Which Old Testament laws to be observed?

[Duvduv]

People have claimed that Christianity only requires observance of moral laws of the Old Testament, but ritual and civil laws are not relevant. But how can a person observe the Ten Commandments without the laws related to their performance and violation in civil law? For example, what penalties according to Hebrew law apply for murder and under which circumstance? What about theft and idolatry? The old testament specifies some laws, and Jewish law has others. So it's impossible to say that one accepts the moral law of the Ten Commandments or other moral laws without associated civil laws. Why should all ritual laws be abandoned when many don't depend on the sacrificial system for their observance? For example, taking the four species during the festival of Sukkoth, or refraining from leavened bread during Passover. These apply regardless of the sacrificial system.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Many of the ordinances found in the OT/OC Law can be kept today, however they have little to do with your salvation. However such rituals are often of great spiritual value to those that observe them.

Today as then it's not a good idea to plow with an ox and a wild donkey yoked together. Limiting the feed of a work animal as well.

 

[Lukaris]

The moral laws of the OT are those that apply to Jew & Gentile ( St. Paul explains in Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3). Most of these are probably within the 10 commandments ( Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5, Deuteronomy 6, specifically Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:11-21). Extended moral laws are found in Leviticus 18, Leviticus 19, Leviticus 20 etc.).

While these laws remain in the New Testament take strong note that the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5, Matthew 6, Matthew 7 etc.) has made it clear that humans are to be merciful to each other & it is God who will do the judging of life & death, see also Luke 6). I know our human history & just daily living clouds our mutual understanding of this, to say the least.

As far as living within various secular societies, St. Paul explains in Romans 13, also compare Romans 13:8-10 to Matthew 19:16-19). This approach is pure & undefiled but living it out is not easy; the Lord sums this up in John 16:33).

The Old Testament has areas where we see the law of God for all people also. One can read the book of Ecclesiastes for ex. Ecclesiastes 1 etc.). Psalms 15, Psalms 104, Ezekiel 18, esp. Ezekiel 18:4-9, Isaiah 58, Genesis 9 etc.).

One of the few surviving, intact writings of the ancient church sums up much of what I am trying to explain in my limited way. It is a short manual ( about 12 printed pp.). I think it is important because it is prior to the church mingling with any particular nation or empire etc.). Parts have become moot ( not wrong in any way)because of history etc. It is called the Didache:

Didache

One more note despite all of the tragedy of our human history, important summaries of basic faith for the individual have emerged from our history. Chiefly the Apostles & Nicene creeds:

The Apostles' Creed | EWTN

The Nicene Creed - Personal and Devotional Prayers - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[Clare73]

People have claimed that Christianity only requires observance of moral laws of the Old Testament, but ritual and civil laws are not relevant. But how can a person observe the Ten Commandments without the laws related to their performance and violation in civil law? For example, what penalties according to Hebrew law apply for murder and under which circumstance? What about theft and idolatry? The old testament specifies some laws, and Jewish law has others. So it's impossible to say that one accepts the moral law of the Ten Commandments or other moral laws without associated civil laws. Why should all ritual laws be abandoned when many don't depend on the sacrificial system for their observance? For example, taking the four species during the festival of Sukkoth, or refraining from leavened bread during Passover. These apply regardless of the sacrificial system.

It isn't just the sacrificial system that no longer applies.
All the religious laws of the OT do not apply.
The Ten Commandments (Decalgue) apply, but are fulfilled, accomplished (Romans 13:8-10) in obeying Jesus' two NT commands
(Matthew 22:37-41), which actually expand the scope of the Decalogue (to love my neighbor), as well as raise its standard (as myself).

Obeying Jesus' two new commandments covers all law the Chrisitian is to observe in the NT because it fulfills/accomplishes the Decalogue (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:41).

 

[Soyeong]

People have claimed that Christianity only requires observance of moral laws of the Old Testament, but ritual and civil laws are not relevant. But how can a person observe the Ten Commandments without the laws related to their performance and violation in civil law? For example, what penalties according to Hebrew law apply for murder and under which circumstance? What about theft and idolatry? The old testament specifies some laws, and Jewish law has others. So it's impossible to say that one accepts the moral law of the Ten Commandments or other moral laws without associated civil laws. Why should all ritual laws be abandoned when many don't depend on the sacrificial system for their observance? For example, taking the four species during the festival of Sukkoth, or refraining from leavened bread during Passover. These apply regardless of the sacrificial system.

