Which Perpetrator deserves our mercy: Preacher, Prostitute or Policeman?

[Par5]

I watched the video and I thought it was a rather sordid affair with all the ingredients of a sordid affair, betrayal, hypocrisy, greed and revenge. Not much room for sympathy for any of them. For mercy, I will read forgiveness. That surely would be up to the victims in this affair, the preacher's wife, the policeman's wife/partner(if he has one) the prostitutes children. I say the latter because it is very possible that her children will suffer ridicule at the hands of other kids if they find out the mother is a prostitute.
Prostitution may be one of the oldest professions in the world, but not one I would recommend, nor would I recommend anyone to avail of such a profession. There is the risk of contracting a sexually transmitted disease and the women run the additional risk of being subjected to violence.
I said earlier that I did not have much room for sympathy for any of those involved in this affair, but nonetheless, I think it is very sad that a woman finds it necessary to sell herself for sex. For those men who are ok with that, I wonder if they would be ok with their wife/partner telling them that she intended to earn a bit of extra money by going on the game?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's great. If you could show morality being used in any way in the definition of "job" in a dictionary you could show me that someone other than you uses it that way.


Okay, so if she's a lazy prostitute she isn't doing her job...

Okay, not sure that explains why prostitution isn't a job.

Ahh, so you'd call murder "a job" but you won't call prostitution "a job". Weird. A hitman is still performing a service for money, that's why it's called "a job".

You're the one who dedicated a whole post to this semantic claim. I just thought it was strange. I thought it was a cheap point to make too.

...you said you wanted me to 'show' you. So I did, but it appears you didn't really comprehend half of what I was saying, Nick, which is strange because I've usually found you to be somewhat sharper in the past than you appear to be here at the moment.

What is it you'd 'like' for me to accommodate in my ethical thinking when it comes to various moral issues such as prostitution? Do you want me to add in some Humanism? Or some Moral Relativism? Or some recognition of other people's feelings or social plights in life?

As I've already told one of the other persons posting in my thread here, I'm not one of the ones who selected 'none' in my OP poll.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I watched the video and I thought it was a rather sordid affair with all the ingredients of a sordid affair, betrayal, hypocrisy, greed and revenge. Not much room for sympathy for any of them. For mercy, I will read forgiveness. That surely would be up to the victims in this affair, the preacher's wife, the policeman's wife/partner(if he has one) the prostitutes children. I say the latter because it is very possible that her children will suffer ridicule at the hands of other kids if they find out the mother is a prostitute.
Prostitution may be one of the oldest professions in the world, but not one I would recommend, nor would I recommend anyone to avail of such a profession. There is the risk of contracting a sexually transmitted disease and the women run the additional risk of being subjected to violence.
I said earlier that I did not have much room for sympathy for any of those involved in this affair, but nonetheless, I think it is very sad that a woman finds it necessary to sell herself for sex. For those men who are ok with that, I wonder if they would be ok with their wife/partner telling them that she intended to earn a bit of extra money by going on the game?

I think I agree with just about everything you've said here, Par5, and it's nice to know that we can agree at least on this subject or on some slice of this subject. The only caveat I'd make is that I do have empathy for all three people, but I think mercy, if it is to be meted out, should come in the form of requiring each of them to attend rehabilitation services of some kind, and the preacher and the policeman should probably lose their jobs since those require the upholding of ethical standards.

 

[Moral Orel]

...you said you wanted me to 'show' you. So I did, but it appears you didn't really comprehend half of what I was saying, Nick, which is strange because I've usually found you to be somewhat sharper in the past than you appear to be here at the moment.

What is it you'd 'like' for me to accommodate in my ethical thinking when it comes to various moral issues such as prostitution? Do you want me to add in some Humanism? Or some Moral Relativism? Or some recognition of other people's feelings or social plights in life?

As I've already told one of the other persons posting in my thread here, I'm not one of the ones who selected 'none' in my OP poll.

I'm not trying to convince you that prostitution isn't immoral. I'm just pointing out that you're using the word "job" in a really weird way if performing a service for money isn't "a job". Maybe it's because you're trying to read more into what I'm saying than what I'm actually saying that you're not understanding. I'm not addressing your ethical thinking at all. I'm addressing your use of the English language. You made a semantic point about what a job is, and I challenged it because it's weird. Some jobs are immoral jobs. So what? Why does that make it not "a job"?

 

[gaara4158]

No one “deserves” mercy. Mercy is by definition a suspension of justice, which is what everyone actually deserves. Hence I voted none.
As for the morality of each player and whether we should afford sympathy or empathy to each of them, I can easily say yes to the prostitute, and maybe the police officer too. The prostitute, while admittedly engaging in illicit activity, isn’t responsible for the transgressions of her clients and I don’t consider sex work to be inherently immoral. The police officer may be hypocritical in his use of the prostitute’s services while simultaneously plotting to expose someone doing the exact same thing, but his motives are understandable even if not entirely pure. It is more difficult for me to sympathize or empathize with this preacher who’s supposed to be a moral pillar of his community, exposing sexual betrayals when he sees them, then turning around and doing the exact same thing. And the cherry on top is he apologizes to God in the video instead of his wife and the community that trusted him to be a man of integrity, the real victims of his transgressions.

