Whos choice is it?

Benedicta00 · Dec 31, 2003

Blackhawk said:
being assumed? It states it pretty plainly. And it ccan't be used to say that we can't do anything but sin after salvation since these verses are describing man in his natural state after tha fall and not the regenerated man. If it was describing the regenerated man then no one could ever have faith.

I just think we have a way different view of original sin. We are still made to God's image before and after the fall. We lost grace and are bound to sin and Christ comes to restore the image that was never lost, just distorted by sin. So I see those verse in a whole nother light I guess.

FreeinChrist · Dec 31, 2003

Blackhawk said:
I won't step into y'all's conversation for too long but what do you mean by qualifying us? Are we saved because God sees something inside us that makes us worthy of salvation?

Well, I'll post the scripture:

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

The word for qualified zoopoieo and means to make alive, to vivify . In this verse, it is an aorist particle active voice the Subject, which is the Father, does the simple action.

Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

As I read these verses, it looks like we are dead in our tresspasses, but He forgives our trespasses and makes us alive by canceling our debt.
So does He make us alive before we repent and believe? (I left out repent in my previous posts - it is important!)
Or is it that we are dead in our sin, we repent and believe, then God forgives and makes us alive together with Him?
From what I gather of the Reformist view, they apparently believe that God comes and makes a person alive, then he repents and then God forgives....but this is not the order I see when reading scripture about salvation.

Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

FreeinChrist · Dec 31, 2003

Dr Dex said:
[Well, if God looks into a human heart and sees something the He did not put there (like some kind of goodness or love for Christ), wouldn't the final, ultimate reason any human being is saved be the condition of their heart? In other words, it looks like what you are saying is that some of us are saved because we are good enough -- apart from God's goodness in us -- to choose Christ. I know you don't mean that, but to me that is what your view must propose.

Please read the posts I have just written. I never wrote that we are saved because God finds us 'good enough".

I am beginning to think that folks are not really reading what I wrote, but are making assumptions that are wrong.

What do you think it means to be made in the image of God?
Think God has to eat?

As the proverb goes, "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool". Our heart, if ever left to itself, would certainly condemn us. It is only by the Spirit's indwelling influence that our heart can turn.

But we don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit unless we have accepted Christ. The Holy spirit is given as a promise (pledge) of our inheritance as children of God.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge

While the Holy Spirit (God) may call us and draw us, He is not indwelling until we are saved.

That's why I would agree with Scriptures that God "grants" repentance.

What scripture is that? I had already erased the scripture you had in this post by accident.

I do know this scripture -
Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I do not see this as being granted to repent, but do see it that because we repent and believe what we are being told, He grants it to us to come to Christ - as we are also given to Christ.

Dr Dex · Dec 31, 2003

What scripture is that? I had already erased the scripture you had in this post by accident.

And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim 2:24-26)

When God grants repentance, He does so by sending His Spirit to break the bonds that sin and the devil have on a human heart. When those bonds are broken, a person will come to their senses and know the truth. Why? Because the deceit of sin and Satan is THE BARRIER to a human's sight of the truth and a love of Christ.

BTW, every person born has a choice, and every person born says "No". God did not make anyone reject Christ. We all come by that rejection quite naturally. But God's mercy works in spite of our rejection, so that by the power of His Spirit we are now morally free to say "yes". And once free, any man would say "yes".

God would be just to leave us all in our captive state and condemn us all. That He has not freed every person born from sin does not make Him unjust.

FreeinChrist · Dec 31, 2003

Dr Dex said:
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim 2:24-26)

When God grants repentance, He does so by sending His Spirit to break the bonds that sin and the devil have on a human heart. When those bonds are broken, a person will come to their senses and know the truth. Why? Because the deceit of sin and Satan is THE BARRIER to a human's sight of the truth and a love of Christ.

