Which is easier...?

Saricharity · Apr 5, 2015

I would think neither as both people wouldn't pay attention anyways. Neither group gives the other any credit. It's merely two groups trying to convince the other they are wrong.

I have sat through classes that teach evolution. I have sat through conversations with ardent believers in evolution. I read so many threads on this forum by people who believe in evolution. I have read about evolution. It's the same old thing. If I don't join the club, I don't understand the theory or I have cognitive dissonance or I will change my mind when I get out in the real world or .... Fill in the blank...
I understand it. I do not have cognitive dissonance. I won't change my mind.
Stop trying to make sense of it and just accept it.

Gracchus · Apr 5, 2015

Jennae said:
Stop trying to make sense of it and just accept it.

And that is one difference between religion (eta) and science. Religion has stopped trying to make sense of the world, and religion thinks that is a good thing. All that is needed is to be subject to your masters, resign to misery, bow down unquestioningly before ignorance, and drop a dime into the collection plate as payment for promised pie in the sky in the sweet by-and-by. Excuse avoidable evils, because, after all, we weaklings, "born in sin" cannot do better than accept and grovel and bribe, so that the master may condescend to forgive.
I remember, perhaps imperfectly, C.S. Lewis' little book, The Great Divorce, where, at the last minute, the hero is rescued from hell, where people are all praying, listening to sermons, and singing hymns, forever.
You don't go to hell, you just stop there. Hell happens when you stop trying to make sense, and just accept.

PsychoSarah · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
Because physical evidence didn't get you lost in the first place, and physical evidence isn't going to get you saved.

You only use physical evidence to "stay lost."

In other words, as an excuse not to get saved.

The problem isn't a mental one, it is a spiritual one.

Note what Abraham tells the rich man, who begs Abraham to send someone to his lost brothers ...

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Excuse me? As an excuse to "stay lost"? You have to be joking AV, you KNOW that I do not consider physical evidence to have any leanings in regards to the existence of deities.

Perhaps you are confused by the fact that I consider physical evidence to indicate the lack of an afterlife? I view the two items as separate issues. Deities could exist while an afterlife doesn't.

True, physical evidence pretty much destroys any literal interpretation of the bible, but my perspective goes beyond just your specific religious views, and even organized religion altogether. I am open to evidence for any sort of deity, not just the one you worship. And even if someone showed me evidence enough to convince me of a deity's existence, it wouldn't guarantee that I would worship it, although I would still be technically a theist at that point.

Why would I prevent myself from being "saved"? Your idea is illogical, no one willfully puts themselves in a position of ruin without it furthering some goal, and there is no goal to be had in this case. How about you not make claims upon my "mental and spiritual" issues, and ask me instead?

AV1611VET · Apr 5, 2015

PsychoSarah said:
How about you not make claims upon my "mental and spiritual" issues, and ask me instead?

No, thanks.

The Bible says otherwise.

So ANYTHING you tell me otherwise, I'll consider wrong.

As the Bible says, It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So It knows you better than you know yourself.

You can claim It doesn't apply to you all you want.

Getting me to believe that though is different.

crjmurray · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
No, thanks.

The Bible says otherwise.

So ANYTHING you tell me otherwise, I'll consider wrong.

As the Bible says, It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So It knows you better than you know yourself.

You can claim It doesn't apply to you all you want.

Getting me to believe that though is different.

That's a little rude when it comes to someone's personal beliefs.

PsychoSarah · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
No, thanks.

The Bible says otherwise.

So ANYTHING you tell me otherwise, I'll consider wrong.

As the Bible says, It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So It knows you better than you know yourself.

You can claim It doesn't apply to you all you want.

Getting me to believe that though is different.

Nice of you to quote the bible stating it knows everything, rather than the quote where it claims what people such as myself percieve. You haven't justified what you said with that.

AV1611VET · Apr 5, 2015

crjmurray said:
That's a little rude when it comes to someone's personal beliefs.

Tough.

AV1611VET · Apr 5, 2015

PsychoSarah said:
Nice of you to quote the bible stating it knows everything, rather than the quote where it claims what people such as myself percieve. You haven't justified what you said with that.

Too bad.

It's been my signature here for nine years.

And I guarantee you I stand behind it.

crjmurray · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
Tough.

I'm jealous. I wish I could act that way here and not get banned.

PsychoSarah · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
Too bad.

It's been my signature here for nine years.

And I guarantee you I stand behind it.

Then please, where does the bible say your claims on my personal perspectives, rather than just where it says "bible is always right"? My point is that quoting that is insignificant if you don't provide the verse that supports your position on my views and why I have them.

Mr Strawberry · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
No, thanks.

The Bible says otherwise.

So ANYTHING you tell me otherwise, I'll consider wrong.

As the Bible says, It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So It knows you better than you know yourself.

You can claim It doesn't apply to you all you want.

Getting me to believe that though is different.

This is just disturbed.

AV1611VET · Apr 5, 2015

PsychoSarah said:
Then please, where does the bible say your claims on my personal perspectives, rather than just where it says "bible is always right"? My point is that quoting that is insignificant if you don't provide the verse that supports your position on my views and why I have them.

For the second time ...

If you (or anyone) think that all you need is evidence to convince you to get saved ... you're severely mistaken.

For the second time ...

The rich man who died asked Abraham to send someone from the dead to convince his brothers of the existence of Hell, and this is how Abraham responded:

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Even God shouting from the sky isn't going to cut it:

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

For the second time ...

