yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
THat is what you say, and have said,
but that is not at all what he said anywhere so far known.
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THat is what you say, and have said,His quotes were an interpretation of those scriptures that to be saved you have to do works.
The guy identifies as a conditional salvationist, that is, you can lose your salvation by sinning or not doing works. So to him, to be saved, you need works, and a sinless life.THat is what you say, and have said,
but that is not at all what he said anywhere so far known.
I believe many in the church today settle for a greasy form of grace that makes for an allowance for them to be secure in their grievous sin on some level. But God's plan of salvation does not work like that. It should be no surprise really. It is there in black and white on almost every page of the New Testament. Take Matthew 7:23. Those believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name were told to depart from Jesus because they worked iniquity or lawlessness. Jesus did not know them because they justified sin (See also 1 John 2:3-4, and 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. To hit a person over the head some more (if that is not enough), Jesus said if anyone does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). Still not enough? Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that everyone who does not hear (obeys) that prophet (JESUS), they will be destroyed. Over, and over, and over again. The Bible is warning men of God to live holy.
As much as I am strongly against OSAS and it’s related beliefs with a white hot passion, I have seen some Conditional Salvationists hate “Eternal Security” or a “Sin and Still Be Saved Doctrine” so much that they forget how to speak in love to others. I believe we should hate the belief, and the sin and we should love the soul of the one whom we disagree with.
We all believe in God’s grace. The difference between the Conditional Salvationist (who believes grievous sin can separate a believer from God) and the Belief Alone Salvationist is a matter of the kind fruit (or work) one is saved in.
For we are all going to do works.
Either one’s works are going to be good or evil. So...
In possessing God’s saving grace, is one saved with the kind of works that reflect obedience, holy living, and in having good works?
Or...
In possessing God’s saving grace, is one saved by the kind of works that reflect sin disobedience, not living holy, and in being fruitless and or being an reprobate unto every good work?
Which one do you think God would prefer seeing He is holy?
It is a free pass to sin. For do you believe you lose salvation when you sin? Do you believe the prodigal son was saved while he was spending his inheritance on prostitutes? Do you believe king David was saved during the moment in time when he committed adultery and murder?
Again, not accurately shown from his posts.The guy identifies as a conditional salvationist, that is, you can lose your salvation by sinning or not doing works. So to him, to be saved, you need works, and a sinless life.
No, not at all. You're looking at it as a binary thing of heaven or hell are the only consequences of sin, the only reward for works, the only outcome of salvation.Again, not accurately shown from his posts.
Do you think the warnings from the Creator, Yahweh, in His Word, are for no purpose then ? That you can just be (deleted/censored) and still be saved... (without being forgiven!? )
So you're willing to directly dispute Jesus words ?
I think that we're done here ...
Yes, the president is offering a free unconditional undeserved pardon, but the criminal has to humbly accept the free unconditional undeserved pardon as it was given as pure charity. Humans will do almost anything to avoid “accepting” pure charity to the point the person will say: “I did not accept it but it was thrust upon me, God for some reason wanted me, so no acceptance on my part needed.” We could look at Matt. 18 to understand how forgiveness works.
Okay if he says it's the holy spirit that saves you but you only have the holy spirit if you're not sinning and doing works, then what's he saying is saving you?
In other words, if you say it's grace that saves you but you have to earn that grace through leading a sinless life and doing works, that's no longer grace.
and Romans 4:5 is also scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 are also scripture.
You said:Jesus, who said in John 6:28-29 that the "work" of God was to believe on Him who He hath sent. That was IT, that was the only works that Jesus said.
You said:James can't contradict Paul. James also can't contradict. How do we reconcile this?
Obviously it will have to depend on interpretations because on the surface they appear to be saying contradicting things.
But they aren't contradicting, because the book of James is addressed to the saved, he refers to them over and over as "Bretheren". That is, bretheren in Christ, Christians, people who are already saved from condemnation in hell.
You said:Again I offer Hebrews 12 and 1 Corinthians 5, which talk about the flesh being punished for sin but the soul still being with God.
The guy identifies as a conditional salvationist, that is, you can lose your salvation by sinning or not doing works. So to him, to be saved, you need works, and a sinless life.
I believe all of Jesus’ parables.Wow. You really believe the parable? So okay. Widespread chaos would be the result of the president pardoning criminals and their future crimes. Many (if not most) will continue to do evil and treat the president's pardon as a license to sin. People would look at the president as being immoral if he did that because you would not be able to walk outside in peace like you once did because some crazy guy who raped, and murdered would be able to kill you and get away with it. No standard of morality would be upheld and it's okay he rapes and murders people because the president gave him a pardon. Yeah, if you want to live in a world like that, then by all means.
I believe all of Jesus’ parables.
I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.
This parable is not explained well by many commentaries.
Is accepting forgiveness as pure charity required to complete the transaction?
What part does man play in his salvation?
How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?
Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:
Matt. 18: 21-35
Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).
I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).
This Parable will then come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.
As you asked: “ What keeps people from taking advantage of God and in this case you”?
So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?
I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)
Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.
Here are some questions I have asked in the past:
The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.
The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer, so is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)
The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?
The servant is asking to “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”?
If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?
If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?
Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?
Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?
In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?
Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?
Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.
Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).
I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?
Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:
1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?
2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?
3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?
4. The wicked servant is a sinner?
5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?
6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?
7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?
8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?
If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?
I believe all of Jesus’ parables.
