Who are these sinners that live forever?

[Acts29]

After the Millennium,
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire,
After the Great White Throne Judgment,
After death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,
After the second death,
After the new heavens and new earth,
After the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth, we read this:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Once death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it would seem that death no longer exists and thus all living will live forever. First, how then can there be "murderers" outside the New Jerusalem if death is dead? Second, who are these sinners in the age to come?

Revelation 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Perhaps, this description can shed some light, though a bit controversial. Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter. This suggests that there are some NOT written in the Book but still live on the earth at that time though unable to enter the city. Does this suggest there are two types of "saved" peoples? One group written in the Book and able to enter the city, and another group not written in the Book and unable to enter the city?

If I may complicate the matter even further, at the GWTJ, ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) It appears that the "Book of Life" is not the same as the "Lamb's Book of Life." Or, not every person is judged that day. Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

 

[Ligurian]

After the Millennium,
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire,
After the Great White Throne Judgment,
After death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,
After the second death,
After the new heavens and new earth,
After the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth, we read this:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Once death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it would seem that death no longer exists and thus all living will live forever. First, how then can there be "murderers" outside the New Jerusalem if death is dead? Second, who are these sinners in the age to come?

Revelation 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Perhaps, this description can shed some light, though a bit controversial. Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter. This suggests that there are some NOT written in the Book but still live on the earth at that time though unable to enter the city. Does this suggest there are two types of "saved" peoples? One group written in the Book and able to enter the city, and another group not written in the Book and unable to enter the city?

If I may complicate the matter even further, at the GWTJ, ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) It appears that the "Book of Life" is not the same as the "Lamb's Book of Life." Or, not every person is judged that day. Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

Revelation is not linear here, right?

Revelation 22:12-15 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Blotted out of the book of life...

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess His name before My Father, and before His angels.

But what do you make of this?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In fact, Revelation is written just like the Prophets wrote... flash forward... flash back... over and over again. It's not a linear document... not a list. The meaning is gotten through your knowedge of the nature of the Father.

 

[d taylor]

After the Millennium,
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire,
After the Great White Throne Judgment,
After death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,
After the second death,
After the new heavens and new earth,
After the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth, we read this:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Once death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it would seem that death no longer exists and thus all living will live forever. First, how then can there be "murderers" outside the New Jerusalem if death is dead? Second, who are these sinners in the age to come?

Revelation 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Perhaps, this description can shed some light, though a bit controversial. Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter. This suggests that there are some NOT written in the Book but still live on the earth at that time though unable to enter the city. Does this suggest there are two types of "saved" peoples? One group written in the Book and able to enter the city, and another group not written in the Book and unable to enter the city?

If I may complicate the matter even further, at the GWTJ, ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) It appears that the "Book of Life" is not the same as the "Lamb's Book of Life." Or, not every person is judged that day. Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

It is referring to the people in the lake of fire they will never enter.

 

[Acts29]

Revelation is not linear here, right?

Revelation 22:12-15 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Blotted out of the book of life...

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess His name before My Father, and before His angels.

But what do you make of this?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In fact, Revelation is written just like the Prophets wrote... flash forward... flash back... over and over again. It's not a linear document... not a list. The meaning is gotten through your knowedge of the nature of the Father.

Are you saying those outside the city of the New Jerusalem is a flashback in time? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Acts29]

It is referring to the people in the lake of fire they will never enter.

Why do you assume they are in the lake of fire? That is an awfully strange way to describe people "outside the city."

 

[d taylor]

Why do you assume they are in the lake of fire? That is an awfully strange way to describe people "outside the city."

Why is it awful, they ended up in the lake of fire because they never received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[Acts29]

Why is it awful, they ended up in the lake of fire because they never received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Not sure I follow.
I am not doubting that some will be "destroyed," both body and soul, having never eaten from the tree of life, in the lake of fire. I am also not doubting those written in the Lamb's book of life. I am just asking how sinners are mentioned, twice, AFTER the New Jerusalem has come.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. ... 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

It seems obvious that there will be nations outside of the NJ walls. Some live in the city, and some around the earth. That makes sense given the dimensions of the city.
Are you suggesting the lake of fire is near the NJ? Near enough to be referred to as "outside" the city? If the sinners are in the lake of fire and doomed forever, why even mention them at all in this portion of scripture?

 

[Ligurian]

Are you saying those outside the city of the New Jerusalem is a flashback in time? That doesn't make sense to me.

The sequence of events in those verses:

14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Did that help you understand what I said about flash-forward and flash-back?

 

[d taylor]

Not sure I follow.
I am not doubting that some will be "destroyed," both body and soul, having never eaten from the tree of life, in the lake of fire. I am also not doubting those written in the Lamb's book of life. I am just asking how sinners are mentioned, twice, AFTER the New Jerusalem has come.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. ... 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

It seems obvious that there will be nations outside of the NJ walls. Some live in the city, and some around the earth. That makes sense given the dimensions of the city.
Are you suggesting the lake of fire is near the NJ? Near enough to be referred to as "outside" the city? If the sinners are in the lake of fire and doomed forever, why even mention them at all in this portion of scripture?

