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White "development of Papacy" lacking.

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simonthezealot

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My contention is not that Antioch has Authority!

Sorry to rush this out but you are using historical quotes out of context. NONE of those support the contention that Peter had a specific successor as head of the "ENTIRE CHURCH".
Only Rome, and by all accounts, is traceable to PETER AND PAUL.
Where is the proof from the first two hundred years of Christianity that Peter had a successor as the head of the church?

Catholics must prove that the Bishop of Rome is his successor. The Bible does not mention a successor for Peter and early Christian history does not support the contentions of Catholicism.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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My contention is not that Antioch has Authority!

Sorry to rush this out but you are using historical quotes out of context. NONE of those support the contention that Peter had a specific successor as head of the "ENTIRE CHURCH".
Only Rome, and by all accounts, is traceable to PETER AND PAUL.
Where is the proof from the first two hundred years of Christianity that Peter had a successor as the head of the church?

Catholics must prove that the Bishop of Rome is his successor. The Bible does not mention a successor for Peter and early Christian history does not support the contentions of Catholicism.

I thought I gave some information from the first two hundred years... say 33AD to 232 AD.

Maybe it is not PROOF in the way a court would demand but it has proofs none the less. I think we also have scripture that backs it as well as Traditions.

We have a line of 266 Popes starting with Peter and each and everyone has a record.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I do not know what else to say.

Jack :)
 
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simonthezealot

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I thought I gave some information from the first two hundred years... say 33AD to 232 AD.

Maybe it is not PROOF in the way a court would demand but it has proofs none the less. I think we also have scripture that backs it as well as Traditions.

We have a line of 266 Popes starting with Peter and each and everyone has a record.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I do not know what else to say.

Jack :)

Jack,
Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome, as I mentioned outside of some vague references from Irenaeus NO body recognized their universal authority until much later.(ie.4th century)
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Jack,
Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome, as I mentioned outside of some vague references from Irenaeus NO body recognized their universal authority until much later.(ie.4th century)

I posted references besides Irenaeus.

It is clear to me that there has been a seat of Peter since Jesus gave Peter the Keys and that this seat is of dynastic nature.

This is scriptural becasue in Matthew 16:19 Jesus gave Peter the Keys and no where else are they referenced and the ECF support this. Also, scripture backs it because the Gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews and made issue with Jesus being the Son of David. If we then see Matthew 16:19 with Isaias 22 we see that just like the Key of David House we have the Keys of Jesus' Kingdom. Scripturally this was well known to the Jews around 33AD. Also the Key(s) are of a dynastic nature and give the holder the authority of the King.

But I also provided many supporting quotes from ECF from 80 AD and Up.

So, I truly feel that I made a good case.

More importantly this thread was about this guy stating that the Catholic Church took writings out of context to validate what he calls lies or misinterpretations. Yet, I have seen no reference to any of these in pur posts. So, as far as I can determine we have proofs for the Catholic Church and not one for the guy in the Original Post.
 
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simonthezealot

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I posted references besides Irenaeus.

It is clear to me that there has been a seat of Peter since Jesus gave Peter the Keys and that this seat is of dynastic nature.

This is scriptural becasue in Matthew 16:19 Jesus gave Peter the Keys and no where else are they referenced and the ECF support this. Also, scripture backs it because the Gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews and made issue with Jesus being the Son of David. If we then see Matthew 16:19 with Isaias 22 we see that just like the Key of David House we have the Keys of Jesus' Kingdom. Scripturally this was well known to the Jews around 33AD. Also the Key(s) are of a dynastic nature and give the holder the authority of the King.

But I also provided many supporting quotes from ECF from 80 AD and Up.

So, I truly feel that I made a good case.

More importantly this thread was about this guy stating that the Catholic Church took writings out of context to validate what he calls lies or misinterpretations. Yet, I have seen no reference to any of these in pur posts. So, as far as I can determine we have proofs for the Catholic Church and not one for the guy in the Original Post.
Jack, no offense but maybe you should read through this thread again... Every point with an ecf you made..I answered that is what White is talking about, you can pc together a group of things to make something look legit but upon closer exam it isn't as such.
 
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Trento

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Jack,
Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome, as I mentioned outside of some vague references from Irenaeus NO body recognized their universal authority until much later.(ie.4th century)


Protestant scholars give the same list.

