Which Law Paul?

[HARK!]

I'm engaging with you, not a video.

If you aren't up to it, just say so.

I'm not talking about the video, which is in the OP. I'm talking about the study that I posted a link to in the OP. I covered each of those verses, in context, in detail, in that study. I also provided links to each segment of that study, and a list of which of Paul's laws can be found in that study, and where to find them within that study.

After you have reviewed the information provided (or at least some of it) in the OP; I would be interested in entertaining something other than an argument from ignorance.

If you aren't up for that; then there is no need to respond.

 

[Clare73]

The Mosaic law given by God, which they couldn't keep according to God's requirements

Says who?

The NT. . . penned by the apostles of Jesus Christ.
Do you know it?

"No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law." (Romans 3:20)

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10)

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps you should review (Burden of Proof).
Where did I make a statement that your statement is not Biblical? Please quote me.

Standard requirement for proving an assertion is incorrect.

Feel free to acknowledge you are not up to this kind of accountability for your assertions.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not talking about the video, which is in the OP. I'm talking about the study that I posted a link to in the OP. I covered each of those verses, in context, in detail, in that study. I also provided links to each segment of that study, and a list of which of Paul's laws can be found in that study, and where to find them within that study.

After you have reviewed the information provided (or at least some of it) in the OP; I would be interested in entertaining something other than an argument from ignorance.

If you aren't up for that; then there is no need to respond.

No, I don't plan to read an encyclopedia as your idea of a straight-forward Biblical demonstration,
just as I don't link you to the whole Bible as my demonstration.

That's not acting in good faith.

 

[Clare73]

Nope. The context and subject matter of Galatians 3:10 says nowhere that the "Law is death". Unless you think Paul is contradicting himself when he says "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good and then continues by saying "is that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. - Romans 7:12-13.

The context and subject matter of Galatians 3:10 says nowhere that "the law is death". Paul agreeing with what Paul says in Romans 7:12-13 says "the wages of sin is death" in Romans 6:23. As posted earlier all the law does is give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break Gods' law *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and 1 John 3:4. Lets take a look at the context and subject matter of Galatians 3:10 which says "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Note; nowhere does it say anywhere that "the law is death"! The context and subject matter is to those who are seeking their salvation through the works of the law because all the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God *Romans 3:9-20 and the wages if sin is death *Romans 6:23. Therefore we cannot be made righteous by keeping the law because we have already sinned and broken the law (Romans 3:19). According to the scriptures sin is death not the law (Romans 6:23). The law simply gives us the knowledge of what sin is when the law is broken (Romans 7:7). Paul specifically states that the law is holy, just and good and not death in Romans 7:12-13.

"No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law." (Romans 3:20)

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:20)

They couldn't keep the law according to God's requirements, so it cursed them to eternal death, being unable to give them eternal life, for which it was not given any way.

 

[HARK!]

The NT. . . penned by the apostles of Jesus Christ.
Do you know it?

"No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law." (Romans 3:20)

That's not what Romans 3:20 says.

Let's back up a verse to help to put this more into context.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

This is speaking of YHWH's eternal instructions. What do you suppose the just verdict of YHWH is for those who ignore his instructions (Torah)?

Paul then goes on to talk about works of law.

(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

Is "works of the law" the same as YHWH's law?

Let's back up just a few more verses, in the same letter

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

 

[HARK!]

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:20)

Mmmm....That's an interesting translation.

(CLV) Ga 3:20
Now there is not Mediator of one. Yet God is One.

 

[Soyeong]

Nope. . .boot-strapping (making the merely associative to be completely equivalent),
common methodology both in Jewish thinking and in dispensationalism.
The "law of God" in Romans 7:4 is the written code, and
"the law of my mind" in Romans 7:21-25 is an inner force/desire within Paul.

In Paul's usage in Romans 7:21-25, the "law of sin" and "the law of my mind" are forces operating within him toward either sin or the law of God.
The "law of his mind" is a force drawing him to the law of God, it is not the law of God,

"The law of my mind" is the Law of God that Paul wanted to obey with his mind, though if you want to say that the law of sin leading to sin is the opposite of the law of my mind leading to obedience to the Law of God, then I don't see a good reason to quibble over that.

but in Romans 7:4 it is the law of God; i.e., the written code..

I gave reasons for why Romans 7:4 should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God and why it should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, so please interact with that.

False hermeneutic. . .it's no about "matching" (associative equivalency; i.e., boot-strapping),
it's about context.