I see this as confirming, that people who while physically alive on earth and rejected God's free offer of Eternal Life.

And will not one day, just spend a little time in the lake of fire being cleansed of their sins. Eventually to be released from the lake of fire to spend eternity with God and the other believers.

They are there for good and will never enter into the New Earth or Jerusalem.

 

[Acts29]

I see this as confirming, that people who while physically alive on earth and rejected God's free offer of Eternal Life.

And will not one day, just spend a little time in the lake of fire being cleansed of their sins. Eventually to be released from the lake of fire to spend eternity with God and the other believers.

Apparently, I am doing a terrible of job of communicating. I am not suggesting people will only spend a little time in the lake of fire. Once there, its over.

They are there for good and will never enter into the New Earth or Jerusalem.

That doesn't seem to fit though.

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ... 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

After the NHNE, after the NJ, THEN we read about sin being kept out of the city. Some can enter the city, and some cannot. If ALL sinners are already in the lake of fire at this point, what is this about? Why suggest those in the lake of fire will not enter the city? That would seem self evident. If ONLY those written in the Lamb's Book of Life even exist on the earth at that time, why say sinners will be kept out? That would also be self evident. Hopefully I made more sense this time.

Also, I'm curious if you think this might apply to explain those who can never enter the city. Could the eternal punishment for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit be that the person can never enter the NJ?

Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[Timtofly]

After the Millennium,
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire,
After the Great White Throne Judgment,
After death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire,
After the second death,
After the new heavens and new earth,
After the New Jerusalem comes down to the earth, we read this:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Once death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it would seem that death no longer exists and thus all living will live forever. First, how then can there be "murderers" outside the New Jerusalem if death is dead? Second, who are these sinners in the age to come?

Revelation 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Perhaps, this description can shed some light, though a bit controversial. Only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter. This suggests that there are some NOT written in the Book but still live on the earth at that time though unable to enter the city. Does this suggest there are two types of "saved" peoples? One group written in the Book and able to enter the city, and another group not written in the Book and unable to enter the city?

If I may complicate the matter even further, at the GWTJ, ANYONE not written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15) It appears that the "Book of Life" is not the same as the "Lamb's Book of Life." Or, not every person is judged that day. Somehow, people not written in the Book still exist after the NHNE.

We understand those written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the saved. We also understand the wicked being cast into the lake of fire, hell. But, there is a third group apparently. So, who are these sinners that live forever?

The Lake of Fire is outside of reality?

 

[d taylor]

Apparently, I am doing a terrible of job of communicating. I am not suggesting people will only spend a little time in the lake of fire. Once there, its over.



That doesn't seem to fit though.

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ... 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

After the NHNE, after the NJ, THEN we read about sin being kept out of the city. Some can enter the city, and some cannot. If ALL sinners are already in the lake of fire at this point, what is this about? Why suggest those in the lake of fire will not enter the city? That would seem self evident. If ONLY those written in the Lamb's Book of Life even exist on the earth at that time, why say sinners will be kept out? That would also be self evident. Hopefully I made more sense this time.

Also, I'm curious if you think this might apply to explain those who can never enter the city. Could the eternal punishment for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit be that the person can never enter the NJ?

Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I still think you are looking past the obvious. that this is simply addressing people who will say that people in the lake of fire will be there just for a time of cleansing from sin.

Then they will be released, that is a belief of many people (it may not be yours) but many people do believe this.

Matthew 12 has nothing to do with this, here is information on Matthew 12.

​

 

[Timtofly]

Why is it awful, they ended up in the lake of fire because they never received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

You mean they never accepted. All recieve a chance to refuse the Atonement.

 

[Acts29]

The Lake of Fire is outside of reality?

Are you guessing or referring to something I said? I don't understand what you mean.

 

[d taylor]

Part 2 of my post on Matthew 12

 

[d taylor]

You mean they never accepted. All recieve a chance to refuse the Atonement.

What, a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life when they trust in The Messiah for God's free gift

 

[Timtofly]

Are you guessing or referring to something I said? I don't understand what you mean.

I asked a question. I was not guessing nor declaring a fact.

At that point, he was referring to any who would change the words he had written.

So either it is all who are outside the gospel from the time he delivered the letters to the 7 churches and the Second Coming; or, it is outside of the reality of the NHNE.

I do not think there is even a lake of fire until the battle of Armageddon. So the lake of fire is already a place 1000 years before heaven and earth pass away, at the GWT event. Yet it is still a reality of it's own outside of the NHNE. It came before the NHNE, it also exist after this reality passes away. So it is not connected to either the present reality nor to the NHNE.

As pointed out. It is either talking about non redeemed in present reality, or the lake of fire which seems to be a separate reality of it's own.

 

[Timtofly]

What, a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life when they trust in The Messiah for God's free gift

Is trusting the same as accepting?

 

[d taylor]

Is trusting the same as accepting?

My comment is really not that mysterious. A person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life when they trust in the Messiah for Eternal Life.

 

[Timtofly]

My comment is really not that mysterious. A person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life when they trust in the Messiah for Eternal Life.

The whole world has recieved this free gift. It was not sent to a certain percentage of the world.