History Of The Christian Church


Volume II. Ante-Nicene Christiainity


by Philip Schaff Protestant Patristic Scholar






The whole number of popes, from the Apostle Peter to Leo XIII. (1878) is two hundred and sixty-three. This would allow about seven years on an average to each papal reign. The traditional twenty-five years of Peter were considered the maximum which none of his successors was permitted to reach, except Pius IX.
 
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Protestant scholars give the same list.

History Of The Christian Church

Volume II. Ante-Nicene Christiainity

by Philip Schaff Protestant Patristic Scholar

The whole number of popes, from the Apostle Peter to Leo XIII. (1878) is two hundred and sixty-three. This would allow about seven years on an average to each papal reign. The traditional twenty-five years of Peter were considered the maximum which none of his successors was permitted to reach, except Pius IX.

Still says nothing about the "popes" "universal authority", which is the point of STZ post you quoted:

Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Still says nothing about the "popes" "universal authority", which is the point of STZ post you quoted:

Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome

Is there any proof against the Pope's authority the first 200 or so years??? :confused:
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Jack, no offense but maybe you should read through this thread again... Every point with an ecf you made..I answered that is what White is talking about, you can pc together a group of things to make something look legit but upon closer exam it isn't as such.

When I posted about ECF mentioning the Keys of Peter the reference to the 'Keys' has not been considered by you.

When we see a writing from the ECF referencing Peter with the Keys, even if Paul is included in such a quote, there has to be an understanding of what is meant by the 'Keys'.

Why don't we touch on that?
 
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Trento

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Still says nothing about the "popes" "universal authority", which is the point of STZ post you quoted:

Just cuz the RCC gives a list of 266 popes it doesn't mean that anyone recognized the Universal authoriity now claimed by Rome


Maybe you overlooked this post.



Protestan Patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly in his classic work Early Christian Doctrines sums up how unanimous the Church was in the patristic period, evidence becomes overwhelming for the primacy and authority of the Papacy --
"Everywhere, in the East no less than the West, Rome enjoyed a special prestige, as is indicated by the precedence accorded without question to it....Thus Rome's preeminance remained undisputed in the patristic period. For evidence of it the student need only recall the leading position claimed as a matter of course by the popes, and freely conceded to them, at the councils of Ephesus (431) and Chalcedon (451). We even find the fifth-century historians Socrates and Sozomen concluding...that it was unconstitutional for synods to be held without the Roman pontiff being invited or for decisions to be taken without his concurrence. At the outbreak of the Christological controversy, it will be remembered, both Nestorius and Cyril hastened to bring their cases to Rome, the latter declaring that the ancient custom of the churches constrained him to communicate matters of such weight to the Pope and to seek his advice before acting. In one of his sermons he goes so far as to salute Celestine as 'the archbishop of the whole world' .....It goes without saying that Augustine [c. 354 - 430 AD] identifies the Church with the universal Catholic Church of his day, with its hierarchy and sacraments, and with its centre at Rome..The student tracing the history of the times, particularly of the Arian, Donatist, Pelagian and Christological controversies, cannot fail to be impressed by the skill and persistence with which the Holy See [of Rome] was continually advancing and consolidating its claims. Since its occupant was accepted as the successor of St. Peter, and prince of the apostles, it was easy to draw the inference that the unique authority which Rome in fact enjoyed, and which the popes saw concentrated in their persons and their office, was no more than the fulfilment of the divine plan." (Kelly, pages 406, 407, 413, 417)
Protestant Historical scholar Harnack recognizes the original teacher here.
Ignatius is our first external witness in regard to the Roman Church in 110AD. After making allowances for exaggeration of language in his letter to the Romans, it remains clear that Ignatius assigns a de facto primacy to the Roman Church among its sister churches and that he knew of an energetic and habitual activity of this church in protecting and instructing other churches. The Church and Infallibility pg. 140 (c. 1954
Taking into account the phenomenon of development, the notion of primacy needs to be established first. The Church of Rome enjoyed a Primacy over the other Churches from the earliest period for which we have records with indications that this priority was not an innovation. Dr. Harnack claimed that "The Roman Church from the end of the first century possessed a de facto primacy in Christendom" (Mission und Ausbreitung pg. 398).
Phillip Schaff Protestant Patristic and historical scholar-- HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH
CHAPTER IV:
In the external organization of the church, several important changes appear in the post apostolic period before us. The distinction of clergy and laity, and the sacerdotal view of the ministry becomes prominent and fixed; subordinate church offices are multiplied; the episcopate arises; the beginnings of the Roman primacy appear; and the exclusive unity of the Catholic church develops itself in opposition to heretics and schismatics. The apostolical organization of the first century now gives place to the Catholic episcopal system.


