Which Protestant Body...

[gzt]

The conservative Anglicans are really close

This heavily depends on what kind of conservative Anglicans you're talking about. Evangelical, Reformed, quasi-Catholic, etc are all legitimate options. Frankly, I find more Evangelical Anglicans among conservatives than other things.

 

[gzt]

This heavily depends on what kind of conservative Anglicans you're talking about. Evangelical, Reformed, quasi-Catholic, etc are all legitimate options. Frankly, I find more Evangelical Anglicans among conservatives than other things.

But I would definitely say a conservative Anglican who aligns with Anglo-Catholics is probably closest to Orthodox by virtue of their proximity to Catholicism.

 

[CelticRebel]

I actually would agree on the salvation similarities between the original Anabaptists (traditional, not modern) and Orthodoxy (albeit there are many differences in other areas of belief). Many modern shoots off the Anabaptists started to add in penal substitution and minimize the concept of working out our salvation within their soteriology beliefs.

Case in point, look at Article 8 in this link to the Mennonite USA's statement of faith: http://mennoniteusa.org/confession-of-faith/salvation/

It combines the three views of salvation including substitutionary atonement. It really is quite similar to most Protestant viewpoints on salvation. The Church of the Brethren (at least my aunt and uncle's church) doesn't teach anything similar to the Orthodox view of salvation. They teach a viewpoint very similar to what we were taught when I was a Pentecostal.

Yes, that's why I emphasized the early Anabaptists and Quakers.

 

[CelticRebel]

I'm loving this thread! This is the kind of discussion I had hoped for when I first came here. I had read all kinds of scholarly books about the EOC, but I wanted to hear firsthand from EOC members -- and others, too, who wanted to contribute.

 

[All4Christ]

Yes, that's why I emphasized the early Anabaptists and Quakers.

Yup...just wanted to clarify though for anyone who isn't familiar with that. If someone expects to walk into modern anabaptist churches - they most likely won't experience the same things as the early anabaptists!

 

[All4Christ]

Here's the text from that web page:

"1 God so loved the world that, in the fullness of time, God sent his Son, whose faithfulness unto death on the cross has provided the way of salvation for all people.2 By his blood shed for us, Christ inaugurated the new covenant.3 He heals us, forgives our sins, and delivers us from the bondage of evil and from those who do evil against us.4 By his death and resurrection, he breaks the powers of sin and death,5 cancels our debt of sin,6 and opens the way to new life.7 We are saved by God’s grace, not by our own merits.8"

I'm just about as hostile to penal substitution as anyone, but I don't see it here. What specific part of this would orthodox object to? They've mostly strung together many of the Biblical terms used to refer to Christ's death.

It's in the footnotes.

 

[CelticRebel]

Yup...just wanted to clarify though for anyone who isn't familiar with that. If someone expects to walk into modern anabaptist churches - they most likely won't experience the same things as the early anabaptists!

I think you're right.

 

[CelticRebel]

But Orthodoxy holds a unique view of atonement, of sin and of soteriology.

I'd like to see you write more on this.

 

[CelticRebel]

There is a considerable difference in the soteriology of Eastern Orthodoxy and all forms of Protestantism. There would be much issue.

Could you elaborate? I would like to see more of what you have to say on this.

 

[Wryetui]

The West lost the Orthodox mysticism with their rationalism, and things like penal substitution happened, that's why us Orthodox have the "New Adam" theory regarding Christ.

 

[All4Christ]

For anyone interested in watching a lecture on the Orthodox perspective of salvatiom...check out this YouTube video of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware at the Seattle Pacific Palmer lecture series. I am watching it right now

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would agree, btw, that some similarities exist strongly between Anabaptists and Orthodoxy.

And I'm glad to hear of mainline distancing themselves somewhat from PSA.

This question is impossible to definitively answer though, because it runs across a blanket of areas of belief. If it were very narrow and specific, it might be possible to determine who is "most like" the Orthodox on a particular point. But when you include a range of considerations, everyone diverges, in different ways and to different degrees.

In some things you might even see more similarities between some Pentecostals with Orthodoxy, compared with other Protestants, and I see no one mentioned them, because they are very different in so many other ways as to overshadow similarities.

It's really a complex question. Still one worth asking, and the discussion is good. . But just not one that can be definitively answered.

 

[hedrick]

It's in the footnotes.

I assume this is the relevant footnote:

“By canceling our debt of sin, Christ is a sacrifice and pays the ransom on our behalf (substitutionary atonement).”

But this is substitution only in a general sense. I wouldn’t call it penal substitution. Indeed this statement could just as well be called the ransom theory, which I thought at least some Eastern writers held.

Do Orthodox deny all substitutionary implications of the atonement? Do you not apply Is 53 to Christ’s death? That is certainly substitutionary in the same broad sense.