The context shows that Paul was describing the law of sin. Going by your definition of the law of sin being a desire operating with in towards sin is that that essentially the same what Romans 7:5 is speaking about as a desire that is stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death.

"All those who rely on observing the law are under a curse

(death)." (Galatians 3:10)
The law of God is death because we cannot observe it according to God's requirements.
And because it is death does not mean it is not good.
Justice can be death, but justice is still good.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was contrasting works of the law with the Book of the Law and the reason why they were under the curse for not following the Book of the Law because instead of relying it, they were relying on works of the law. Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Book of the Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike to Book of the Law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely on God's law is to rely on God.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So observe the Law of God according to His requirements was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that can't do, which only leads to death. In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it is not what was good that brought death to him, yet you are arguing that it is what is good that brought death to him. Furthermore, there is a difference between the law of sin that is a desire that leads to sin that Romans 7:5 is speaking about and the Law of God, which has death as the penalty for refusing to submit to it.

Precisely. . .and the law of Christ is Matthew 22:37-40, which fulfills the whole law "and any other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10), is this law of God in the New Covenant.

So when referring to the "law of God," make clear that you are referring to the New Covenant law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-40) which is the law of God and fulfills all the law of God; i.e., "and any other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10),
and stop confounding the Old Covenant Mosaic law which kills those under it (Galatians 3:10) with the New Covenant law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-40) which gives life and liberty, and is enabled by the Holy Spirit.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, which is the Law of Moses. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it, so all of the Law of Moses was given by God and is thus the Law of God. Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, idolatry, murder, rape, incest, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for all of the other laws of God, so the command to love fulfills the other laws because it is inclusive of them. Someone who followed the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who followed the Law of Moses because both would be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, obedience to God's law brings life, while it only brings death to those who refuse to submit to it. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 32:47, it is our very life. In Psalms 119:45, the Law of Moses is a law of liberty, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Holy Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses.

More confounding and misuse of Christ's NT "law of God" to put us back under the Mosaic OT "law of God," when Christ's NT law of God was given to free us from the Mosaic OT law of God (Galatians 5:1), which cursed us (Galatians 3:10).

Surely this can't be that hard to keep straight.

The sum of everything that Christ taught by word and by example was how to obey the Law of Moses, so the Law of Christ could not be something other than what Christ taught. There are not multiple different Laws of God, so you are making a false dichotomy. Christ said nothing about freeing us from the Law of Moses, but rather he spent his ministry calling for people to return to obedience to it. The reason why God freed the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt was not in order to put them under bondage to the Mosaic Law, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1), and again the Mosaic Law is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45). In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

"No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law." (Romans 3:20) "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:20) They couldn't keep the law according to God's requirements, so it cursed them to eternal death, being unable to give them eternal life, for which it was not given any way.

Where did any one post to you that we are declared righteous through keeping the law and if no one has ever said to you that we are made righteous through keeping the law why are you pretending that they have? Now if we are in agreement that no one is declared righteous through keeping the law then what is your argument? You have none because we are both in agreement. As posted earlier and proven from the scriptures what we are in disagreement about is your claims that the law is death. As shown from the scriptures earlier the law is not death, sin is (Romans 7:12-13; Romans 6:23). All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is when Gods' law is broken *Romans 7:7. According to the scriptures no one is "under the law" unless they stand guilty before God of breaking the law *Romans 3:19. The new covenant promise is God's law written in the heart to love in all those who have been born again into Gods' new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Those who are born again to love according to the scriptures however do not practice known unrepentant sin which is defined in the scriptures as knowingly breaking Gods' law and not believing and following what Gods Word says (see 1 John 3:4-9; Romans 14:23)

Take Care.

 

[Acts29]

That's not what Romans 3:20 says.

Let's back up a verse to help to put this more into context.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

This is speaking of YHWH's eternal instructions. What do you suppose the just verdict of YHWH is for those who ignore his instructions (Torah)?

Paul then goes on to talk about works of law.

(CLV) Ro 3:20
because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

Is "works of the law" the same as YHWH's law?

Let's back up just a few more verses, in the same letter

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Allow me to summarize a bit and see if this agrees with you.
It seems there is great confusion among the church regarding "the Law." I think what Paul was making a distinction the statutes and ordinances versus the law of God, which is essentially to do what is good and right.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Statutes and Ordinances are works of the law that have nothing to do with the heart. For example:
- Resting on the Sabbath, New Moons, etc.
- Procedures for a Leprosy
- Procedures for mildew
- Procedures for Divorce
None of these things are about choosing good vs. evil. They are simply works which both righteous and wicked can do alike. Therefore, no one is justified by doing them. Do any of these things have anything to do with loving God or your neighbor? No.