Paul is writing to Timothy, a young pastor, about leading a church. I do not believe this verse means that one is initially freed from the devil and then brought repent of their sins and to salvation, but that Paul is talking about those who have been saved, yet need to be rebuked for certain behaviours that have a hold on them. Perhaps they are dealing with gossip or lust, or other things.

Paul wrote alot about salvation and what happens in the act of salvation. IF God "breaks the bonds", and causes the Holy Spirit to dwell within a person BEFORE they have repented and believed, he would have writen about it elsewhere. Instead, he wrote just the opposite.

Dr Dex · Dec 31, 2003

IF God "breaks the bonds", and causes the Holy Spirit to dwell within a person BEFORE they have repented and believed, he would have writen about it elsewhere. Instead, he wrote just the opposite.

Where?

What I see are a lot of promises to send the Spirit SO THAT God's people will repent.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16:14)

We repent, and do so willingly... often passionately. We're not forced to repent when we do not want to, but our hearts are opened by the Spirit to heed the things of God, and so we willingly repent.

Our repentance and faith reveals the presence of Jesus in us. Otherwise, how does a wicked human heart come to repent? By what moral power, if not the power of Christ, can a human heart come to genuine, heart-felt repentance?

orthedoxy · Dec 31, 2003

Reformationist said:
I'm not going to try to explain them because I think you start with an incorrect understanding of most of Scripture so trying to explain particular verses that you pick out to prove your point would be fighting an uphill battle. I will just tell you that I believe Scripture is clear that unregenerate man is morally incapable of inclining himself towards God. He must first be given a heart that desires to serve. God's monergistic act of giving that heart is regeneration.

What is this aversion so many people have to punctuation? I do not disagree that believers shall not perish. What I disagree with is your belief that man, while dead in his trespasses and sins, submits to God. The Bible says, and I quote, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Romans 8:7).

Riiight. Do you realize how silly it sounds to make this claim? Does Jesus come to you and personally preach His Word? If not, you are either relying on your own interpretation or the interpretation of someone you trust. This doesn't make your belief wrong but it most certainly doesn't make it "merely the Bible's opinion."

Faith in God is the means by which He saves us. It isn't separate to salvation. It's part of it.

I'm sticking to the one question. I think I made my point clear, salvation comes after faith from what I showed you.
I believe we can read and understand that if Jesus says your faith saved you, we can conclude the person wasn't saved before faith or else we can’t understand each other's writings.
When you say mere bible opinion, you seem like you disagree with sola scriptura. Have you considered Catholicism?
If I can’t get you to agree with me that salvation comes after faith, after all I've showed you, then I can’t get you to agree with me on anything.

FreeinChrist · Jan 1, 2004

Dr Dex said:
Where?

What I see are a lot of promises to send the Spirit SO THAT God's people will repent.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16:14)

We repent, and do so willingly... often passionately. We're not forced to repent when we do not want to, but our hearts are opened by the Spirit to heed the things of God, and so we willingly repent.

Our repentance and faith reveals the presence of Jesus in us. Otherwise, how does a wicked human heart come to repent? By what moral power, if not the power of Christ, can a human heart come to genuine, heart-felt repentance?

I'm sorry but I disagree with your interpretation of those verses. I see the Lord giving us a His Spirit AFTER we repent and believe - it's part of the new Covenant that He makes with those who come to faith. I do not believe that these verses are saying that He puts His Spirit in us and then we come to believe in Jesus.

Dr Dex · Jan 1, 2004

FreeinChrist,

I see the Lord giving us a His Spirit AFTER we repent and believe - it's part of the new Covenant that He makes with those who come to faith. I do not believe that these verses are saying that He puts His Spirit in us and then we come to believe in Jesus.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)

If a man does not have the Spirit, how does he come to repent? By what moral power, if not the power of Christ, can a human heart come to genuine, heart-felt repentance?

FreeinChrist · Jan 1, 2004

Dr Dex said:
FreeinChrist,

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)

If a man does not have the Spirit, how does he come to repent? By what moral power, if not the power of Christ, can a human heart come to genuine, heart-felt repentance?

