Which is the most accurate text?

[iamlamad]

From the KJV: Revelation 5

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.

In the making of the Received Text (Textus Receptus), Erasmus had only one text to work from for the Book of Revelation, and it was not a Byzantine text as all the rest of the New Testament was. He had many Byzantine texts for the rest of the New Testament. It would seem then that at least for the book of Revelation, perhaps the KJV is not the most accurate text.

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus died in our place, on the cross. He died right, for us who could not die right for our own sins. Plus, Jesus makes intercession for us, praying how we can not pray, ourselves.

So, I see it is possible the beasts are praying in the place of and along with whoever "us" includes.

When you pray with a child, you might say what the child needs to be saying.

Did the Revised Standard translators find "us" and change it to "men", or in their text did they find "men"?

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus died in our place, on the cross. He died right, for us who could not die right for our own sins. Plus, Jesus makes intercession for us, praying how we can not pray, ourselves.

So, I see it is possible the beasts are praying in the place of and along with whoever "us" includes.

When you pray with a child, you might say what the child needs to be saying.

Did the Revised Standard translators find "us" and change it to "men", or in their text did they find "men"?

No, they did not find "us." Their Greek Text was "them" not "us."

 

[Rubiks]

Honestly, I don't see a meaningful difference between the two.

 

[_Dave_]

From the KJV: Revelation 5

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.

In the making of the Received Text (Textus Receptus), Erasmus had only one text to work from for the Book of Revelation, and it was not a Byzantine text as all the rest of the New Testament was. He had many Byzantine texts for the rest of the New Testament. It would seem then that at least for the book of Revelation, perhaps the KJV is not the most accurate text.

That's a good question. I'm curious about the difference in wording in v. 9 between the two Bible versions.

 

[eleos1954]

From the KJV: Revelation 5

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.

In the making of the Received Text (Textus Receptus), Erasmus had only one text to work from for the Book of Revelation, and it was not a Byzantine text as all the rest of the New Testament was. He had many Byzantine texts for the rest of the New Testament. It would seem then that at least for the book of Revelation, perhaps the KJV is not the most accurate text.

us or them ... it does not matter ... the words are third person pronouns

Greek

autos: (1) self (emphatic) (2) he, she, it (used for the third pers. pron.) (3) the same
Original Word: αὐτός, αὐτή, αὐτό
Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun
Transliteration: autos
Phonetic Spelling: (ow-tos')
Definition: (1) self (emphatic) (2) he, she, it (used for the third person pronoun) (3) the same
Usage: he, she, it, they, them, same.

Men means mankind and in the context is referring to the "saved mankind".

Jesus paid the ransom that through Him mankind (us/them) might be saved.

 

[com7fy8]

No, they did not find "us." Their Greek Text was "them" not "us."

Thank you for taking the time. I am not claiming to be any expert on this kind of thing.

So, what you are saying is the King James original manuscripts have "us", while the Revised version translators in their manuscripts had "them".

I realize our motives and character can effect what we are ready to believe and what we say; so I stay open in prayer, about this kind of thing. I will likely never know enough from my own study of things, so I can know what is really true about different translators and manuscripts. There is no way, practically, I can know who is reliable and who is mistaken. So, I pray, knowing God knows I "might" not be honest enough to get what He really might know and tell.

But I'll offer what I have picked up, and you are welcome to share what you please about it >

(1) It seems reported that the King James original manuscript sources were used by the Greek speaking churches, while . . . maybe you are saying . . . a number of widely accepted more recent translations come mainly from manuscript findings in Egypt.

(2) The Egyptian ones are older, so that ones understand this means they could be more reliable, more original and therefore more reliable. So, ones have been gravitating to depending the most on the Egyptian ones used to make what maybe is called the Alexandrian text.

(3) So, then > here we are, with ones using the "us" Greek and its resulting King James version; while others are the "them" guys using the Alexandrian source.