How much "sanctification process" did the thief next to Jesus do at Cavalry? Cause only thing I read was admitting he was a sinner and putting faith in Jesus.Well, I did not say that all sins lead to spiritual death. Not all commands are tied with warnings of hellfire. While a Christian is to seek to obey the Lord Jesus and His followers in all things, we know things like Matthew 5:11-12 are not attached with warnings of hellfire if we fail to not always do such a command. But things like in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8 are the kinds of sins that can lead to spiritual death for the believer if they do not confess and forsake such sins in this life. The whole point of the Sanctification Process is to crucify the affections and lusts, and to walk in newness of life and to be fruitful for our Lord. Belief Alone-ism is simply a license to sin under God's grace. Some may protest otherwise, but when push comes to shove, they preach a double message when it comes to living holy.
You use Galatians 5:4 which is about trying to "earn" grace through obedience to the law... as a defense to how you have to be obedience to the law to "earn" grace.Well, while Christians should seek to be obedient in all things, the part that you say here about how a believer needs to live a sinless life in order to be saved is not exactly true. Not all sin is the same. 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin that does not lead to death. Obviously going over the speed limit by 5mph, or not taking your trash out on time is not the same as murder, adultery, and theft, etc. (For things like: murder, adultery, and theft are clearly described in the Bible as the kinds of sins that will lead to condemnation by God). Granted, we should strive to obey God in even what we believe to be the minor things in this life, but the point here is that we are not condemned for faults of character and or minor transgressions.
As for the rest of what you say:
Well, I am proud of the other things you say of me because that is what the Bible plainly teaches. You have to re-write Scripture in many places in order for a "Grievous sin and saved" type belief to work. The Bible condemns this kind of wrong belief. The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). Those who worked iniquity or sin were told by Jesus to depart from Him (Matthew 7:23). What is the context? Jesus says that anyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says a person can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4). We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.
Matt. 18: 21-35 for the most part in commentaries goes unexplained with the authors only saying what it is not saying and not what all it teaches.You are overcomplicating it. You are interjecting biased opinions of your false view that "Future sin is forgiven for a believer" or "Unconditional Forgiveness" into the "Parable of the Unforgiving Servant" (Matthew 18:21-35) when the parable is not teaching such a thing. The point of the parable here is simple. It is saying the same thing as Matthew 6:15.
"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).
The parable ends with this point.
"Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." (Matthew 18:33-35).
Meaning: If we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven by God the Father. In other words, we will not be saved or have our own sins forgiven if we refuse to forgive others. It is conditional. You have to forgive in order to be forgiven (or to have continued salvation).
Your "parable" is very much like the first part of Christ's parable in Matt. 18. The Master forgave an unbelievable huge debt like the president pardoning an unbelievable huge amount of crime. Both the servant and these criminals do not Love the Master, president and subjects with an unbelievable huge Love. Neither the criminal or servant had Loved, the master, the president and all their subjects, so they did not accept the President's pardon or the Master's forgiveness as pure charity, which means forgiveness of their crimes or debt were not forgiven/ forgiveness did not take place. They were not forgiven is shown in Christ's parable, but not your parable.I was referring to the parable I created (i.e. the President setting free criminals and pardoning them of their future crimes). What is disturbing is that you did not appear to not have a problem with this scenario. Surely you would not like it if you lived in a world where murders, thieves, rapists would roam free to harm you and they would not be punished for such crimes. Ah, but the president pardoned them. Good for him. He will have to give an account to God one day if he did that.
As Jesus taught us, put the will of the Father first which is love all as self. One thief representing traditional adversarial man was selfish and wanted to be saved. The other was selfless as God commands and didn't just admit his guilt but declared Jesus' innocence, saying they deserved to be punished but He not. Just as Jesus taught in His Gospel of the Kingdom. Selfless over self. By living as Jesus commanded he found himself a place in God's Kingdom. The other self serving thief did not.How much "sanctification process" did the thief next to Jesus do at Cavalry? Cause only thing I read was admitting he was a sinner and putting faith in Jesus.
Well yeah, but it sounds like the structure of prayers people say when they first turn to Jesus. Admission of sin and acknowledgement that they deserve death for their sins, belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and asking Jesus to be his savior, even if he didn't quite uses those terms, nor was he aware that Jesus was about to take his sins and die for him. But the heart was there. Acknowledging that Jesus was sinless and dying next to sinners was pretty close to the mark even if he didn't realize this substitution of the blood of the lamb of God as the perfect sin offering for atonement. He put his faith in Jesus and that was enough. Right after he spoke the words Jesus promised him they'd be in paradise together.As Jesus taught us, put the will of the Father first which is love all as self. One thief representing traditional adversarial man was selfish and wanted to be saved. The other was selfless as God commands and didn't just admit his guilt but declared Jesus' innocence, saying they deserved to be punished but He not. Just as Jesus taught in His Gospel of the Kingdom. Selfless over self. By living as Jesus commanded he found himself a place in God's Kingdom. The other self serving thief did not.
Yes because imo, he did what Jesus taught, put others before self. A simple commandment and a simple way of life. Religion blows that all out of proportion.Right after he spoke the words Jesus promised him they'd be in paradise together.
Your "parable" is very much like the first part of Christ's parable in Matt. 18. The Master forgave an unbelievable huge debt like the president pardoning an unbelievable huge amount of crime. Both the servant and these criminals do not Love the Master, president and subjects with an unbelievable huge Love. Neither the criminal or servant had Loved, the master, the president and all their subjects, so they did not accept the President's pardon or the Master's forgiveness as pure charity, which means forgiveness of their crimes or debt were not forgiven/ forgiveness did not take place. They were not forgiven is shown in Christ's parable, but not your parable.
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