Protestant J.B. Lightfoot Church historian scholar-- commenting on Clements letter to the Cornithians A D 90
'It may perhaps seem strange to describe this noble remonstrance as the first step towards papal dominion. And yet undoubtedly this is the case'
St. Clement of Rome, pg 698.
 
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simonthezealot

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.....It goes without saying that Augustine [c. 354 - 430 AD] identifies the Church with the universal Catholic Church of his day, with its hierarchy and sacraments, and with its centre at Rome..The student tracing the history of the times, particularly of the Arian, Donatist, Pelagian and Christological controversies, cannot fail to be impressed by the skill and persistence with which the Holy See [of Rome] was continually advancing and consolidating its claims. Since its occupant was accepted as the successor of St. Peter, and prince of the apostles, it was easy to draw the inference that the unique authority which Rome in fact enjoyed, and which the popes saw concentrated in their persons and their office, was no more than the fulfilment of the divine plan." (Kelly, pages 406, 407, 413, 417)

Trento,
Short of going through this piece by piece, I chose one paragraph of yours and highlighted a different part... No it reads differently...If Kelly believed what you claim he did he'd be Catholic, Try reading Kelly and Schaff in context my friend.
 
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simonthezealot

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Thanks!

As Arnold would say "I'll be back" :D

In answer to this...V
Is there any proof against the Pope's authority the first 200 or so years??? :confused:
About the mid 3rd century, there was a disagreement concerning baptism, and the bishop of Rome took a stance on the issue that was opposite the other bishops in the West and East.
Cyprian of Carthage, held a council with many other bishops, and the council opposed the position on baptism taken by the bishop of Rome and others. Cyprian wrote this, about that occasion:

For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there. (Proceedings of the council of Carthage)
 
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JacktheCatholic

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In answer to this...V

About the mid 3rd century, there was a disagreement concerning baptism, and the bishop of Rome took a stance on the issue that was opposite the other bishops in the West and East.
Cyprian of Carthage, held a council with many other bishops, and the council opposed the position on baptism taken by the bishop of Rome and others. Cyprian wrote this, about that occasion:

For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there. (Proceedings of the council of Carthage)

I believe this was answered previously...
 
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simonthezealot

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Anastasius, the bishop of Rome, refers to Theophilus, bishop of Alexandria, as "shepherd", "the careful watchman", and "the shipmaster". He refers to how Pope Theophilus "watches over" the church:
"It is felt right that a shepherd should bestow great care and watchfulness upon his flock. In like manner too from his lofty tower the careful watchman keeps a lookout day and night on behalf of the city. So also in the hour of tempest when the sea is dangerous the shipmaster suffers keen anxiety lest the gale and the violence of the waves shall dash his vessel upon the rocks. It is with similar feelings that the reverend and honourable Theophilus our brother and fellow-bishop, ceases not to watch over the things that make for salvation, that God's people in the different churches may not by reading Origen run into awful blasphemies." (Jerome's Letter 95:1)
Can there be much doubt that the bishop of Alexandria is the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth, with jurisdictional primacy over all Christians?
 
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simonthezealot

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The Apostolic Constitutions has no concept of a papacy. Instead, it refers to local church leaders as holding the highest offices under God's authority:

"Wherefore both the presbyters and the deacons are those of authority in the Church next to God Almighty and His beloved Son....The bishops of every country ought to know who is the chief among them, and to esteem him as their head, and not to do any great thing without his consent; but every one to manage only the affairs that belong to his own parish, and the places subject to it. But let him not do anything without the consent of all; for it is by this means there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified by Christ, in the Holy Spirit." (8:44, 8:47:35)
 
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Trento

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Anastasius, the bishop of Rome, refers to Theophilus, bishop of Alexandria, as "shepherd", "the careful watchman", and "the shipmaster". He refers to how Pope Theophilus "watches over" the church:
"It is felt right that a shepherd should bestow great care and watchfulness upon his flock. In like manner too from his lofty tower the careful watchman keeps a lookout day and night on behalf of the city. So also in the hour of tempest when the sea is dangerous the shipmaster suffers keen anxiety lest the gale and the violence of the waves shall dash his vessel upon the rocks. It is with similar feelings that the reverend and honourable Theophilus our brother and fellow-bishop, ceases not to watch over the things that make for salvation, that God's people in the different churches may not by reading Origen run into awful blasphemies." (Jerome's Letter 95:1)
Can there be much doubt that the bishop of Alexandria is the infallible Vicar of Christ on earth, with jurisdictional primacy over all Christians?