 

[Dave-W]

Carried to extremes, if prostitution were legal, then even wives -could- charge their husbands for sex.

That happens all the time.

My oldest step brother was charged $100 every time by his wife - and that was back in 1970.

 

[Dave-W]

If wives did that, marriage would certain cease.

they are still married.

 

[RDKirk]

That happens all the time.

My oldest step brother was charged $100 every time by his wife - and that was back in 1970.

Dave-W, the stuff you say about your family....

....As I've said before, your family is an outlier.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No one “deserves” mercy. Mercy is by definition a suspension of justice, which is what everyone actually deserves. Hence I voted none.

Ok. That makes sense.

As for the morality of each player and whether we should afford sympathy or empathy to each of them, I can easily say yes to the prostitute, and maybe the police officer too. The prostitute, while admittedly engaging in illicit activity, isn’t responsible for the transgressions of her clients and I don’t consider sex work to be inherently immoral.

You might have to explain to me how sex work isn't immoral. Personally, I think prostitution is often a form of subjugation born out of economic or psychological desperation. But from what I understand of it, it can also just as easily come about due to having been enslaved to do so.

The police officer may be hypocritical in his use of the prostitute’s services while simultaneously plotting to expose someone doing the exact same thing, but his motives are understandable even if not entirely pure.

Yes, it does strike me as hypocritical. I'm not sure I'd want the guy to serve as an officer in my city if he lacks the ethical backbone to resist being entangled with a prostitute.

It is more difficult for me to sympathize or empathize with this preacher who’s supposed to be a moral pillar of his community, exposing sexual betrayals when he sees them, then turning around and doing the exact same thing. And the cherry on top is he apologizes to God in the video instead of his wife and the community that trusted him to be a man of integrity, the real victims of his transgressions.

Yes, if I remember correctly from decades ago, his part in all of this was particularly questionable. I'm not sure that if I had been a church leader who oversaw his case that I'd 're-employ' him as a pastor at any church ...

Do you think that in the U.S. Christians are too lite on ministers who morally step out of bounds in this way?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's great. If you could show morality being used in any way in the definition of "job" in a dictionary you could show me that someone other than you uses it that way.


Okay, so if she's a lazy prostitute she isn't doing her job...

Okay, not sure that explains why prostitution isn't a job.

Ahh, so you'd call murder "a job" but you won't call prostitution "a job". Weird. A hitman is still performing a service for money, that's why it's called "a job".

No, I'm saying that the lexicographers "report" that one of the usages of the concept of 'job' is one associated with that of how a hit-man might use it. Personally, I don't count the way a hit-man uses the word "job" to be a bona-fide form of expression, just like I don't think his line of work is salutary in any shape or form, so to me, it's not a job, and neither is the activity associated with prostitution. While I do understand that language is malleable, I don't appreciate that someone in the Mafia or in a local Brothel might casually attempt to paper over the true nature of their activity by using a word that sounds otherwise innocuous.

You're the one who dedicated a whole post to this semantic claim. I just thought it was strange. I thought it was a cheap point to make too.

I think we're not quite understanding each others context. I'm trying to come at this equivocation of word usages from within the general framework of Symbolic Interactionism.

 

[Moral Orel]

Personally, I don't count the way a hit-man uses the word "job" to be a bona-fide form of expression, just like I don't think his line of work is salutary in any shape or form, so to me, it's not a job, and neither is the activity associated with prostitution.

But that's not how anyone else uses the word that I have ever seen or any lexicographer has ever "reported". So I guess you can refuse to use the word "job" if you want, but anyone else who uses it will still be using it right.

While I do understand that language is malleable, I don't appreciate that someone in the Mafia or in a local Brothel might casually attempt to paper over the true nature of their activity by using a word that sounds otherwise innocuous.

And if a hitman told me, "Hey, I'm just doing my job" I'd have a problem with that too. Sure he's doing his job, but it isn't "just a job" (but it's still a job).

I think we're not quite understanding each others context. I'm trying to come at this equivocation of word usages from within the general framework of Symbolic Interactionism.

If you were to suggest that we shouldn't treat hooking like just any old job, I'd agree. If you were to say that we should discourage people from wanting to hook as a job, I'd agree. If you wanted to say that hooking is a job no one should want to aspire to, I'd agree. But you took it too far in a really bizarre direction by saying it isn't a job. By most accounts, it's a bad job, but it's still a job.

