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Which Translation

I am a Reformed/Calvinist Christian and use the

  • NIV

  • KJV

  • NKJV

  • NLT

  • ESV

  • HCSB

  • The Voice

  • NASB

  • NIRV

  • other


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TaylorSexton

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In the end, in every single manuscript tradition—whether long lost manuscripts, or the majority of extant manuscripts, or the Byzantine tradition, or some kind of "ecclesiastical text," or the Textus Receptus itself—there are variants, copyist errors, insertions, and deletions that simply must be dealt with. And, as my Hebrew professor just told us recently, choosing to ignore these variants (for whatever reason) is still engaging in textual criticism. Erasmus engaged in it, the Reformers all engaged in it, the AV translators engaged in it, and modern translators/editors engage in it. The fact remains that all of the problems raised by those who are against textual criticism (which, in reality, is impossible) can be raised right back at them.

The fact remains that Scripture has not changed. It is not some metamorphose entity that changes at textual critics' (which is what, again, every editor of the biblical text since its writing has been) every whim. We have God's Word in our hands.
 
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AMR

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While likely to be a point of contention, but my view is as follows.

When we approach holy Scripture we must make a choice—we either stand to be judged by the Word of God, or we sit in judgment upon it.

When I am confronted with conflicting versions of Scripture translations, I am compelled to make a choice, for I believe the holy scriptures are to be read with an high and reverent esteem of them; with a firm persuasion that they are the very word of God (WLC-Q.157). If we are taught from Scripture to hear the word of the Lord, that is, to hear and not bring up all manner of questions criticizing the word of God, then this convinces me that I cannot in good conscience hold conflicting versions in reverent esteem as if both versions are the word of God.

Again, Scripture calls upon believers to "hear the Word of the Lord"—to hear, not to raise critical questions. Accordingly, the early church prefaced the public reading of holy Scripture with the summons to hear the Word of the Lord. Likewise, Reformed piety taught that the holy scriptures are to be read with an high and reverent esteem of them; with a firm persuasion that they are the very word of God" (WLC, answer 157). It is contrary to Reformed piety to allow two different translations which contradict each other, all the while esteeming them both as the Word of God.

For me this begins with the confession that the divine revelation of God is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and that I and others who so confess the same are the real successors of Peter, all speaking by the influence of the Holy Spirit.

When I examine what version was predominantly quoted from by the Reformers and the Puritans that have come before me, the KJV of the Byzantine manuscript tradition excels because the version

(1) drew upon the best Hebrew and Greek manuscripts;
(2) was translated with a conservative philosophy of translation;
(3) deployed great wisdom when using transliteration;
(4) matched the majesty of the style of Scripture in dignified and very elegant English;
(5) when read according to the purpose for which the Scriptures were delivered by God, is easily understood; and,
(6) makes the sense of Scripture clearer through the use of italicized words.

I admit that some complain that the KJV uses English that was not spoken by English-speaking persons of any time in history. Nevertheless, the KJV represents a written composition and there is no reason to argue that written composition need be something widely spoken—a fact that any student of English composition must admit.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I am not a KJBOnlyist. Moreover, I concede that there are renderings in the AV which can be improved, and I can envisage a day when the English-speaking churches will recover their visible unity and the task of faithful "revision" can commence again. Until such time, God willing, we should bear with the occasional "archaism" in the AV. If the NT could borrow words from the dated vocabulary of the Greek version of the OT, then I see nothing wrong with bearing with a few antiquated expressions for the sake of adhering to what I consider and confess to be the most faithful rendering of the inspired Scriptures.

Concerning the question as to the aforementioned priority of translation or confession—if we follow the path of the enlightenment, which lives in the dreamy world of uncorrupted human reason, follows the myth of neutrality, and insists upon the right of private judgment, then translation naturally comes first.

On the other hand, if we follow the path of Christian discipleship, which acknowledges the noetic effects of the fall, the absolute necessity of spiritual illumination, and the constant requirement to engage in self-denial, then confession must be placed in the forefront.