To suggest that some of the 600+ laws in the OT are moral while others are not is to suggest that it can be moral to disobey God when it comes to the laws that are not moral laws, however, I do not see any reason to think that it can ever be moral to disobey God and I do not see any standard by which we can use to determine which of those laws are not moral laws. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

The view of which of the 600+ laws fits into which of the subcategories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law varies widely depending on whom I ask, such as with some people considering just the Ten Commandments to be God's moral laws, while others consider the greatest two commandments to also be moral laws, or include other laws against such as against rape and kidnapping, so in order for someone to speak about those subcategories in way that derives their view from the Bible rather than inserts their view into the Bible, they would need to show where the Bible specifies which of those categories each of God's 600+ laws belong to, however, the Bible doesn't not even refer to any of those subcategories. If I wanted, I could categorize God's 600+ laws based on which parts of the body are most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being considered to be a hand law, however, if I were to create my own doctrine out of my subcategories without establishing that any of the authors of the Bible categorized those laws in the same manner, such as by deciding that the laws I personally consider to be hand laws are no longer valid, then I would quickly run into the same sort of error as those who are deciding that the laws that they personally consider to be ceremonial and civil laws are no longer valid. If a law is no longer valid, then it is no longer profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, or for instruction in righteousness, contrary to 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

 

[Soyeong]

Many of the ordinances found in the OT/OC Law can be kept today, however they have little to do with your salvation. Such rituals are often of great spiritual value to those that observe them.

Today as then it's not a good idea to plow with an ox and a wild donkey yoked together. Limiting the feed of a work animal as well.

Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to God's law through faith has everything to do with the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to God's law through faith has everything to do with the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law.

Sin to the Christian today is more about not doing good than doing evil.

 

[Clare73]

To suggest that some of the 600+ laws in the OT are moral while others are not is to suggest that it can be moral to disobey God when it comes to the laws that are not moral laws, however, I do not see any reason to think that it can ever be moral to disobey God and I do not see any standard by which we can use to determine which of those laws are not moral laws. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.
The view of which of the 600+ laws fits into which of the subcategories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law varies widely depending on whom I ask, such as with some people considering just the Ten Commandments to be God's moral laws, while others consider the greatest two commandments to also be moral laws, or include other laws against such as against rape and kidnapping, so in order for someone to speak about those subcategories in way that derives their view from the Bible rather than inserts their view into the Bible, they would need to show where the Bible specifies which of those categories each of God's 600+ laws belong to, however, the Bible doesn't not even refer to any of those subcategories. If I wanted, I could categorize God's 600+ laws based on which parts of the body are most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being considered to be a hand law, however, if I were to create my own doctrine out of my subcategories without establishing that any of the authors of the Bible categorized those laws in the same manner, such as by deciding that the laws I personally consider to be hand laws are no longer valid, then I would quickly run into the same sort of error as those who are deciding that the laws that they personally consider to be ceremonial and civil laws are no longer valid. If a law is no longer valid, then it is no longer profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, or for instruction in righteousness, contrary to 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Praise God!. . .Jesus has made all of that irrelevant in his two NT commands (Matthew 22:37-41), which accomplish the
Decalogue (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:41) while at the same time managing to expand their scope and raise their standard.
Obeying Jesus' two commands is to obey the Decalogue, and more.

 

[Greengardener]

Good thoughts on the thread. Here are my humble thoughts. It seems we all want a kind of check-list so we can know that we at least hit the minimums. I used to study with people who had the test figured out as to how many questions they could miss and still pass. Somehow that seems to miss the point. If He loves us so much, and if He wants His laws to be written on our hearts, and if loving Him is believing and obeying Him, where is the issue with aiming for excellence in this? Isn't that what we are called to do, to run patiently this race, add to our faith diligence, having done all to stand? Deuteronomy starting about chapter 4 gets really interesting when you look at all that God told us for our good, so we could dwell in the land and prosper, so we could leave peacefully under a minimum of government. It nicely frames out what will make life work, what righteousness looks like. It definitely can light our path. May He create in us a clean heart and a renewed mind to get a better grasp on His loving-kindness, mercy, and justice.