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]St. Athanasius, Arianism, and the Holy See[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"...what we have received from Blessed Peter the Apostle, that I declare to you..."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times](Pope Julius I to the Eusebians, Athanasius Apol 35, c. 340 AD) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"...to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]the head[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times], that is to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]the See of Peter the Apostle[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times], the bishops of the Lord shall refer from all provinces..."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times](orthodox Catholic bishops to Pope Julius I, Council of Sardica, c. 343 AD)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times] Edward Giles Documents page 105, In Hilary Frag 2, PL 10:639][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]St. Athanasius Assembles a Council to Address Pope Julius
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Athanasius assembled in consequence a great Council at Alexandria of more than eighty Bishops, which addressed to Julius and to all Bishops a lengthy defense. [1] This letter was taken to Rome by the envoys of Athanasius. When their arrival became known to Macarius (the priest who had brought the letter to Eusebius) he left hurriedly in the night. His companions, two deacons, were unable to reply to the statements of the Egyptians, so they demanded a synod, and requested the Pope himself to be judge. [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Commentary on Pope Julius as Judge (Socrates, Sozomen, others)[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]It is best to give the words of the authorities: (Athanasius, Apol c. Arian 20):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"The Eusebians (or Eusebius) also wrote to [Pope] Julius, and thinking to frighten us, they asked for a Council to be called, and that Julius himself, if he wished, should be judge."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Socrates, (H.E. ii, II):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Eusebius having accomplished what he desired, sent an embassy to Julius, Bishop of Rome, calling upon him to be the judge of the charges against Athanasius, and to summon the case to Himself."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Sozomen, (H.E. iii, 7):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Eusebius...wrote to Julius that he should be judge of what had been decreed at Tyre."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Here Sozomen copies Socrates, who has himself misunderstood the passage of Athanasius. This last must be interpreted by another passage of the same Saint. (Hist Arian, ad mon. 9):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"The priests sent by them also asked for the same thing (viz. a synod) when they saw that they were refuted."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]So the letter of Pope St. Julius (Ap Athan Apol c. Arian 22):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Those who were sent by you Eusebians with letters (I mean thte priest Macarius, and the deacons Martyrius and Hesychius) when they were here, not being able to reply to the priests of Athanasius who had come, but being confuted and convicted in all points, thereupon asked us that a synod might be convoked, and to write to Alexandria to bishop Athanasius and to the Eusebians that the just judgment might be arrived at in the presence of all."[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]From this it is clear that the letter of Eusebius had not asked for a synod or for the Pope as judge. This was only an insincere pretext of the envoys used to avoid an immediate condemnation.[/FONT]
Julius made no objection to this, and at once wrote both to the Bishop of Alexandria and to his accusers summoning them to a synod, the time and place of which they themselves could decide.
Meanwhile the Emperor Constantius had intruded another Bishop at Alexandria, Gregory the Cappadocian, with the greatest violence. Athanasius escaped and obeyed the summons of the Pope, arriving at Rome just after Easter, 399.[2]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Athan Apol c. Arian 20 and Hist. Arian ii; Pope St. Julius (Ap Athan Apol c. Arian 29):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"For he did not come of himself, but was summoned by letters from us, as we wrote to you."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Theodoret, (H.E. ii, 3):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Athanasius, knowing their plot, retired, and betook himself to the West. For to the Bishop of Rome (Julius was then the Shepherd of that Church) the Eusebians had sent the false accusations which they had put together against Athanasius. And he, following the laws of the Church, both ordered them to repair to Rome, and also summoned the divine Athanasius to judgment. And he, for his part, started at once on receiving the call; but they who had made up the story did not go to Rome, knowing that it would be easy to see through their falsehood."[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Sozomen, (iii, 10):[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Julius learning that it was not safe for Athanasius to remain in Egypt then, sent for him to Rome."[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Pope Julius Summons the Eusebians[/FONT]