The Laws of Yehovah never passes away because they are about the heart AND choosing between good and evil. For every "do not" there is a "do." For example:
- Do not covet. Therefore, do be content with what you have.
- Do not lie in wait (murder). Therefore, do value life.
- Do not worship idols. Therefore, do worship the Lord your God.
- Do not bear false witness. Therefore, do love the truth.
- Do not listen to serpents (Eden). Therefore, do believe God and it will be accounted to you as righteousness.
All of these require a choice between good vs. evil. God commands we choose good and reject evil. Our short time on earth is basically a series of tests to see which way we choose. All of these things are directly related to loving God and/or our neighbor.

This isn't a perfect analogy, but ....... What most people refer to as a conscience is really God's law written on their heart. Some refuse and reject their conscience until it becomes seared as with a hot iron. This is how "humans" could throw children alive into a fire during the holocaust, for example. Those who listen to their conscience/God's law and choose to do what is right are the elect of God. Those who do not, are not.

In summary, the eternal law of God involves matters of the heart, choosing good vs. evil. In this, the old and new covenants are one. The works of the law have nothing to do with matters of the heart and therefore are able to pass away. Is this roughly how you see it?

 

[HARK!]

Allow me to summarize a bit and see if this agrees with you.
It seems there is great confusion among the church regarding "the Law." I think what Paul was making a distinction the statutes and ordinances versus the law of God, which is essentially to do what is good and right.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Statutes and Ordinances are works of the law that have nothing to do with the heart. For example:
- Resting on the Sabbath, New Moons, etc.
- Procedures for a Leprosy
- Procedures for mildew
- Procedures for Divorce
None of these things are about choosing good vs. evil. They are simply works which both righteous and wicked can do alike. Therefore, no one is justified by doing them. Do any of these things have anything to do with loving God or your neighbor? No.

The Laws of Yehovah never passes away because they are about the heart AND choosing between good and evil. For every "do not" there is a "do." For example:
- Do not covet. Therefore, do be content with what you have.
- Do not lie in wait (murder). Therefore, do value life.
- Do not worship idols. Therefore, do worship the Lord your God.
- Do not bear false witness. Therefore, do love the truth.
- Do not listen to serpents (Eden). Therefore, do believe God and it will be accounted to you as righteousness.
All of these require a choice between good vs. evil. God commands we choose good and reject evil. Our short time on earth is basically a series of tests to see which way we choose. All of these things are directly related to loving God and/or our neighbor.

This isn't a perfect analogy, but ....... What most people refer to as a conscience is really God's law written on their heart. Some refuse and reject their conscience until it becomes seared as with a hot iron. This is how "humans" could throw children alive into a fire during the holocaust, for example. Those who listen to their conscience/God's law and choose to do what is right are the elect of God. Those who do not, are not.

In summary, the eternal law of God involves matters of the heart, choosing good vs. evil. In this, the old and new covenants are one. The works of the law have nothing to do with matters of the heart and therefore are able to pass away. Is this roughly how you see it?

...Or maybe the answer is much simpler. Maybe we can find the answer in 4Q-MMT, a scroll found at Betharaba, where Yochanan the Immerser lived, where Yahshua began his ministry. It speaks of Halacha, which can be found in the Talmud, man made traditions, which are not YHWH's Torah.

Here is the language found in that document:

מקצת מעשי התורה
Miqtsat Ma῾asei Ha-Torah

This translates to "works of the law."

Now considering that Paul, as a Pharisee, was most likely quite familiar with Halacha; and he's using the exact same language that is used to describe Halacha; and we know from Paul's letter to the Romans that "works of the law" is not the same as "YHWH's law;" might we not infer that Paul was speaking of Halacha?

 

[BobRyan]

And the Spirit does make us righteous.
Now you're getting it.

So why would we be under the Spirit and not the law?

Context matters.

Paul's use of the term "Under the Law" as in Rom 3:19-20 is in the context of "under the condemnation of the Law" and it results in "every mouth closed" and "all the world held accountable" for "all have sinned" as Paul points out in Rom 3.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

That is the moral law of God and it includes things like "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 and also "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 as well as the other TEN Commandments being included in it.