But . . . for all I know . . . if this is in the ball park of what is going on, there could have been Greek church manuscripts which were around before the Egyptian ones got started; and those were used to produce the Egyptian copies. But the copiers of the Greek might have felt uncomfortable with "us", since it can seem odd that the beasts in Heaven would pray "us". And so, they could have changed it in their copies which then went to where they were discovered. Meanwhile, the Greek ones they copied got worn out so only later copies of the Greek church scriptures could be discovered.

So, I'm open. Thank you for whatever you please to share about this

 

[iamlamad]

Honestly, I don't see a meaningful difference between the two.

There is a HUGE difference! If the author wrote"US" then the 4 beasts and all the elders had be men that were saved and made it to heaven. That is a HUGE problem: the 4 beasts are clearly NOT saved men. As for the 24 elders, this is way before the rapture. It was 95 AD when John was called up to heaven. The elders cannot be raptured church members.

In fact, if we understand the TIMING in this vision, there are good reasons to believe John was seeing into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth or under the earth. If that is the case, then WHO could these 24 beings be?

If the author wrote "Men" and "them" then they can be angels or perhaps Old Testament saints in their spirit form.

 

[RichardY]

The KJV does not use the word ransom, instead uses redemption. The RSV is more doctrinal. US is more collective(demonically influenced), where as men can be treated individually. Them is also in reference to a singular kingdom, and not kings.

 

[com7fy8]

As for the 24 elders, this is way before the rapture.

It doesn't say they were raptured, but redeemed from every tribe, tongue, people, nation.

Oh, I just see this, now > they are singing a new song.

You can sing a song which is not about you.

 

[iamlamad]

It doesn't say they were raptured, but redeemed from every tribe, tongue, people, nation.

Oh, I just see this, now > they are singing a new song.

You can sing a song which is not about you.

That is the point: were they singing about themselves or about others - as perhaps they were no included.

 

[iamlamad]

The KJV does not use the word ransom, instead uses redemption. The RSV is more doctrinal. US is more collective(demonically influenced), where as men can be treated individually. Them is also in reference to a singular kingdom, and not kings.

The point is, were they including themselves as part of the Redeemed? If so, then it would seem to say that the 4 beasts were also included in the redeemed. I don't think so!

 

[com7fy8]

That is the point: were they singing about themselves or about others - as perhaps they were no included.

I thought of this, which might be kind of a little different >

An adult can prepare a song which a child will sing, and even sing it in front of children so they can learn to sing it; but it does not say what is true about the adult. A person who has just suffered a major painful event, for example, could prepare a song which has children singing how happy they are. Yet, the writer might be the first to sing that song, knowing how unhappy he or she is.

Even if a song is what I will sing, it can first start in Heaven, then come to me. I might be singing something which is true about me and Jesus, but first the Holy Spirit prepared it . . . including for example how I might sing thanks to Jesus for saving me; but this started with the Holy Spirit who has not needed to be saved

And others in Heaven are included in ministering what is for us. So, it is possible the beasts and elders were in on the preparation of this song which is for us to sing. They could start it, in order to get the ministry of Heaven's own grace into it, then it can come, grace as well as words, to us.

 

[_Dave_]

OK. I'm going to take a stab at it in support of the KJV version.

Rev 5:8-19 -- And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I believe that there isn't a problem with the use of the first-person pronoun, so this is how I see it:

Two groups are in view here -- the four beasts, widely regarded to be high-standing angels, and the twenty elders, widely regarded to be representing the church. By taking the "they" to represent the nearest antecedent we see that "they" represents the twenty elders. Only the twenty elders sing the new song.

So, following the rule of the nearest antecedent, the first "us" represents the twenty elders; which is doubly certain because angels can't have been redeemed.

Likewise for the second "us" being promised to be made kings and priests; which has NEVER been promised to and applied to angels.

Similarly, the "we" can only refer to the twenty elders because angels in no way, shape or form have ever been promised to reign on the earth.

This is doubly proved if one tries to substitute "them" for the "us" and "we" pronouns. It makes no sense for the twenty elders who represent the church to sing a song for "them." Who exactly is the "them" that they are singing praise for, if not themselves; which would take the first-person pronoun "us?"

