While we were yet sinners...

[Reformationist]

Hey Ben. I'm sitting here wondering how long it's been since I actually read a post of your's rather than just counted the number of colors you use.

By the way, I'm just picking at you so please don't be offended.

God bless

 

[Ben johnson]

Ohhhh, Don, this was one of my SHORTER posts...

I like to use BLUE when quotin' Scripture. Sometimes a strong point demands to be BOLDED (or capitalized, different emphasis). But a really-really STRONG point, whyyyy that just SCREAMS fer RED!

Previous post --- often John 10:26 is taken to mean, "you do not believe in ME because you are not ELECT (pre-chosen) SHEEP". But it's easy ta' shew that it means, "You don't believe My Messiahship because you haven't believed in ME."

I stand by whut ah sayd, about 10:9 meaning "if tis-ANONE enters, he BECOMES a sheep".
"Ah meant whut ah sayd, and ah said whut ah meant...." (Isn't that a Sues book?)

And if yer' not really readin' mah POSTS, that would jus' DEPRESS me. (Well, a LITTLE bit anyway...)

 

[nobdysfool]

Ohhhh, Don, this was one of my SHORTER posts...

I like to use BLUE when quotin' Scripture. Sometimes a strong point demands to be BOLDED (or capitalized, different emphasis). But a really-really STRONG point, whyyyy that just SCREAMS fer RED!

Previous post --- often John 10:26 is taken to mean, "you do not believe in ME because you are not ELECT (pre-chosen) SHEEP". But it's easy ta' shew that it means, "You don't believe My Messiahship because you haven't believed in ME."

I stand by whut ah sayd, about 10:9 meaning "if tis-ANONE enters, he BECOMES a sheep".
"Ah meant whut ah sayd, and ah said whut ah meant...." (Isn't that a Sues book?)

And if yer' not really readin' mah POSTS, that would jus' DEPRESS me. (Well, a LITTLE bit anyway...)

Well, nayow, is thet yer Okie accent comin' threw? Ah di'nt think Okies had thet much of an accent....'least they didn't when ah was in Tulsa...les'see...it was back in '99, ah reckon.....

Seriously, let's take a look at that passage:

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Joh 10:24-28)

What I see here is this: The Jews came to Him and said, "Why do you tease us? If You're the Messiah, just come out and say it!"

Jesus replies, I told you (I am the Messiah), but you didn't believe Me. What you see Me doing in God's Name are the proof that I am the Messiah."

"But here's the reason: you don't believe Me because you are not one of Mine. I told you that My sheep hear My voice, and I know who they are, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they won't ever perish and no one will take them away from Me."

This refers back to what He said previously:

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. (Joh 10:14)

[size=+0]"I am the Good Shepherd, and I know my sheep, and my sheep know Me."

Jesus is referring to His previous statements in John 6.

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (Joh 6:36-39)

"You've seen Me, but you don't believe."

"All those who the Father gives me will come to me, and I won't turn him away or cast him away from Me."

"I'm not here to do My own will, but the Will of My Father. It is His will that of all those whom He gives Me, I won't lose a single one of them, but will raise them all up on the last day."

Ben, I don't know where you're getting your circuitous ideas about these passages, they clearly state what is obvious. Believing in Jesus and believing He is Messiah are not two separate things. Jesus didn't say what you say He said, He said plainly that the root of their confusion was due to them not being one of His, because His sheep know Him and He knows them. The word "know" here carries the idea of trust, an intimacy of familiarity and common bond. These people did not have that with Him.

Why?

Because , as Jesus tells them, they are not His, as evidenced by the very fact that they don't believe.

Since it is the Father who gives people to Jesus to save, and Jesus saves all who the Father gives Him, It's pretty easy to see that it is God the Father who chooses who He gives to Jesus. God chooses, THEN they believe.

You want to say that they BECOME chosen BY their belief,

but Jesus makes it plain that

belief is evidence of being chosen, not the cause of it.
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[Reformationist]

Okay Ben. I'll give it a shot.

Paul said in 1Tim4:10, "He is the Savior of ALL MEN, malista believers." "Malista" according to Strong's Greek, is "chiefly, above all".

Okay. So malista means "especially, chiefly, most of all, above all," right? We immediately hit a HUGE snag in your position, IMO. You say, "This seems to present the UNIVERSAL OFFER of salvation, conditioned upon BELIEF." The HUGE problem, as I see it, is that you have completely changed what the text actually says. You are not just debating the meaning of what it says. You are changing "IS the Savior of all men" to "is the OFFERER of salvation to all men." Don't you see that in your hypothesis 1 Tim 4:10 no longer says that God saves anyone but rather that He offers to save people if they will merely believe? There are numerous other theological hurdles to overcome. You may be able to help with that, though in light of your first obstacle I think they become unnecessary. Either God DOES save believers or He doesn't. If you reduce His role to nothing more than He who offers salvation rather than He who saves you have destroyed the message of the Gospel.