And it is in that SAME LAW that we find "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 (Which is true of the unit of TEN)

So that means the LAW includes "Do not covet" as Paul points out in Rom 3, and that means it would also include commandments not quoted by Paul such as "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

And that is why Rom 3:31 is so "instructive"

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31

How informative that we find that Law "Written on heart and mind" under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Statutes and Ordinances are works of the law that have nothing to do with the heart.

Your claim about "nothing to do with the heart" is in direct contradiction to the words of Christ that you quote in Matt 22 where "The heart" issue is the foundation of all of it. All of scripture depends on those two commandments Christ quoted from the Law of Moses - according to Him in Matt 22.

 

[Clare73]

That's not what Romans 3:20 says.

That is precisely what it plainly and clearly states, it being foolishness to try to unseat it.

Let's back up a verse to help to put this more into context.
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,
This is speaking of YHWH's eternal instructions. What do you suppose the just verdict of YHWH is for those who ignore his instructions (Torah)?
Paul then goes on to talk about works of law.

(CLV) Ro 3:20because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin.

Is "works of the law" the same as YHWH's law?

Let's back up just a few more verses, in the same letter
(CLV) Ro 2:13 - For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Yes, works of the law are works of God's Mosaic law. . .secular law is not intended here.

Back to Romans 2:13, which itself is not the context of Romans 3:20 as you assert. . .for that context begins in Romans 1:18.

Rather, Romans 3:20 is the end of a summation of Romans 1:18-3:8--which passage is two major demonstrations proving that summation of Romans 3:10-20:
1) the unrighteousness of the Gentiles (Romans 1:18-32),
2) the unrighteousness of the Jews (Romans 2:1-3:8),
summation: the unrighteousness of all mankind (Romans 3:9-20).

Note that Romans 2:13 is part of the demonstration of the unrighteousness of the Jews, where the basis for Jewish righteousness is presented: it is not those who (just) listen to the law that are righteous (just), it is those who do the law that are righteous (justified).
From which basis the apostle then goes on to demonstrate how the (self-)righteous Jews were really unrighteous in spite of their advantages which they considered to be absolutely qualifying assets (Romans 2:17-3:8).

So Romans 2:13 is not testifying to the righteousness of the Jews, it is testifying to the unrighteousness of the Jews because of their failure to be "doers of the law."

And the Gentiles are likewise unrighteous for not obeying the law of their conscience,
thereby making all mankind unrighteous and bound over to disobedience (Romans 11:32)
by either the law of their conscience or the Mosaic law of God.

 

[Clare73]

"The law of my mind" is the Law of God that Paul wanted to obey with his mind, though if you want to say that the law of sin leading to sin is the opposite of the law of my mind leading to obedience to the Law of God, then I don't see a good reason to quibble over that.

First of all, you've presented a lot here, so you have a lot here in response to which to give consideration.

The "law of sin" was a power or force operating within him just as the "law of my mind" was a power or force operating within him, the two powers or forces being in conflict.
Neither of these "laws" refers to the written code of God's Mosaic law.

I gave reasons for why Romans 7:4 should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God and why it should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, so please interact with that.

Did you not consider my response there? That was thoroughly done in my first response of post #46.

The context shows that Paul was describing the law of sin. Going by your definition of the law of sin being a desire operating with in towards sin is that that essentially the same what Romans 7:5 is speaking about as a desire that is stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death.

No, Romans 7:5 refers to the written code (God's Mosaic law) to which we have died through Christ (Romans 7:4) and from which law/written code we are set free (Galatians 5:13, Galatians 5:1, Galatians 2:4).
The written code of Romans 7:5 stirs up the "passions"/powers (Romans 7:18-19) which
operate by the law of sin of Romans 7:23.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was contrasting works of the law with the Book of the Law and the reason why they were under the curse for not following the Book of the Law because instead of relying it, they were relying on works of the law.

That makes no sense. . .how do you rely on a book. . .particularly in terms of righteousness?

The "works of the law" are the works required by the "Book of the Law," the written code.

Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5,

Wouldn't it be helpful to give the location to what you are referring, because it is not in Romans, which is what we are discussing?

Paul opposes the law of Leviticus 18:5 to the faith of Habakkuk 2:4, his argument being that
the law (Leviticus) was not given to justify us, as is plain from Abraham (Habakuk), but was given as a guardian (Galatians 3:24) to lead us to Christ. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25).
From the beginning (Abraham), justification has always been by faith , it has never been by law-keeping (see the "hall of faith "in Hebrews 11).
The Jewish teachers got it wrong (Romans 10:3). It was faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5, 3:15), and in the tabernacle (Exodus 25:9, "God with us") and sacrifices (atonement) that saved them, not obedience to the law (which they were not).

so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Book of the Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike to Book of the Law.