I'm not even going to get into a debate about the motivation for the change in later translations from the first person to the third person because of the different manuscripts used in Bible translations. I'm just merely pointing out what I believe is an accurate understanding of the King James Version.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

From the KJV: Revelation 5

9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals;
For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for Godv from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.
.

Probably best to post that on this board or sub boards:

Christian Scriptures

That aside.
The B-M, Alex, and H W disagrees with the TR [which the KJV follows].

New American Standard Bible
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God;
and they will reign upon the earth."

King James Bible
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

T-R
21x in 13 unique form(s)
βασιλεύει — 1x
βασιλεύειν — 1x
βασιλευέτω — 1x
βασιλευόντων — 1x
βασιλεῦσαι — 2x
βασιλεύσει — 2x
βασιλεύσῃ — 1x

βασιλεύσομεν — 1x Parsing: Future Indicative Active
1st Person Plural

βασιλεύσουσιν — 3x
ἐβασίλευσαν — 1x
ἐβασίλευσας — 1x
ἐβασιλεύσατε — 2x
ἐβασίλευσεν — 4x

Rev 5:10 - And have made us[fn] kings[fn] and priests to our God;
And we[fn] shall reign on the earth.”

==========================
mGNT
21x in 12 unique form(s)
βασιλεύει — 1x
βασιλεύειν — 1x
βασιλευέτω — 1x
βασιλευόντων — 1x
βασιλεῦσαι — 2x
βασιλεύσει — 2x
βασιλεύσῃ — 1x

βασιλεύσουσιν — 4x Parsing: Future Indicative Active
3rd Person Plural

ἐβασίλευσαν — 1x
ἐβασίλευσας — 1x
ἐβασιλεύσατε — 2x
ἐβασίλευσεν — 4x

Rom 5:17 - For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rev 5:10 - And have made us[fn] kings[fn] and priests to our God;
And we[fn] shall reign on the earth.”
Rev 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 22:5 - There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
=================================

"and shall be reigning/reign<936> on/upon<1909> the land"

1909. epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.;..................

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Revelation 5:10

Stephens 1550/1894 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsaV hmas tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV
kai basileusomen epi thV ghV

Byzantine Majority
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV
kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Alexandrian
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileian kai iereiV
kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Hort and Westcott
kai epoihsaV autouV tw qew hmwn basileian kai iereiV
kai basileuousin epi thV ghV
================================

New International Version
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

New Living Translation
And you have caused them to become a Kingdom of priests for our God. And they will reign on the earth.”

English Standard Version
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

Berean Study Bible
You have made them into a kingdom, priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

Berean Literal Bible
and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

New American Standard Bible
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

King James Bible
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth.

Contemporary English Version
You let them become kings and serve God as priests, and they will rule on earth."

Good News Translation
You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God, and they shall rule on earth."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth.

International Standard Version
You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."

NET Bible
You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

New Heart English Bible
and made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on earth."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You made them a kingdom and priests for our God. They will rule as kings on the earth."

New American Standard 1977
“ And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
and hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

King James 2000 Bible
And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

American King James Version
And have made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

American Standard Version
and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

Darby Bible Translation
and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

English Revised Version
and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
And hast made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Weymouth New Testament
And hast formed them into a Kingdom to be priests to our God, And they reign over the earth."

World English Bible
and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on earth."

Young's Literal Translation
and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'

Revelation 5:10 Commentaries: "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

 

[Marilyn C]

From the KJV: Revelation 5

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.

In the making of the Received Text (Textus Receptus), Erasmus had only one text to work from for the Book of Revelation, and it was not a Byzantine text as all the rest of the New Testament was. He had many Byzantine texts for the rest of the New Testament. It would seem then that at least for the book of Revelation, perhaps the KJV is not the most accurate text.

Hi iamlamad,

The 4 living creatures are the 4 ministries of the Lord. The 24 elders are the representation of the Body of Christ. The `error` is the word `ON.` The Greek word is `epi` and means over or on. As we will rule and reign from the throne of the Lord in the third heaven, then we will rule OVER the earth not on it. Israel has always been promised to rule on the earth.