A man comes to Christ after being drawn by the Father. The Father speaks to to a person - but that does not mean that person believes and is already saved.
How do you explain the scripture that tells us the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance as children of God. And I also posted other scripture that one is not forgiven until they repent.

Now, in reagards to the scripture above, look at an earlier verse, same chapter. I make certain lines bold.
1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,1Cr 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.}1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Remember that I asked how is man made in the image of God?
In regards to this passage, I do not believe that it supports the position that man is given the indwelling of the Spirit in order to come to faith, rather that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, draws us so that we can come to faith in Christ and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Paul also wrote this:
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Dr Dex · Jan 1, 2004

If a man does not have the Spirit, how does he come to repent? By what moral power, if not the power of Christ, can a human heart come to genuine, heart-felt repentance?

Dr Dex · Jan 1, 2004

A man comes to Christ after being drawn by the Father. The Father speaks to to a person - but that does not mean that person believes and is already saved.

Huh? A person's salvation is justified on the basis of faith. A man is justified by faith. Do you agree with that statement?

So, if the Father sends the Spirit to draw a person, isn't that person already BEING SAVED? God is in the process of saving that person, and the reality of that person's salvation is justified by faith.

What's the big deal?

orthedoxy · Jan 1, 2004

Dr Dex said:
Don,

I'm new here, and you weren't talkin' to me, but I'm going to answer your question anyway.

Salvation is more than just the moment of conversion. If sovereign election is true, then there is a certain sense in which the elect are saved before Creation. If you are equating salvation to our time of justification, then there is a certain sense in which the elect are saved upon the time of faith.

That is why "justification" is an important word. Faith justifies our claim to salvation. We can say we are "saved" because we have faith. However, if a person's faith is a result of God's sovereign work of grace, from God's viewpoint, that person was always "being saved".

So, if Don is elect, he was "being saved" before he had faith, though now that he has faith, he is justified to claim that salvation. Before he had faith, nobody but God knew he was being saved.

If people were not saved before faith then regeneration can’t happen before faith. Also that would be consistent with act 2:38 repent and be peptized then you will receive the holly spirit.
happy new year everyone

FreeinChrist · Jan 1, 2004

Dr Dex said:
Huh? A person's salvation is justified on the basis of faith. A man is justified by faith. Do you agree with that statement?

So, if the Father sends the Spirit to draw a person, isn't that person already BEING SAVED? God is in the process of saving that person, and the reality of that person's salvation is justified by faith.

What's the big deal?

Not exactly. The Spirit DOES NOT indwell an unsaved person. The Spirit will speak to a person, drawing a person to Christ, but the person MUST believe and repent to receive forgiveness. There is no salvation without being forgiven, cleansed and regenerated.

Now the world is in the act of "being saved" so to speak, because Christ already paid the price for sin, once for all, and salvation is available to all who believe. To receive the gift of salvation (forgiveness for sin), however, one must believe, placing their faith in Jesus Christ.

The Greek word for "draw" used in John 6 is 'heikuo' which does not include the use of force. then 'suro' would be used. It is being drawn by love as opposed to force. God does not force our belief.

A person's salvation is justified on the basis of faith. A man is justified by faith. Do you agree with that statement?

My understanding of dikaioo (justify, justification0 is that it is a legal term that means 'to declare a person righteous." It means the person is not undercondemnation by God. Romans 5:19 says that God not only declares us justified, but makes us just - he removes the guilt of sin. He forgives us, He cleanses us.
But we still have to repent and believe to be saved, so that we can be declared righteous.

Now I have answered your questions. Please answer this - since there are several scriptures stating that the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance as children of God, and the same passages described this as happeneing AFTER one believes- how can an unrepenting, unbelieving person be given this pledge?

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

Gabriel · Jan 1, 2004

Once again we have an age old problem. Notice the title of this area. It is for Protestant discussion. This is not the area for non-Protestants to take issue with our beliefs. If you would like to debate, start a formal debate and invite others to join you in the appropriate forum.