 

[Duvduv]

It isn't just the sacrificial system that no longer applies.
All the religious laws of the OT do not apply.
The Ten Commandments (Decalgue) apply, but are fulfilled, accomplished (Romans 13:8-10) in obeying Jesus' two NT commands
(Matthew 22:37-41), which actually expand the scope of the Decalogue (to love my neighbor), as well as raise its standard (as myself).

Obeying Jesus' two new commandments covers all law the Chrisitian is to observe in the NT because it fulfills/accomplishes the Decalogue (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:41).

Unfortunately you weren't following me. I brought the example of murder. There are different degrees of murder in law, intentional, unintentional, with witnesses, without witnesses, manslaughter, etc. But this cannot be adjudicated for punishment without civil laws, so if the ones in Biblical law don't apply, what good is it to talk about the Ten Commandments altogether? Can you address this more specifically?

 

[Duvduv]

The moral laws of the OT are those that apply to Jew & Gentile ( St. Paul explains in Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3). Most of these are probably within the 10 commandments ( Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5, Deuteronomy 6, specifically Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:11-21). Extended moral laws are found in Leviticus 18, Leviticus 19, Leviticus 20 etc.).

While these laws remain in the New Testament take strong note that the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5, Matthew 6, Matthew 7 etc.) has made it clear that humans are to be merciful to each other & it is God who will do the judging of life & death, see also Luke 6). I know our human history & just daily living clouds our mutual understanding of this, to say the least.

As far as living within various secular societies, St. Paul explains in Romans 13, also compare Romans 13:8-10 to Matthew 19:16-19). This approach is pure & undefiled but living it out is not easy; the Lord sums this up in John 16:33).

The Old Testament has areas where we see the law of God for all people also. One can read the book of Ecclesiastes for ex. Ecclesiastes 1 etc.). Psalms 15, Psalms 104, Ezekiel 18, esp. Ezekiel 18:4-9, Isaiah 58, Genesis 9 etc.).

One of the few surviving, intact writings of the ancient church sums up much of what I am trying to explain in my limited way. It is a short manual ( about 12 printed pp.). I think it is important because it is prior to the church mingling with any particular nation or empire etc.). Parts have become moot ( not wrong in any way)because of history etc. It is called the Didache:

Didache

One more note despite all of the tragedy of our human history, important summaries of basic faith for the individual have emerged from our history. Chiefly the Apostles & Nicene creeds:

The Apostles' Creed | EWTN

The Nicene Creed - Personal and Devotional Prayers - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

PLEASE read my most recent reply. Thank you.

 

[Clare73]

Unfortunately you weren't following me. I brought the example of murder. There are different degrees of murder in law, intentional, unintentional, with witnesses, without witnesses, manslaughter, etc. But this cannot be adjudicated for punishment without civil laws, so if the ones in Biblical law don't apply, what good is it to talk about the Ten Commandments altogether? Can you address this more specifically?

I think you're right. . .I'm not following you. . .some things aren't clear to me:

Are you referring to adjudication of human law or divine law?
Are your referring to adjudication in a human court or the divine court?

In human courts, the laws are adjudicated according to existing civil law.
Punishment for breaking the law is meted out according to the existing law by the Judge of the Court.

In divine court, the laws are adjudicated according to divine law.
Punishment for breaking the law is meted out according to the Lawgiver and Judge of the Court.

The two courts and laws are not related.
The Ten Commandments have no authority over the civil law of our land.

Based on the nature of my questions, could you clarify for me what you want addressed?

 

[PloverWing]

The early church at the Jerusalem Council decided that non-Jews did not have to convert to Judaism in order to be Christians. Thus, non-Jewish Christians are not bound by the Mosaic law. The Mosaic laws and the writings of the prophets, of course, do contain some principles that embody important ways to love God and neighbor -- for example, care for the poor, and do not murder -- and these are principles that Christians would also follow as expressions of love for neighbor.

I don't find it useful to divide the law into moral, civil, and ceremonial/ritual components, even though I have heard Christians speak of the Jewish law in that way. Nor do I see justification for singling out the Ten Commandments as applicable in a way that the rest of the Law is not. The guidance of the Jerusalem Council is more relevant.