Marilyn.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi iamlamad,

The 4 living creatures are the 4 ministries of the Lord. The 24 elders are the representation of the Body of Christ. The `error` is the word `ON.` The Greek word is `epi` and means over or on. As we will rule and reign from the throne of the Lord in the third heaven, then we will rule OVER the earth not on it. Israel has always been promised to rule on the earth.

Marilyn.

Marilyn, show us the scriptural proof these 24 elders are of the body of Christ. They could be un-resurrected Old Testament saints or they could be angels.

This was a vision of a time while Christ was still on earth: how could they possibly be New Testament saints?

Probably best to post that on this board or sub boards:

Christian Scriptures

That aside.
The B-M, Alex, and H W disagrees with the TR [which the KJV follows].

New American Standard Bible
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God;
and they will reign upon the earth."

King James Bible
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
and we shall reign on the earth.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

T-R
21x in 13 unique form(s)
βασιλεύει — 1x
βασιλεύειν — 1x
βασιλευέτω — 1x
βασιλευόντων — 1x
βασιλεῦσαι — 2x
βασιλεύσει — 2x
βασιλεύσῃ — 1x

βασιλεύσομεν — 1x Parsing: Future Indicative Active
1st Person Plural

βασιλεύσουσιν — 3x
ἐβασίλευσαν — 1x
ἐβασίλευσας — 1x
ἐβασιλεύσατε — 2x
ἐβασίλευσεν — 4x

Rev 5:10 - And have made us[fn] kings[fn] and priests to our God;
And we[fn] shall reign on the earth.”

==========================
mGNT
21x in 12 unique form(s)
βασιλεύει — 1x
βασιλεύειν — 1x
βασιλευέτω — 1x
βασιλευόντων — 1x
βασιλεῦσαι — 2x
βασιλεύσει — 2x
βασιλεύσῃ — 1x

βασιλεύσουσιν — 4x Parsing: Future Indicative Active
3rd Person Plural

ἐβασίλευσαν — 1x
ἐβασίλευσας — 1x
ἐβασιλεύσατε — 2x
ἐβασίλευσεν — 4x

Rom 5:17 - For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rev 5:10 - And have made us[fn] kings[fn] and priests to our God;
And we[fn] shall reign on the earth.”
Rev 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 22:5 - There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
=================================

"and shall be reigning/reign<936> on/upon<1909> the land"

1909. epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.;..................

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Revelation 5:10

Stephens 1550/1894 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsaV hmas tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV
kai basileusomen epi thV ghV

Byzantine Majority
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV
kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Alexandrian
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileian kai iereiV
kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Hort and Westcott
kai epoihsaV autouV tw qew hmwn basileian kai iereiV
kai basileuousin epi thV ghV
================================

New International Version
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

New Living Translation
And you have caused them to become a Kingdom of priests for our God. And they will reign on the earth.”

English Standard Version
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

Berean Study Bible
You have made them into a kingdom, priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

Berean Literal Bible
and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

New American Standard Bible
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

King James Bible
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth.

Contemporary English Version
You let them become kings and serve God as priests, and they will rule on earth."

Good News Translation
You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God, and they shall rule on earth."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth.

International Standard Version
You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."

NET Bible
You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

New Heart English Bible
and made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on earth."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You made them a kingdom and priests for our God. They will rule as kings on the earth."

New American Standard 1977
“ And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
and hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

King James 2000 Bible
And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

American King James Version
And have made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

American Standard Version
and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

Darby Bible Translation
and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

English Revised Version
and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
And hast made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Weymouth New Testament
And hast formed them into a Kingdom to be priests to our God, And they reign over the earth."

World English Bible
and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on earth."

Young's Literal Translation
and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'

Revelation 5:10 Commentaries: "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

So what was your conclusion? It seems to me the KJV missed it here.
Of course the real question is WHO the 24 elders are or who they are to represent.
They could be un-resurrected Old Testament saints.
They could be angels.

I don't see any possible way they are New Testament saints. Thanks for the in depth report!

 

[iamlamad]

OK. I'm going to take a stab at it in support of the KJV version.