Even when Jesus physically rules and reigns on the earth for 1000 years, look what's going to happen:

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9a And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

Now if somehow you don't think these principles apply to you because you're some kind of exemption, I think you're wrong.

For the second time ...

Evidence is not going to solve your problem. Evidence is for the brain, which is part of the body.

But salvation is not a mental issue, it is a spiritual issue ... meaning it comes from the heart, and not the brain.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It does not say ...

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe the evidence with thine own eyes that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So all the evidence in the universe, including Jesus reigning in Person for a thousand years, isn't going to solve your problem.

These guys who claimed they were once atheists, but got saved because they looked at the evidence and concluded GOD DID IT are, in my opinion, doing more harm than good.

Books like Evidence that Demands a Verdict can take a hike.

AV1611VET · Apr 5, 2015

Mr Strawberry said:
This is just disturbed.

That's probably because you don't know the difference between the BRAIN and the HEART in Christian theology.

PsychoSarah · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
For the second time ...

If you (or anyone) think that all you need is evidence to convince you to get saved ... you're severely mistaken.

For the second time ...

The rich man who died asked Abraham to send someone from the dead to convince his brothers of the existence of Hell, and this is how Abraham responded:

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Even God shouting from the sky isn't going to cut it:

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

For the second time ...

Even when Jesus physically rules and reigns on the earth for 1000 years, look what's going to happen:

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9a And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

Now if somehow you don't think these principles apply to you because you're some kind of exemption, I think you're wrong.

For the second time ...

Evidence is not going to solve your problem. Evidence is for the brain, which is part of the body.

But salvation is not a mental issue, it is a spiritual issue ... meaning it comes from the heart, and not the brain.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It does not say ...

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe the evidence with thine own eyes that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So all the evidence in the universe, including Jesus reigning in Person for a thousand years, isn't going to solve your problem.

These guys who claimed they were once atheists, but got saved because they looked at the evidence and concluded GOD DID IT are, in my opinion, doing more harm than good.

Books like Evidence that Demands a Verdict can take a hike.

Wow the bible thinks people are stupid. Look, I will tell you right now, no matter how much lead I consume, unless some supernatural force makes it so evidence like that isn't convincing, people would totally be convinced by it. For crying out loud, why would people be convinced by the ressurection of JESUS and not someone else? Heck, people are convinced of the divine in rather mundane things sometimes.

Additionally, it sounds like a bit of a cop-out to just say "oh, it won't work" without even trying. Additionally, what if the voice sounded like thunder, and some people didn't have good enough hearing to distinguish the words? Or people thought they heard words but it really was just thunder? Can you not understand that? What is the point of that if only people who believe in it (who are biased in favor of reading into the event) experience the divine?

I don't think I am some kind of exception, when have I ever suggested anything like that? I am stating that people are not so stupid that they won't conclude Christian apocalypse if Jesus rises again and some dude starts branding people with 666. Even if Christianity stopped being a surviving religion for hundreds of years, there would still be records of its existence. People would notice. People would make the connection.

lewiscalledhimmaster · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
* By the way, this poll is still open. *

So is my Easter egg.

AV1611VET · Apr 5, 2015

lewiscalledhimmaster said:
So is my Easter egg.

No yoke?

PsychoSarah · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
No yoke?

You need to cut back on cholesterol anyways, AV. Keep that old heart healthy so you can stick around

JacksBratt · Apr 5, 2015

So, the barbs and jabs continue. The ribbing, jeering, and testing.

All the while the clock ticks away on the scale of this age. The vale is thinning, the incidence of unexplainable events will increase. The dimension of the spiritual becomes more and more visible.

The laws of science will be tested and questioned. The mind of man will be callused and blinded more and more to the obvious.

Governments corrupted, motives blurred, media more filtered and scripted as the civilized world is blindly lead to it's doom.

Who do you trust, what do you believe, truth will be like smoke and change as the wind of change decides to blow. What did you just see? Was it for real? What did they just say? Can that be? How does that fit to what we have always been told?

Friends, look around. Open your eyes. Things are about to get crazy. What do you stand on? Will you be on solid ground? Will you know where to turn? Reality is leaving, laws are bending. Choose your truth now while it can be chosen, hold tight, we're in for a ride.

crjmurray · Apr 5, 2015

JacksBratt said:
So, the barbs and jabs continue. The ribbing, jeering, and testing.

All the while the clock ticks away on the scale of this age. The vale is thinning, the incidence of unexplainable events will increase. The dimension of the spiritual becomes more and more visible.

The laws of science will be tested and questioned. The mind of man will be callused and blinded more and more to the obvious.

Governments corrupted, motives blurred, media more filtered and scripted as the civilized world is blindly lead to it's doom.

Who do you trust, what do you believe, truth will be like smoke and change as the wind of change decides to blow. What did you just see? Was it for real? What did they just say? Can that be? How does that fit to what we have always been told?

Friends, look around. Open your eyes. Things are about to get crazy. What do you stand on? Will you be on solid ground? Will you know where to turn? Reality is leaving, laws are bending. Choose your truth now while it can be chosen, hold tight, we're in for a ride.

I think proselytizing is for a different section of the forum

Gracchus · Apr 5, 2015

AV1611VET said:
That's probably because you don't know the difference between the BRAIN and the HEART in Christian theology.

In "Christian theology", it would seem, there is no functional difference between a brain and a meadow muffin.

Which is easier...?

Which is easier?

An evolutionist to sit through Instant Creation 101

An instant creationist to sit through Evolution 101

Neither

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