So living by faith is living in obedience to the Book of the Law (which is doing the works of that law, right?)
but works of the law do not justify because they are not of faith in God, unlike faith in the Book of the Law (which is faith in God, and is likewise doing the works of that Book of the Law, right)?

So faith in a book is faith in God, but obedience to that book is not faith in God, rather it is faith in works?
That makes no sense. . .

Are you saying the Book of the Law is the Pentateuch, rather than the law of Moses?
Okay. . .but Romans, Galatians, etc. deal with the Mosaic law, not the Book of the Law (Pentateuch),
so that distinction would be meaningless here regarding Romans and Galatians.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely on God's law is to rely on God.

So relying on one's obedience to God's Mosaic law is relying on God?

For how do you rely on God's law without obeying it? What are you relying on. . .paper and ink?
And relying on it (which is to obey it) does not justify, because justification is by faith?

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

Precisely. . .and
Romans 1:18-32 shows that the obedience of the Gentiles to the law of their consciences was not according to God's standards, and
Romans 2:1-3:8 shows that the obedience of the Jews to the law of Moses was not according to God's standards, so that
Romans 3:9-20 concludes that no one, not even one (v.10), in all mankind, receives life by the righteousness of law-keeping,
because righteousness is only from God by faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning work, apart from
law-keeping (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5).

So observe the Law of God according to His requirements was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that can't do, which only leads to death.

Which choice and possibility the NT apostle reveals they did not make, and it did not occur (Romans 3:9-20).

In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it is not what was good that brought death to him, yet you are arguing that it is what is good that brought death to him.

Agreed. . .disobedience to the good law brought death to them.

Furthermore, there is a difference between the law of sin that is a desire that leads to sin that Romans 7:5 is speaking about and the Law of God, which has death as the penalty for refusing to submit to it.

Agreed. . . the "law of sin" is a power/force operating within the sinner, leading him to disobey the "law of God," which is the written code.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, which is the Law of Moses.

No. . .the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic covenant and law (Jeremiah 31:32) that was made with Israel and Judah.
It is a new covenant and a new law (Matthew 22:37-40), which fulfills/completes the Old Covenant Mosaic law "and whatever other commandments there may be" (Romans 13:8-10).

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it, so all of the Law of Moses was given by God and is thus the Law of God. Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, idolatry, murder, rape, incest, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for all of the other laws of God, so the command to love fulfills the other laws because it is inclusive of them. Someone who followed the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who followed the Law of Moses because both would be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, obedience to God's law brings life, while it only brings death to those who refuse to submit to it. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 32:47, it is our very life. In Psalms 119:45, the Law of Moses is a law of liberty, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Holy Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses.

Agreed. . . the law is God's, the law is good, it is the fault of the people that they are unrighteous (Hebrews 8:7), it is not an indictment of the law.

Actually, the good law did all it was given to do: to reveal sin (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7)
and to lead to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
Now that faith in Christ has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25).

The sum of everything that Christ taught by word and by example was how to obey the Law of Moses, so the Law of Christ could not be something other than what Christ taught.

The law of Christ is plainly stated in Matthew 22:37-40, where it is also stated that it fulfills/completes the Mosaic law, and it is likewise plainly stated in Romans 13:8-10 that it fulfills/completes "whatever other commandment there may be."

There are not multiple different Laws of God, so you are making a false dichotomy.

Your problem is with what the NT teaches. . .and that's above my pay grade.
"All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:40)
And "Love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10)

Christ said nothing about freeing us from the Law of Moses,

The NT word of God is more than just the red letters.

but rather he spent his ministry calling for people to return to obedience to it. The reason why God freed the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt was not in order to put them under bondage to the Mosaic Law, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1),

Freedom from what?. . .a yoke of slavery (Galatians 5:1). . .to the law (Galatians 2:4).

and again the Mosaic Law is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45). In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

Only by obedience to it, which no one, not even one, has done (Romans 3:10), all are under sin (Romans 3:9).

So in closing, it can all be summarized in:

The Decalogue and Levitical laws were the condition of the Mosaic Covenant, which had been temporarily added to the Abrahamic Covenant (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20). All were given for the purpose of revealing sin (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7) and of leading to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
Now that faith in Christ has come (the Mosaic law fulfilling its purpose and now being fulfilled in the NT law of Christ, Matthew 22:37-40), we are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant (Hebrews 8:13) nor under the supervision of the Mosaic law (Galatians 3:25).