I believe that there isn't a problem with the use of the first-person pronoun, so this is how I see it:

Two groups are in view here -- the four beasts, widely regarded to be high-standing angels, and the twenty elders, widely regarded to be representing the church. By taking the "they" to represent the nearest antecedent we see that "they" represents the twenty elders. Only the twenty elders sing the new song.

So, following the rule of the nearest antecedent, the first "us" represents the twenty elders; which is doubly certain because angels can't have been redeemed.

Likewise for the second "us" being promised to be made kings and priests; which has NEVER been promised to and applied to angels.

Similarly, the "we" can only refer to the twenty elders because angels in no way, shape or form have ever been promised to reign on the earth.

This is doubly proved if one tries to substitute "them" for the "us" and "we" pronouns. It makes no sense for the twenty elders who represent the church to sing a song for "them." Who exactly is the "them" that they are singing praise for, if not themselves; which would take the first-person pronoun "us?"

I'm not even going to get into a debate about the motivation for the change in later translations from the first person to the third person because of the different manuscripts used in Bible translations. I'm just merely pointing out what I believe is an accurate understanding of the King James Version.

Please show us by scripture how you can prove these are New Testament saints. I don't think it is possible. Are you thinking un-resurrected saints? I still can't see how that was possible.

I see this vision of the throne room to be a vision of John's pasts. God wanted to show John (and then us) the Book that would eventually get Satan kicked off his throne as the prince of this world. God CHOSE to show John the beginning of the story, when the book was still in the Father's right hand. So of necessity He had to show history.

First was a view of the throne room where Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father. Second was the throne room with the Holy Spirit present (as the 7 spirits of God). Third was the search for one worthy to open the book, that ended in failure. All these clues are showing us a throne room BEFORE Christ rose from the dead.

If this is the Father's intent - and I am convinced it is - then they cannot be New Testament saints. They could be angels, or they could be un-resurrected Old Testament saints. There is one other possibility: when Jesus died there was a great earthquake and graves were opened. Then at Jesus resurrection they came out of their graves and appeared to others. Therefore there is a slight possibility that these are resurrected Old Testament saints.

Perhaps the timing of Rev. 4 is JUST after Jesus rose from the dead, but He was not yet found worthy to open the book. Perhaps at that time the search party John watched was still searching heaven. It seems Jesus did not ascended into heaven until 5:6. This was probably the time He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended; then after sending Mary away, He ascended, and John got to see this moment in time in the vision.

I see a possibility then that these 24 elders are resurrected Old Testament saints. I see NO possibility that these can be New Testament saints. You make a good point on the pronouns.

 

[_Dave_]

This was a vision of a time while Christ was still on earth: how could they possibly be New Testament saints?

Most of Revelation (from Ch. 4 on) is future.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (Ch. 1), and the things which are (Ch. 2-3), and the things which shall be hereafter; (Ch 4-22)​

Since John experienced his heavenly exposure to future Revelation events as they occurred on earth, and returned and penned them about 95 AD, Christ was long gone from his earthly ministry by then.

Of course, many disagree about the timing of the writing of Revelation; and about much of Revelation actually.

 

[iamlamad]

I thought of this, which might be kind of a little different >

An adult can prepare a song which a child will sing, and even sing it in front of children so they can learn to sing it; but it does not say what is true about the adult. A person who has just suffered a major painful event, for example, could prepare a song which has children singing how happy they are. Yet, the writer might be the first to sing that song, knowing how unhappy he or she is.

Even if a song is what I will sing, it can first start in Heaven, then come to me. I might be singing something which is true about me and Jesus, but first the Holy Spirit prepared it . . . including for example how I might sing thanks to Jesus for saving me; but this started with the Holy Spirit who has not needed to be saved

And others in Heaven are included in ministering what is for us. So, it is possible the beasts and elders were in on the preparation of this song which is for us to sing. They could start it, in order to get the ministry of Heaven's own grace into it, then it can come, grace as well as words, to us.

This whole discussion started with some trying to prove these elders were New Testament saints, and others trying to prove they could not be.

I personally think they are Old Testament saints. I think it impossible they are New Testament saints simply because of timing. I see these two chapters as a vision of the past: note that in 5:6 John got to see in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.