The accused having presented himself, but his accusers, whose representatives had demanded the Council, not having put in an appearance, Pope St. Julius sent them another summons, fixing the end of the year as the limit of patience. The Eusebians retained the legates until the term was passed and only allowed them to return in the January following (340), bearing a letter from their meeting at Antioch, the tenor of which has been preserved by Sozomen (iii, 8):
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Having assembled at Antioch, they wrote to Julius an answer elaborately worded and rhetorically composed, full of irony and containing terrible threats. For in their letter they admitted that Rome was always honored as the school of the Apostles and the metropolis of the Faith from the beginning, although the teachers had settled in it from the East. [3] But they did not think they ought to take a secondary place because they had less great and populous Churches, since they were superior in virtue and intention. They reproached Julius with having communicated with Athanasius, and complained that their synod was 'insulted and their contrary decision made null,' and they accused this as unjust and contrary to ecclesiastical law. Having thus reproached Julius and complained of his ill-usage, they promised, if he would accept the deposition of those whom they had deposed and the appointment of those whom they had ordained, to give him peace and communion; but if he withstood their decrees, they would refuse this. For they stated that the earlier Eastern Bishops had made no objection when Novatian was driven out of the Roman Church. But they wrote nothing to Julius concerning their acts contrary to the decisions of the Nicene Council, saying that they had many necessary reasons to give in excuse, but that it was superfluous to make any defense against a vague and general suspicion of wrong-doings." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Socrates merely has:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"They complain with great acerbity to Julius, declaring that he must make no decrees if they wished to expel some from their Churches, for they did not contradict him when (the Romans) drove Novatus from the Church," (ii, 15).[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Both historians mistakenly place this letter after an imaginary restoration of Athanasius and others to their Sees by the Pope.[/FONT]
Eusebius of Nicomedia seems to have been dead when this letter was written. In the autumn of 340 the Council was at length assembled at Rome, and met in the church of the priest Vito, who had been Papal Legate at Nicaea. Not only Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria, and Marcellus, bishop of Ancyra in Galatia, were present, but also many bishops from Thrace, Coelesyria, Phoenicia and Palestine, who had taken refuge in Rome. Besides, deputies came from Alexandria and elsewhere, complaining of the continued acts of violence and barbarity perpetrated in the name of the Eusebian party. Priests from Egypt and Alexandria deplored that many Bishops were prevented from coming, and some, even confessors, were beaten and imprisoned, while the Catholic people were oppressed and persecuted. Bishops had been exiled for not communicating with the Arians. Similar outrages had occurred at Ancyra in Galatia.
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Pope Julius Responds to the Eusebians[/FONT]
The council gave peace and communion to Athanasius and Marcellus, the orthodoxy of the latter being warmly upheld by Athanasius and Julius. At the instance of the bishops, the Pope at length replied, in the name of all to the unseemly letter of the Eusebians. His lengthy and important epistle is preserved complete in St. Athanasius apology.

The letter from the Easterns, says Pope St. Julius, was improper and proud, in answer to his own letter, which was full of love; even their apparent flattery was ironical. Out of charity Julius had not published their letter for a long time, until he was forced to give up all hope that any of them would attend the Council. Their studied eloquence was of no value. They ought to have been glad of a synod, even had it not been attended by their own envoys. The Council of Nicaea had set the example of revising the decision of former synods.
"If you say that every Council is unalterable, who is it, pray, who sets Councils at naught? The Arians were expelled by that of Nicaea, and yet they are said to be received by you. They are condemned by all, while Athanasius and Marcellus have many defenders. In fact, Athanasius was not convicted of anything at Tyre, and the acts in the Mareotis were invalid, being draw up by one party only."​
The Pope then speaks of affairs at Alexandria, of envoys sent to Rome by the usurping Gregory, and of the intruded bishop Pistus. The Eusebians asserted that the Western condemnation of Novatian, and the Eastern condemnation of Paul of Samosata, had been respected by all, and subject to no revision. Why, then, did they not similarly respect the Council of Nicaea? They had violated that Council also by frequent translations of Bishops from See to See. Bishops, they said, were not measured by the greatness of their cities; why, then, were the Eastern bishops not content with a small city? (This refers, above all, to Eusebius, who from being bishop of Berytus had changed to the city of Nicomedia, where the Court frequently was [4], and then had usurped the see of Constantinople, newly-founded capital.)