 

[Duvduv]

I intended to point out that if a Christian follows Old Testament commandments then their implementation has to be, at least theoretically, according to the same religious system, not a secular legal system. Obviously governments don't operate according to biblical laws, but at least in theory the Christian would want to see the laws of the Ten commandments implemented according to religious rules. But they don't. At least Jewish law can be adjudicated according to the Torah and Talmud, and one would expect Christians to want to operate in the same manner. But when Christians discuss the Ten Commandments the sound as if there are no related biblical laws for implementation.

 

[Lukaris]

PLEASE read my most recent reply. Thank you.

In a basic sense our faith commandments help us to be good citizens. Jesus taught us to render unto God what is God’s & render unto Caesar.

 

[Soyeong]

Praise God!. . .Jesus has made all of that irrelevant in his two NT commands (Matthew 22:37-41), which accomplish the
Decalogue (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:41) while at the same time managing to expand their scope and raise their standard.
Obeying Jesus' two commands is to obey the Decalogue, and more.

The greatest two commandments have always been the greatest two, so Jesus was stating what has always been the case, not making any changes. If the greatest two commandments make the other commandments irrelevant, then God could have simply given just those two commandments, but those two commandment are a lot easier said than done, so instead we should praise God for giving all of the other commandments in order to paint us a picture of what it means to correctly obey the greatest two. The Psalms contain extremely high praise for the Mosaic Law, so if you agree that the Psalms are Scripture and therefore express a correct view of the law, then you should disregard your position.

In Matthew 22:36-41, Jesus was not asked about which of the commandments are still relevant, but about what the greatest commandment was, and there is nothing about commandments not being the greatest that implies that they are not relevant. Rather, Jesus saying that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two is saying that they are all relevant. If someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not include obedience to the other commandments, then they have an incorrect understanding of what it means to obey them.

 

[Soyeong]

Sin to the Christian today is more about not doing good than doing evil.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is what is in against or in accordance with God's eternal nature, so that has not changed for Christians today.

 

[klutedavid]

The early church at the Jerusalem Council decided that non-Jews did not have to convert to Judaism in order to be Christians. Thus, non-Jewish Christians are not bound by the Mosaic law. The Mosaic laws and the writings of the prophets, of course, do contain some principles that embody important ways to love God and neighbor -- for example, care for the poor, and do not murder -- and these are principles that Christians would also follow as expressions of love for neighbor.

I don't find it useful to divide the law into moral, civil, and ceremonial/ritual components, even though I have heard Christians speak of the Jewish law in that way. Nor do I see justification for singling out the Ten Commandments as applicable in a way that the rest of the Law is not. The guidance of the Jerusalem Council is more relevant.

Correct.

Not under the law means what it says and that is throughout the New Testament.

We are under the law of Christ now.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[Soyeong]

The early church at the Jerusalem Council decided that non-Jews did not have to convert to Judaism in order to be Christians. Thus, non-Jewish Christians are not bound by the Mosaic law. The Mosaic laws and the writings of the prophets, of course, do contain some principles that embody important ways to love God and neighbor -- for example, care for the poor, and do not murder -- and these are principles that Christians would also follow as expressions of love for neighbor.

I don't find it useful to divide the law into moral, civil, and ceremonial/ritual components, even though I have heard Christians speak of the Jewish law in that way. Nor do I see justification for singling out the Ten Commandments as applicable in a way that the rest of the Law is not. The guidance of the Jerusalem Council is more relevant.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which was the light to Gentiles (Matthew 4:15-23), and which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey both by word and by example, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and are not given any room to disregard anything he taught during his ministry (John 12:46-50). So the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as speaking against Gentiles following Christ, especially because they were not enemies of God and didn't have the authority to countermand Him. However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so even if they had been speaking against Gentiles following Christ, then we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded. All of the laws that God has commanded are examples of what it means to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other laws hang on them.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is what is in against or in accordance with God's eternal nature, so that has not changed for Christians today.

Of course, but our focus is not on abstaining from evil (keeping the Law), but upon doing good, as we through the indwelling Holy Spirit take on more of God's nature. When I was a young man I sinned all the time and did it without conscience. As an older Christian I don't even think about doing those things. As Paul said, "God forbid", meaning that such is now unthinkable. Those sins are now as far from my thinking "as east is from west".

We are to "fulfill" the final intent of the Law, which is actually antithetical to the written Law.