————

Incidentally, the new look can produce some odd effects, because the signature isn’t so clearly separated from the posting. At first I thought you were objecting to Psalm 51.

 

[All4Christ]

I would agree, btw, that some similarities exist strongly between Anabaptists and Orthodoxy.

And I'm glad to hear of mainline distancing themselves somewhat from PSA.

This question is impossible to definitively answer though, because it runs across a blanket of areas of belief. If it were very narrow and specific, it might be possible to determine who is "most like" the Orthodox on a particular point. But when you include a range of considerations,. everyone diverges, in different ways and to different degrees.

In some things O you might even see more similarities between some Pentecostals with Orthodoxy, compared with other Protestants, and I see no one mentioned them, because they are very different in so many other ways as to overshadow similarities.

It's really a complex question. Still one worth asking, and the discussion is good. . But just not one that can be definitively answered.

Agreed, regarding Pentecostals having similarities, beneath the very visible differences

Pentecostals and salvation are different then many other Protestants.

Similar to Orthodoxy, Pentecostals believe that Christ's resurrection was for the world, not limited to a select group of people. Atonement in Pentecostal theology is used in conjunction with healing, as they believe that the atonement provided by Christ provides the ability for man to be healed. They believe in substitutionary atonement, and they also maintain the 'Christ as victor' theology. Most do believe in the concept of 'working out our salvation'. They believe that sanctification (at least in the AoG) is not a second blessing, but rather a lifelong process. A big difference between Orthodoxy and Pentecostals is the belief in the St. Augustine flavor of original sin, although the concept of how Christ saves us from sin (and its relationship to healing for all of mankind), seems to differ from the teachings of most western viewpoints of original sin. One interesting version of Pentecostal soteriology maintains that faith is not sufficient for salvation. Rather, it is a means towards attaining salvation. Salvation, in their view, requires water baptism, spirit infilling (separate from a declaration of faith), and a continually working out of their faith until the end of their lives. They even maintain that this was often done by the laying of hands from the apostles to those who were water baptized. The big big difference is their belief of speaking in tongues being the sign of Holy Spirit baptism (which as I said in other posts, is not held by all Pentecostals).

 

[All4Christ]

I assume this is the relevant footnote:

“By canceling our debt of sin, Christ is a sacrifice and pays the ransom on our behalf (substitutionary atonement).”

But this is substitution only in a general sense. I wouldn’t call it penal substitution. Indeed this statement could just as well be called the ransom theory, which I thought at least some Eastern writers held.

Do Orthodox deny all substitutionary implications of the atonement? Do you not apply Is 53 to Christ’s death? That is certainly substitutionary in the same broad sense.

————

Incidentally, the new look can produce some odd effects, because the signature isn’t so clearly separated from the posting. At first I thought you were objecting to Psalm 51.

I will write more soon, because my keyboard typing is about 3 seconds ahead of my computer...and I am very frustrated! I believe that my objections to their explanation is partially due to other articles I have read from Mennonite sources which interpret the Substitutionary atonement to be penal substitutionary atonement. I can post those later , of you'd like. also, they are missing some key points of salvation, especially the working out salvation through our life. granted, they didn't preclude that, but it isn't something typically taught in the churches I have been at. It is an incomplete viewpoint of salvation, even if the other articles aren't taken into account.

I understand your confusion with the signature! Rest assured, I have no objections to any verse in Psalms

 

[CelticRebel]

I think this is an interesting article. I believe it puts the early Anabaptists closest to Orthodoxy on the atonement. I'd be interested in comments.

http://www.directionjournal.org/30/2/atonement-in-anabaptist-theology.html

Here also is an article which says that the early Quakers (Fox, Penn, Barclay) held the Christus Victor view of the atonement:

http://digitalcommons.georgefox.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1331&context=quakerstudies

 

[gzt]

We are not opposed to substitutionary atonement, we are opposed to the Reformed idea: penal substitutionary atonement. This article on the wikipedia may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement

 

[CelticRebel]

We are not opposed to substitutionary atonement, we are opposed to the Reformed idea: penal substitutionary atonement. This article on the wikipedia may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement

Yes, I understand that, and that is one my strongest agreements with Orthodoxy -- its rejection of PSA. However, I must say that I do have a problem with the idea of substitutionary atonement in general.

 

[CelticRebel]

The following will probably get me into trouble, as it has elsewhere:

I reject the notion that a blood sacrifice was necessary for God to forgive our sins. I believe that animal sacrifice in the OT was never required by God but was an influence from pagan culture. The OT prophets declared that God required mercy and not sacrifice.

 

[hedrick]

We are not opposed to substitutionary atonement, we are opposed to the Reformed idea: penal substitutionary atonement. This article on the wikipedia may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement

Then I don't see why the Mennonite statement bothers you. I think you may be reading penal substitution into statement that don't advocate it.