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Which one?

sleepingdog

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known as a sect of Judaism [Pharisee] of the Way..

The Jews?

Please understand this,

In "The Pharisees_The Sociological Background of Their Faith," Rabbi Louis Finkelstein describes these self-styled "Jews" and their origins:

"Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes in name the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered. When the Jew studies the Talmud, he is actually repeating the arguments used in the Palestinian academies."

Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, page 474,"The Jewish religion, as it is today, traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. The Talmud is the largest and most important single member of their literature; the study which is essential for a real understanding of Pharisaism.


The modern followers of Judaism are Pharisees,that is from the Jews(Read text)

Why do Christians find this so hard to believe?
 
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riverrat

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vedida wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat
sleepingdog wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat
sleepingdog : The literal would be the present nation of Israel.
Sorry, I did not realize my answer would upset you so and i have no clue as to what you are referring to!
And I thought he was fussing at my post. Maybe at both of us?

Sleepingdog must be kin to my wife. She asks me a simple question. I give her a simple answer and then i catch hades because I unknowingly give her the answer she is not looking for. lol
 
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riverrat

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sleepingdog wrote:

Riverrat,

If literal Israel is in the ''state'' of Israel then we can just as easily say Arabs are literal Israel because they live in the ''state'' of Israel.

How can you make a connection that the ''state'' of Israel is related to the people of the Bible?(Israel)

I am still lost! The good ole USA is made up of many nationalities but it is still referred to as the USA. Israel is also made up of different nationalities but is still referred to as Israel. What is the difference?
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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What does the flesh have to do with being saved?

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If the flesh profits nothing, then why are people trying to separate other people by category according to the flesh.:doh:

If you are not born again of the Holy Spirit you shall in no way enter into the Kingdom of God. Flesh makes no difference.
 
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sleepingdog

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sleepingdog wrote:



I am still lost! The good ole USA is made up of many nationalities but it is still referred to as the USA. Israel is also made up of different nationalities but is still referred to as Israel. What is the difference?

The USA is made up of many peoples,of different nationalities.
The ''State'' of Israel is made up of Arabs,and I think they do have their odd European and African as well so how can it be a literal Israel?

You stated this:The literal would be the present nation of Israel.

Who is the present Israel?
 
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Fireinfolding

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Paul was a Pharisee

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
 
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sleepingdog

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sleepingdog wrote:



I guess you want to go around in circles.

The present Israel is the present nation of Israel.

Yes,but that is made up of Arabs as well as probably various other ethnic groups,so how can that be literal Israel?
Do you say that everyone who lives in the ''state'' of Israel are Jews?
You do know that the ''state'' of Israel is only alive because of the USA?
 
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sleepingdog

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Paul was a Pharisee

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul was of one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel,Benjamin.

Romans 11:1:I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Acts 26:7:Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Paul was not an Edomite.See who he was accused by? (read above)
 
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Fireinfolding

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Paul was of one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel,Benjamin.

Romans 11:1:I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Acts 26:7:Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

Paul was not an Edomite.See who he was accused by? (read above)

Not sure what you are saying
 
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Fireinfolding

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Edomites were not of the Twelve Tribes of Israel,so if Paul was a Pharisee who was an Edomite he could not have been of one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel,remember Jacob was chosen not Esau.

So a hypocrite must only be from Edom? Is that what your saying?

Because they travled sea and land to make proselytes

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Were they only seeking Edomites going land and sea? Or just making more hypocrites?
 
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sleepingdog

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So a hypocrite must only be from Edom? Is that what your saying?

Because they travled sea and land to make proselytes

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Were they only seeking Edomites going land and sea? Or just making more hypocrites?

Read all of Matthew 23.

John 8:33:They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Israel had been in bondage, They were related to Abraham through Esau.

John 8:37:I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 8:39:They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

I have this info on the Edomites...