Accordingly, I believe there should be one official Bible in the Reformed church. The fact is, that the AV held that place among English speaking people for centuries, while no modern version has reached the same status. Without an official Bible, the church effectively says, we do not know where the word of God is to be found in the English language. Children of the Reformation should use the Scriptures of the reformation.

Those who have not studied the history of translations may be unaware of this, but the Reformers and Puritans had good cause to reject certain works in that era which called themselves the Word of God. In the Reformed period, Castellio; and in the Puritan period, the Rheims. Perhaps more astonishing and dismaying is the fact that these rejected translations have borne an influence on modern versions which "reformed" people so readily accept. One example which comes to mind is to be found in John Knox's work on Predestination, wherein he rejects the Anabaptist's Pelagian rendering of Gen. 4:7; that rendering is now to be found in every modern version.

The AV was made by men who each and every one upheld the Thirty-Nine Articles. They acknowledged versions that were made by "men of their own profession" as the Word of God. Can anyone point to a modern version to be made by men who upheld the Reformation standard? The fact that so much of the earlier versions is in the AV should demonstrates how much continuity existed between the Reformation versions. The fact that so little of the AV is to be found in the modern versions is clear evidence of a departure that ultimately leads to dilution and division within the Reformed churches.

So for those that are churchmen who have covenanted with a visible vestige of Our Lord's Bride, it is the church that has spoken about what it considers the very word of God. For many within my Reformed tradition, the text that has been received by the church relies upon the TR within the Byzantine tradition of manuscripts. For those adrift outside church membership, the translation being used is but a personal choice, or for those outside the church that use the AV, it is but a choice that borrows from the intellectual and spiritual capital of the Reformed kinsmen who translated the AV.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Again, Scripture calls upon believers to "hear the Word of the Lord"—to hear, not to raise critical questions.

Absolutely. However, when one encounters variants, omissions, and additions (which occur in absolutely every manuscript tradition), which word is one supposed to hear?

Concerning the question as to the priority of translation or confession—if we follow the path of the enlightenment, which lives in the dreamy world of uncorrupted human reason, follows the myth of neutrality, and insists upon the right of private judgment, then translation naturally comes first.

On the other hand, if we follow the path of Christian discipleship, which acknowledges the noetic effects of the fall, the absolute necessity of spiritual illumination, and the constant requirement to engage in self-denial, then confession must be placed in the forefront.

What is implied here—which is that those who use any other text but the TR is less spiritual and less Christian—is very disturbing, overly heated rhetoric to me.

Without an official Bible, the church effectively says, we do not know where the word of God is to be found in the English language.

Good, because God's Word was not written in English. God's Word is to be found in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Hebrew.

For many within my Reformed tradition, the text that has been received by the church relies upon the TR within the Byzantine tradition of manuscripts.

...as a result of textual criticism performed by the Reformers and those before them.
 
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JM

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Italics are words added by the translators to improve reading comprehension.

I just want to apologize for posting so carelessly. Dr. White is not guilty of anyone's unbelief or sin, each one of us is... Dr. White is a godly man, tremendous scholar and my words were used carelessly.

I apologize.
 
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AMR

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Absolutely. However, when one encounters variants, omissions, and additions (which occur in absolutely every manuscript tradition), which word is one supposed to hear?
The one your church professes to be the word of God. When the pastor reads from Scripture to the congregants and declares this is the word of God, then the this is what the ordained servant hopefully believes is indeed the word of God, for that is his duty as the exhorter of the faith. Hence my post discussing the confessional view that one is to come to hear the word of God, not sit in judgment of it.

What is implied here—which is that those who use any other text but the TR is less spiritual and less Christian—is very disturbing, overly heated rhetoric to me.
No. The context of my post is one's confession as to the what Scripture declares. My confession was made clear therein. Yours may differ, and what I have stated and you quoted remains undisturbed. One must stand for something or fall for everything and my post speaks to how I stand, not necessarily how others do.