continued on the next post
 
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Trento

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They complained that the time appointed was too short, but they kept the legates till January. This letter, like the former one, was in the name of all; but the former was addressed only to those who had written to Rome.
"Our admission of Athanasius and Marcellus to communion was not rash. We had the former letter of Eusebius, and now this letter of yours, and the letter of the bishops of Egypt and of others in favor of Athanasius. Your first and second letters did not agree; the Egyptian bishops were on the spot. Arsenius is still alive, and the evidence from the Mareotis, is a mere party statement. Athanasius waited here a year and a half, and his mere presence puts his accusers to shame, since he showed his confidence by obeying our summons. Is it we or you who act against the canons, when you ordained a bishops at Antioch, thirty-six stages distant, and sent him with soldiers to Alexandria? If Athanasius had been really convicted at Tyre, you should have made another bishop years ago, when he was exiled in Gaul.​

"When we had sent to summon a Council you could not prejudge the matter. The violence exercised at Alexandria is terrible, and you call it peace! As for Marcellus, he denied your charges; his confession was approved by the priests Vito and Vincentius (the Papal representatives at Nicaea); Eastern as well as Western bishops were at the Council, and deputies from the East, complaining of violence and that bishops were prevented from coming by force or banishment. We hear that only a few are the causes of this schism. If you really believe that anything can be proved against Marcellus and Athanasius, let any come to accuse who wish to do so, and we will have a fresh trial."​

The next sentence I will give in full:
"For if really, as you say, they did some wrong, the judgment ought to have been given according to the ecclesiastical canon and not thus. You should have written to all of us, so that justice might have been decreed by all. For it was Bishops who were the sufferers; and it was not obscure Churches which have suffered, but Churches which Apostles in person ruled. With regard to the Church of Alexandria in particular, why were we not consulted? Do you now know that this has been the custom, first to write to us, and thus for what is just to be defined from hence? If, therefore, a suspicion of this sort fell upon the bishop of that place, it was necessary to write to the Church here [Rome]. But now, though you gave us no information, but have done as you pleased, you ask us to give our agreement, though we have not ourselves condemned. These are not the statutes of Paul, these are not the traditions of the Fathers; this is another rule, a new custom. I beseech you to bear willingly what I say, for I write for the common welfare, and what we have received from Blessed Peter the Apostle, that I declare to you."

[ Edward Giles has: "And why were we not written to especially about the church of the Alexandrians? Are you ignorant that the custom was first to write to us, and then for justice to be determined from here? If then the bishop there was at all suspect, it should have been reported in writing to the church here. As it is they failed to inform us, but acted as they pleased, and now want to obtain our concurrence, though we have not condemned him. Not so the statutes of Paul [1 Tim 5:19,20], not so have the fathers handed down; this is another model, and a new procedure. I beseech you, readily bear with me: what I write is for the common good. For what we have received from the blessed apostle Peter, that I point out to you; and as I believe these things to be obvious to all, I should not have written if the events had not distracted us...." ] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times][5][/FONT]​
This famous passage plainly declares that "the Church here" (not the Church of the West, but obviously, the Church of Rome), and no other, was able to judge the bishop of Alexandria, who ranked in order next after the Pope.
Pope St. Julius solemnly states that he is giving the tradition handed down from Peter, as the successor of whom he speaks. But the first part of the quotation is more general; it says that, "according to the ecclesiastical canon," in a case of deposition shops on such a large scale, the whole West -- "all of us" -- should have been consulted.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Commentary from Eastern Historians (Socrates and Sozomen)[/FONT]

It is extremely interesting to see how this sentence was understood a century later by two Eastern historians. Socrates thus commences his summary of this famous letter:
"Julius, writing back to those who were assembled at Antioch, reproved them, first, for the bitterness of their letter, then for acting contrary to the canons, because they had not invited him to the synod, since the ecclesiastical canon orders that the Churches shall not make canons against the judgment of the bishop of Rome." (ii, 17)​

Sozomen has evidently copied him:
"He wrote blaming them for making stealthy innovations in the Nicene dogma, and for not inviting him to the synod, contrary to the laws of the Church, saying that it was a sacerdotal law that what was done against the will of the Roman bishop was null and void." (iii, 10).
The statement that Julius complained of not being invited to their Council is a mistake. The famous assertions that the ecclesiastical law invalidated any canons disapproved by the bishops of Rome is doubtless implied in his letter, but it is not stated. It is remarkable that the two Greek historians of the following century read into the letter of the Pope the claim which they thought it natural he should make. They also state that Julius, by letter, restored other Eastern bishops to their Sees, "by reason of the prerogative possessed by the Roman Church," on the ground that the care of all belonged to him, on account of the dignity of his See," but these letters are lost
 
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