So, let me assume that your point was merely that God DOES, in fact, save people but that it is conditional upon their belief. Now we come to the next problem, as I see it. You are faced with having to come up with a God centered answer to a question that is, for me, the easiest question of my theology. Why do some believe and some don't? That, my friend, is my main question to you. And when you answer this question, I encourage you to remember the words of the very same author of this letter to Timothy wherein Paul tells us that our salvation is by grace through faith so we have no reason to boast. I have often heard your attempt to explain away faith as not being the gift that is "not of yourself." Please explain to me how we can be saved by something that is of ourselves but not be boasting. In all actuality, if you claim that the faith that serves as the vehicle for God's grace is of ourself, then you are boasting. The most you can do at that point is deny that it is boasting.

No, not everyone is "sheep". But let's be careful about Jn10:26
("You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.")WHAT is it that do they not believe? They don't believe that He is the MESSIAH.

Okay. The Jews don't believe He is the Messiah. I agree.

Will you consider a point of view?

Sure.

What if Jn10:9 ("I am the door, if TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture.") --- what if this means that ANYONE who BELIEVES (enters), willl be SAVED, will BECOME SHEEP?

Ben, if you can prove that being the sheep is the result of believing rather than believing being the result of being the sheep then prove it. Prove it lexicographically, contextually, Scripturally, however. What we cannot do is seek to prove something by first assuming that it's already true. If your belief can be shown to be reliable with the rest of the Gospel then show it to be so. The sheep of God were always known to God. There are no surprises to God. It's not as if the number of sheep was ever in doubt, right? If you agree then we are now at the point where we must determine how someone becomes the sheep. Are we the sheep because we chose to be the sheep or are we the sheep because God chose us to be His sheep before the foundations of the earth. I would love to hear your assessment. I will offer my own, which you already know. We aren't chosen because He knew we would choose Him. We are chosen that God's purpose according to election would be fulfilled. It is not of he who runs nor of he who wills. He will have mercy on whomever He will have mercy.

If you CONSIDER that, then verse 26 becomes correctly understood:
"You do not believe that I am the Messiah, because you have not believed in ME."

No this is not "double-talk" (saying, "you do not believe Me because you have not believed Me"), it's saying "if you had ACCEPTED what I TOLD you, that I am sent from God, if you had RECEIVED Me and BELIEVED, then just as Peter knew, you would then have also known that I am the Messiah.

You see, when Jesus talked with Peter in Matt16:15-17 (" 'Who do you say I am?' Peter said, 'You are the Messiah.' Jesus said, 'Blessed are you ...for My Father has revealed this to you.' ") --- compare this with John8:42 ("If God WAS your Father THEN you would love ME") --- and doesn't it seem more aligned with, "You believe in God, believe also in Me (Jn14:1); if you BELIEVE/RECEIVE Me, THEN you will know that I'm the Messiah"? Doesn't that fit better, than: "if God ELECTS you THEN you know I'm the Messiah"?

I'm sorry Ben but NONE of this, I repeat NONE of this, makes the least bit of sense, at least not to me. I'm sorry but it doesn't sound anything at all like the Gospel of God.

Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah, because Peter believed and loved Jesus. It was THROUGH his belief that he understood Jesus' Messiahship.

How can you do this Ben? You post a verse that shows Christ telling Peter that he knows Jesus is the Messiah because the Father revealed it to him and then say Peter knew that Jesus was the Messiah because he believed and loved Jesus. It makes no sense. It is nonsensical to say that Peter believed Jesus was the Messiah because Peter loved Jesus. The passage says that "flesh and blood has NOT revealed this to you yet you are contending that flesh and blood DID reveal the truth of Jesus' Messiahship to Peter.

And in Luke22:32, Jesus prays that Peter NOT FAIL IN HIS FAITH. Jesus worried about Peter's salvation.

Ben, the main purpose of that entire account of Christ's prayer for Peter's faith to not fail was to show the power of Christ's intercessory prayer in the lives of His chosen and to show the contrast between Peter, for whom the Lord DID pray, and Judas, who was chosen before the foundation of the world as the vessel of wrath who delivers the Lord.

I think Jn10:9 really says "IF you (anyone) enter Me, THEN you will become My sheep".

So we become His sheep by entering? Is that your position? Also, if we become His sheep by entering then I assume that you believe that we can cease to be His sheep by leaving, right?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

You want to say that they BECOME chosen BY their belief,

but Jesus makes it plain that

belief is evidence of being chosen, not the cause of it.

Amen.

God bless