The law has done what it was intended to do. . .the old covenant is now obsolete. . .and we are back to a covenant of grace alone, (Ephesians 2:8-9) just as it was with Abraham.

It is for freedom (from the yoke of slavery to the law, Galatians 2:4, Galatians 5:1b) that Christ has set us free (Galatians 5:1a) and taken us back to a covenant of grace alone.

Keeping in mind that loving your neighbor as yourself is not new to the NT, but it was not part of the Mosaic law on which the temporary Mosaic Covenant was conditioned and, therefore, it remains--as the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Matthew 22:37-40), and which now fulfills that temporary Mosaic law "and any other commandment there may be." (Romans 13:8-10).

 

[Clare73]

Where did any one post to you that we are declared righteous through keeping the law

It goes to my paraphrase, "the law is death."

and if no one has ever said to you that we are made righteous through keeping the law why are you pretending that they have? Now if we are in agreement that no one is declared righteous through keeping the law then what is your argument? You have none because we are both in agreement. As posted earlier and proven from the scriptures what we are in disagreement about is your claims that the law is death. As shown from the scriptures earlier the law is not death, sin is (Romans 7:12-13; Romans 6:23). All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is when Gods' law is broken *Romans 7:7. According to the scriptures no one is "under the law" unless they stand guilty before God of breaking the law *Romans 3:19. The new covenant promise is God's law written in the heart to love in all those who have been born again into Gods' new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Those who are born again to love according to the scriptures however do not practice known unrepentant sin which is defined in the scriptures as knowingly breaking Gods' law and not believing and following what Gods Word says (see 1 John 3:4-9; Romans 14:23)

Take Care.

 

[Clare73]

Context matters.

Paul's use of the term "Under the Law" as in Rom 3:19-20 is in the context of "under the condemnation of the Law" and it results in "every mouth closed" and "all the world held accountable" for "all have sinned" as Paul points out in Rom 3.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed,

And in context that means apart from law keeping. . .there is righteousness by faith, apart from law keeping (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5).

being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ

This righteousness from God is through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from law keeping.

for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
That is the moral law of God

What in the above is the moral law of God?
The law?. ..And apart from which law keeping is righteousness by faith?

and it includes things like "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 and also "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 as well as the other TEN Commandments being included in it.
And it is in that SAME LAW that we find "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 (Which is true of the unit of TEN)
So that means the LAW includes "Do not covet" as Paul points out in Rom 3, and that means it would also include commandments not quoted by Paul such as "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

All of which are the law, and apart from those works of obedience is righteousness by faith.

And that is why Rom 3:31 is so "instructive"

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!
in fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31

Yes, we establish it on its right basis, which is not for the righteousness of justification, which is imputed to us by faith, as it was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3), but it is for the righteousness of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6-7), which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19).

How informative that we find that Law "Written on heart and mind" under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12

Indeed! That being the New Covenant law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-40), which fulfills/completes the law "and whatever other commandment there may be." (Romans 13:8-10)

 

[Clare73]

Mmmm....That's an interesting translation.

(CLV) Ga 3:20
Now there is not Mediator of one. Yet God is One.

Because it's really Galatians 3:10. . .typo

 

[Clare73]

...Or maybe the answer is much simpler. Maybe we can find the answer in 4Q-MMT, a scroll found at Betharaba, where Yochanan the Immerser lived, where Yahshua began his ministry. It speaks of Halacha, which can be found in the Talmud, man made traditions, which are not YHWH's Torah.
Here is the language found in that document:
מקצת מעשי התורה
Miqtsat Ma῾asei Ha-Torah

This translates to "works of the law."
Now considering that Paul, as a Pharisee, was most likely quite familiar with Halacha; and he's using the exact same language that is used to describe Halacha; and we know from Paul's letter to the Romans that "works of the law" is not the same as "YHWH's law;" might we not infer that Paul was speaking of Halacha?

It's a simple matter of grammar.

"Works of the law" are actions, God's law is commands in writing.

Works and commands are not the same thing.

It's not complicated.

 

[HARK!]

It's a simple matter of grammar.

"Works of the law" are actions, God's law is commands in writing.

Works and commands are not the same thing.

It's not complicated.

When God's commands are written on your heart; is that literal, or figurative?

The doers of the law will be justified. Which law, the Talmud, or YHWH's Law?