The nation of Judah, comprising the Israelite tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, were conquered and deported to Babylon 600 years before Christ. After a 70-year captivity, about 50,000 of them returned to rebuild Jerusalem.
Ezra and Nehemiah both had a difficult time keeping them from intermarrying with the heathen who had settled in Palestine during their absence. They often had to institute reforms to cleanse the people and even the priests form these unlawful marriage relationships. (See Ezra 2:62; 9:1,2; Nehemiah 7:64; 12:23-30.)
About a century and a half later, when Alexander the Great Conquered the known world and set up his Greek empire, the Greek language began to become the dominant language of the would. It was not long before the Hebrew term Yehudah ("Judahite") was replaced by the Greek term Ioudaioi ("Judeans"). This is why the New Testament (written in Greek) speaks of Judeans instead of Judahites. However, both terms have roughly the same meaning.
Between the time of Nehemiah and the birth of Christ, the problem of intermarriage increased. The climax of the problem came about a century and a half before the birth of Christ, when the Judean, John Hyrcanus, conquered the heathen cities in Palestine and forced the Canaanites to become Judeans ("Jews"). Josephus, the Judean historian, writing in about 95 A.D., wrote of this:
Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea (Greek form of Edom), and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would be circumcised, and make use of the laws of the Judeans; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and the rest of the Judean ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Judeans (Antiq., Bk. 13, ch9, par. 1).
A footnote in Josephus quotes Ammonius, an ancient grammarian, who says further:
The Judeans are such by nature, and form the beginning, whist the Idumeans were not Judeans from the beginning, but Phoenicians and Syrians; but being afterward subdued by the Judeans and compelled to be circumcised, and to unite into one nation, and be subject to the same laws, they were called Judeans.
This same footnote also quotes Dio, the ancient historian:
That country is also called Judea, and the people Judeans; and this name is given also to as many as embrace their religion, though of other nations.
Josephus continues his history of how the Judahites incorporated the Edomites and Canaanites with a history of the son of Hyrcanus, named Aristobulus:
He was called a lover of the Grecians; and had conferred many benefits on his own country, and made war against Iturea, and added a great part of it to Judea, and compelled its inhabitants, if they would continue in that country, to be circumcised, and to live according to the Judean laws (Jos., Antiq., Bk 13, ch 11, par. 3).
Now at this time the Judeans wee in possession of the following cities that had belonged to the Syrians, and Idumeans, and Phoenicians: (Here he List 23 non-Israelite cities); which last (city) they utterly destroyed, because its inhabitants would not bear to change their religious rites for those peculiar to the Judeans. The Judeans also possessed others of the principle cities of Syria, which had been destroyed (Jos., Antiq., Bk. 13, ch. 15, par. 4).
This all took place at least a century before Christ. It is obvious, then that by the time Christ was born a great host of the people living in Judea were Canaanites and Edomites by race, although they were Judeans by religion and by citizenship. Even the ruling dynasty of the Herods were Edomites. Josephus speaks of "Herod, who was no more than a private man, and an Idumean, i.e., a half-Judean" (Antiq., Bk. 14, ch 15, par. 2). A footnote here says: Accordingly, Josephus always esteems him an Idumean, though he says his father Antipater was of the same people with the Judeans, and a Judean by birth, as indeed all such proselytes of justice as the Idumeans, were in time esteemed the very same people with the Judeans.
The Jewish Encyclopedia,1925 edition, vol. 5, p. 41, says:"Edom is in Modern Jewery."
The Esau-Edomite nation ("Idumea") ceased to exist as a separate nation at this point in history. And yet the Bible is clear that Edom would be the enemy of Israel in the latter days. How could these prophecies be fulfilled, if there are no Edomites left in the world? There is only one nation in the world that can prove ancestral ties with Edom, and the Jews themselves claim that dubious distinction.
The Jews have thus adopted the materialistic and anti-Christ attitude that characterized the father of the Edomites, Esau. As judgment for their sins, including that of the crucifixion of Christ, God cast them out of Palestine in 70 A.D., whereupon they fled to North Africa and Spain.
We find what happened to them in the American People's Encyclopedia for 1954, p 15-492, under "The Jews."
Following their dispersal many spread across North Africa to Spain and during this movement converted many of the Berber tribes to Judaism. This had little effect on Physical type, since most of the Berbers were likewise of Mediterranean race. That portion which moved into Spain and later northward Achieved considerable wealth and prestige and became known as Sephardim Jews.
There are two main racial branches of modern Jewry:
the Sephardic Jews of Western Europe and the Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe. Thus far we have dealt only with the Sephardic Jews, and in conclusion we may say that according to historians the Sephardic branch of modern Jewry is a mixture of Judean blood with that of Edom, Syria, Canaan, Phoenicia, and North Africa.
 
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riverrat

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sleepingdog wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat
sleepingdog wrote:



I guess you want to go around in circles.

The present Israel is the present nation of Israel.
Yes,but that is made up of Arabs as well as probably various other ethnic groups,so how can that be literal Israel?

So you tell me the difference between present Israel and literal Israel.

Do you say that everyone who lives in the ''state'' of Israel are Jews?

No

You do know that the ''state'' of Israel is only alive because of the USA?

If so, what is your point?
 
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sleepingdog

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sleepingdog wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat
sleepingdog wrote:



I guess you want to go around in circles.

The present Israel is the present nation of Israel.
So you tell me the difference between present Israel and literal Israel.



No



If so, what is your point?

I'm a bit confused,how can there be a ''nation'' of Israel if there are not people to populate that place?

My point about the USA is that if the the USA stops it's support of that ''state'' it will cease to be a ''state'' and what would you have as literal Israel?
What was literal Israel before the 1940's?
 
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Fireinfolding

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Ive been around awile, the same things come through here every few months or so... I forget the last one riverat might recall, I believe his name is Christian1488, he was big time on genealogies, you can do a search on him and pull up his posts, are you two pretty much one in your genealogie stuff?
 
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