I'll say this about the morality of it. I don't find it inherently evil like you do just because I can imagine some unusual, unlikely scenarios that I would be okay with it, but by and large hooking is almost always a bad decision. For instance, I already had the talk with the wife that we're taking an Indecent Proposal if someone offers. I don't even care how handsome the guy is, if he wants to spend a million bucks for one night with me, she darn well better take the money!

 

[gaara4158]

You might have to explain to me how sex work isn't immoral. Personally, I think prostitution is often a form of subjugation born out of economic or psychological desperation. But from what I understand of it, it can also just as easily come about due to having been enslaved to do so.

Unless you’re prepared to condemn manual labor and the entire service industry, I don’t think the fact that sex work might come in the form of slavery or from economic desperation is enough to deem the line of work as inherently immoral. Remember, sex isn’t the only trade for which people have been enslaved or economically pressured into. There would have to be some measurable negative effect on society that comes directly as a result of (legal) prostitution to convince me that it’s inherently immoral. I don’t see sex workers as any different from masseurs, dancers, or entertainers.

Yes, if I remember correctly from decades ago, his part in all of this was particularly questionable. I'm not sure that if I had been a church leader who oversaw his case that I'd 're-employ' him as a pastor at any church ...

Do you think that in the U.S. Christians are too lite on ministers who morally step out of bounds in this way?

Absolutely, and not just in the U.S. The Catholic Church is a huge perpetrator of sweeping the immorality among its ranks under the rug all over the world. It’s disgusting.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But that's not how anyone else uses the word that I have ever seen or any lexicographer has ever "reported". So I guess you can refuse to use the word "job" if you want, but anyone else who uses it will still be using it right.

See entry 3b:

Definition of JOB

And if a hitman told me, "Hey, I'm just doing my job" I'd have a problem with that too. Sure he's doing his job, but it isn't "just a job" (but it's still a job).

You're missing my point, which is why you aren't understanding what I'm getting at. I'm simply saying there are people who have used the word 'job' to mean some type of activity for gain of just any type; and I'm saying that I never---myself---use that word to apply to either immoral or criminal activity. I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who do, such as a hitman or perhaps a prostitute might do. It's just that if they do, I think they're being obscurantists when doing so.

If you were to suggest that we shouldn't treat hooking like just any old job, I'd agree. If you were to say that we should discourage people from wanting to hook as a job, I'd agree. If you wanted to say that hooking is a job no one should want to aspire to, I'd agree. But you took it too far in a really bizarre direction by saying it isn't a job. By most accounts, it's a bad job, but it's still a job.

I agree with you, and you qualification in that last sentence above is part of the point. YOU had to add an adjective to qualify the usage. A hitman probably won't; he'll just call his assassination activity 'a job.'

Anyway, we can drop this little semantic tangent, if you'd like.

I'll say this about the morality of it. I don't find it inherently evil like you do just because I can imagine some unusual, unlikely scenarios that I would be okay with it, but by and large hooking is almost always a bad decision. For instance, I already had the talk with the wife that we're taking an Indecent Proposal if someone offers. I don't even care how handsome the guy is, if he wants to spend a million bucks for one night with me, she darn well better take the money!

... I saw the movie, and I'm think'n that it'd be highly problematic in the long run.

 

[Moral Orel]

... I saw the movie, and I'm think'n that it'd be highly problematic in the long run.

Are you sure you read my comments about the Indecent Proposal closely enough?

 

[quatona]

See entry 3b:

Definition of JOB

Job

noun (2)
\ˈjōb

\
Definition of Job (Entry 4 of 4)

1 : the hero of the book of Job who endures afflictions with fortitude and faith

2 : a narrative and poetic book of canonical Jewish and Christian Scripture — see Bible Table

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are you sure you read my comments about the Indecent Proposal closely enough?

...either way!

 

[Moral Orel]

...either way!

I guarantee I won't fall in love with Robert Redford, and my wife knows she has nothing to worry about.

Incidentally, I was telling her that joke after I wrote it. The whole time she's scowling at me because she thinks I'm making light of pimping her out. When I got to the end with the "me" it got an eye roll. I thought it was worth at least a chuckle.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I guarantee I won't fall in love with Robert Redford, and my wife knows she has nothing to worry about.

Incidentally, I was telling her that joke after I wrote it. The whole time she's scowling at me because she thinks I'm making light of pimping her out. When I got to the end with the "me" it got an eye roll. I thought it was worth at least a chuckle.

Yeah, I suppose you deserve some brownie points for that one!

 

[FredVB]

All are fallen, and all people, every one of us, have done wrong things, some very wrong. We should be forgiving, God is forgiving, but redeems those who are responsive to change.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

All are fallen, and all people, every one of us, have done wrong things, some very wrong. We should be forgiving, God is forgiving, but redeems those who are responsive to change.

...that's a good point, but does this also mean we should always retain positions of authority and/or influence if and when we're "called out" for failing to live up to the codes of virtue and morality that are inherent to our respective professions?