From this point forward any non-Protestant who debates in this thread will be given an official warning.

Dr Dex · Jan 1, 2004

Not exactly. The Spirit DOES NOT indwell an unsaved person. The Spirit will speak to a person, drawing a person to Christ, but the person MUST believe and repent to receive forgiveness. There is no salvation without being forgiven, cleansed and regenerated.

Pardon me, but your semantics are not Scriptural. Regeneration is the coming of the Spirit, Who makes real and practical the cleansing of the blood of Christ in a human heart. When He comes there is repentance and faith. Thus, there is no indwelling Spirit in an unsaved person because His coming brings salvation.

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36)

If you saw Pentecost and then heard this statement, wouldn't you be afraid if you were Jewish? Wouldn't you fear God's wrath? What they wanted to know with their question to Peter was how they would be saved from the coming wrath of God. They were not using the term "saved" as you do here. There was no such use of the word in a crowd of Jews. How could there be?

To be saved from this coming wrath, they only had to repent. And who would repent? Those whose hearts had been cleansed by the power of Spirit, whose redeeming presence was purchased by the blood of Christ. Upon a profession of faith, these believers would be filled with the Spirit, and they would most likely speak in tongues.

We can't take 21st century Scofieldian Christianese and reinsert it onto the New Testament. The apostles were writing to people who had seen the Spirit's signs operate on the crowds. That is the experience we need to keep in mind when we read what they wrote to the early church.

Dr Dex · Jan 1, 2004

BTW... I'm very protestant!!!!

FreeinChrist · Jan 1, 2004

I'm protestant too! Was a Baptist for 40 years, and have attended a nondenominational Evangelical church since - so I fit in this forum also.

Dr Dex said:
Pardon me, but your semantics are not Scriptural. Regeneration is the coming of the Spirit, Who makes real and practical the cleansing of the blood of Christ in a human heart. When He comes there is repentance and faith. Thus, there is no indwelling Spirit in an unsaved person because His coming brings salvation.
[/quote}

Well, I disagree very much! My 'semantics' are based on studying the meaning of the language scripture is written.
Regeneration is the translated from the Greek word 'paliggenesia' - means rebirth. Yes, the Spirit is involoved with rebirth...but not til a person repents and believes.

If I understand your position, it's that unregenerate man is incapable of believing in God (not being made in the image of God ?) and therefore, God saves the person, cleanses him, regernerates him with the Holy Spirit - and then the peson is able to to come to a belief and able to repent of sin - having no real choice in the matter at all. God picks one person but not another.
IMHO that flies in the face of the gospel.

How do you explain the OT saints who never had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at all? the indwelling is unique to the New Covenant. Yet there are OT saints.

And I notice you aren't responding to the question I asked regarding the Holy Spirit - in several places in scripture it clearly states the Spirit is given to us as a pledge of our inheritance. You would have me believe contrary to that scripture - and that the pledge is made to those who have not yet repented. You haven't addressed that at all - and looks to me that you just sidestepped it.

We can't take 21st century Scofieldian Christianese and reinsert it onto the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Creative name you came up with. But I don't follow Scofield, and have come to my views of salvation via scripture alone. Nothing you have written disproves what I have gleamed from study.

I would advise against taking verses out of context and instead that one looks at all of what scripture says about salvation and understand that each verse has to fit not only the passage it is in, but also the whole message of God in the Bible.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree???

Dr Dex · Jan 2, 2004

Perhaps we should agree to disagree???

Sounds good to me.

SpiritPsalmist · Jan 2, 2004

*MOD HAT ON*

This forum is not to have debating between the Catholics and the protestants. It is the Protestant/Reformed/Evangelical Room. . .therefore, while those who are not under said title can pose questions, they may NOT debate. Any more debating from said individuals will have their posts removed.

*MOD HAT OFF*

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