Good, because God's Word was not written in English. God's Word is to be found in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Hebrew.
I do not disagree with the languages that were used in the autographs. I disagree that the apographa cannot be considered inspired. I adopt the WCF’s distinctive reformed view by noting that the WCF’s identifying the Hebrew and Greek texts as authentical in no way requires a direct reference to the Hebrew and Greek autographaas if some scaffolding for mounting an argument for infallibility is required. No, the arguments for (1)a received text free from major error (discounting scribal errors), and (2)Scripture as our infallible rule of faith and practice, rest upon the examination of the apographa we have received, as transmitted via the providential, preserving care of God from faithful copies.

AMR
 
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Tree of Life

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I would agree that it would be a problem to uphold two translations which differ so significantly that contradictions are created. But I have never seen this to be the case with any legitimate translation. The KJV, NASB, ESV, and NIV certainly differ but I do not know them to contradict one another. Could you cite an example?
 
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JM

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I would agree that it would be a problem to uphold two translations which differ so significantly that contradictions are created. But I have never seen this to be the case with any legitimate translation. The KJV, NASB, ESV, and NIV certainly differ but I do not know them to contradict one another. Could you cite an example?
Rev. Winzer on the Puritan Board had a thread where he pointed out the superiority of the AV compared to other translations. The AV was always more Reformed. :)
 
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AMR

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I would agree that it would be a problem to uphold two translations which differ so significantly that contradictions are created. But I have never seen this to be the case with any legitimate translation. The KJV, NASB, ESV, and NIV certainly differ but I do not know them to contradict one another. Could you cite an example?
Did you read my post wherein I cited one example?
 
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TaylorSexton

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The one your church professes to be the word of God. When the pastor reads from Scripture to the congregants and declares this is the word of God, then the this is what the ordained servant hopefully believes is indeed the word of God, for that is his duty as the exhorter of the faith. Hence my post discussing the confessional view that one is to come to hear the word of God, not sit in judgment of it.


No. The context of my post is one's confession as to the what Scripture declares. My confession was made clear therein. Yours may differ, and what I have stated and you quoted remains undisturbed. One must stand for something or fall for everything and my post speaks to how I stand, not necessarily how others do.


I do not disagree with the languages that was used in the autographs. I disagree that the apographa cannot be considered inspired. I adopt the WCF’s distinctive reformed view by noting that the WCF’s identifying the Hebrew and Greek texts as authentical in no way requires a direct reference to the Hebrew and Greek autographaas if some scaffolding for mounting an argument for infallibility is required. No, the arguments for (1)a received text free from major error (discounting scribal errors), and (2)Scripture as our infallible rule of faith and practice, rest upon the examination of the apographa we have received, as transmitted via the providential, preserving care of God from faithful copies.

AMR

Thanks for clarifying. That was very helpful. I apologize. Perhaps I let my zeal for some sort of balance (in my own view) overtake me, allowing me to read into your comment what was not there. I assumed too much.

Thanks, brother.

Now, off to do word studies for school tomorrow.
 
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Tree of Life

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Did you read my post wherein I cited one example?

I missed it. Going back I see a reference to Genesis 4:7. Is that the one?

The MT is: הֲל֤וֹא אִם־תֵּיטִיב֙ שְׂאֵ֔ת וְאִם֙ לֹ֣א תֵיטִ֔יב לַפֶּ֖תַח חַטָּ֣את רֹבֵ֑ץ וְאֵלֶ֙יךָ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ וְאַתָּ֖ה תִּמְשָׁל־בּֽוֹ׃

A literal rendering of this would be: "Not if you will do well lifting up? But if you will not do well at the door sin is crouching. And against you is his desire. But you shall rule over him."

This obviously needs cleaning up. I would render it: "If you do well will you not be lifted up? But if you do not do well sin is crouching at the door. It's desire is for you but you must rule over it."

The KJV renders it: "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

The ESV renders it: "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

The NIV renders it: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

The NASB renders it: "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

The only significant difference I see is how they render the final verb. KJV renders it like a command or even a promise - "you shall rule over it". The others render it as a command - "you must rule over it". The verb itself is Qal imperfect and so both of these senses fit within its semantic range.

All that to say, I don't see the contradiction. What am I missing?
 
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TaylorSexton

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All that to say, I don't see the contradiction. What am I missing?

It's the 3rd person masculine singular pronominal suffix on תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ (his desire). The King James translates this woodenly, making the case that the reference here is not sin (which in Hebrew is feminine, not masculine), but Abel. However, here is Iain Duguid, board member of the HCSB translation committee, professor of Hebrew at WTS, and thoroughly Reformed Christian:

"It's not quite that simple. In Genesis 4:7 you have a feminine subject ("sin" - the word never means a sin offering in Genesis) joined to a masculine verbal noun ("crouching"). This kind of grammatical disagreement between subject and verb isn't especially unusual in Hebrew. So then the question of the antecedent becomes "Is it a reference to some completely implicit antecedent (Abel has not been mentioned by the Lord in his speech to Cain) or is it the preceding masculine participle ("Sin is a croucher at the door: it's (i.e. the croucher's) desire is toward you..." Both are possible, whatever translation is adopted (see Poole's discussion, for example). Neither one rests on or resolves the grammatical issue. I suspect that Matthew is right that larger considerations of the themes of the book (and perhaps concern over a verse that may otherwise seem to support human ability to conquer sin) will push interpreters one way or the other. It is an interpretive rather than translational issue, however."

This quote can be found here. It is post #21.
 
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Tree of Life

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It's the 3rd person masculine singular pronominal suffix on תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ (his desire). The King James translates this woodenly, making the case that the reference here is not sin (which in Hebrew is feminine, not masculine), but Abel.

I see now, thanks. As you know, since there is no neuter gender in Hebrew the masculine pronoun can also mean "it". That the pronominal suffix would be referring to Abel seems simply incorrect to me. As Duguid has noted, it's not entirely uncommon for there to be disagreement between the gender of a noun and pronouns or even verbs.

Furthermore, there is a clear parallel between what God says here and the curse he put on marriage in Genesis 3:16 - "your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." The expression refers to a power struggle. Just like, because of sin, there is a power struggle in marriage so there will be a power struggle between Cain and sin - each trying to control the other.

So I don't think that the KJV is wrong - it can be translated "his desire" and "rule over him". Indeed, if it were rendered thus I would see it as a veiled reference to the serpent we just met in chapter 3. But a connection to Abel here I think is mistaken.

But still, I see no contradiction between translations in this small detail.
 
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TaylorSexton

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As you know, since there is no neuter gender in Hebrew the masculine pronoun can also mean "it".

The problem is that it does have a feminine pronominal suffix (ךְ-), which would have been perfectly accessible for this verb if "sin" (which in Hebrew is feminine, not neuter) were the intended grammatical object.
 
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Tree of Life

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The problem is that it does have a feminine pronominal suffix (ךְ-), which would have been perfectly accessible for this verb if "sin" (which in Hebrew is feminine, not neuter) were the intended grammatical object.

That's true. What if the serpent is in view?
 
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TaylorSexton

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That's true. What if the serpent is in view?

That seems unlikely seeing how far we are both textually and temporally from the context of the Fall (I would say at least 20 years, but maybe much longer given Gen. 5:3). Furthermore, he is nowhere to be found in the Cain and Abel pericope.
 
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That seems unlikely seeing how far we are both textually and temporally from the context of the Fall (I would say at least 20 years, but maybe much longer given Gen. 5:3). Furthermore, he is nowhere to be found in the Cain and Abel pericope.

But the image of a crouching animal sortof fits with a serpent ready to strike.
 
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TaylorSexton

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But the image of a crouching animal sortof fits with a serpent ready to strike.

Eh, maybe. I still think it is quite a remarkable stretch linguistically, not to mentioned a strange interpretation of the personification given to sin. Keep in mind, we are talking about what the grammatical object is. It is very rare (if not impossible; I can't think of a single instance) for a mere pronominal suffix to be referring to a noun that hasn't been so much as hinted at for seventeen verses.
 
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