Which flag offends you more?

[variant]

Its figures are 75K vs. 50K.

In total, about 100,000 Kentuckians served in the Union Army. After April 1864, when the Union Army began recruiting African American soldiers in Kentucky, almost 24,000 joined to fight for their freedom. For the Confederacy, between 25,000 and 40,000 Kentuckians answered the call of duty. Their most celebrated unit was the First Kentucky “Orphan” Brigade. The Orphans fought hard on many western battlefields, and their heavy losses — especially in commanders — may have led to their nickname. In mid-1862, Benjamin H. Helm took command of the brigade and led it until his death the following year at the Battle of Chickamauga. Helm was President Lincoln’s brother-in-law.

http://www.civilwar.org/hallowed-ground-magazine/spring-2010/civil-war-kentucky.html

 

[seashale76]

It was the post war state that sympathized with the Confederacy not the non-secessionist Kentucky of the actual civil war era.

Like much of the south, Kentucky has tried to rewrite it's history.

Except not. I've lived in Kentucky all my life. Sorry, but I really don't see this type of Confederate madness you're claiming here. The occasional redneck with the flag in the pick-up truck isn't even remotely on par with what I've seen elsewhere in other states.

 

[variant]

Except not. I've lived in Kentucky all my life. Sorry, but I really don't see this type of Confederate madness you're claiming here. The occasional redneck with the flag in the pick-up truck isn't even remotely on par with what I've seen elsewhere in other states.

The monuments are a product of a differn't era (post civil war) I am not claiming the sentiment exists there today.

This book details it:

http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Confederate-Kentucky-Memory-America/dp/1469609835

And this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Confederate-Kentucky-1830-1880-Cambridge/dp/1107000890

Southern cause erected monuments, sometimes im-posing, sometimes modest, to the Lost Cause between 1895 and 1925 in greater numbers than ever before. From Fulton on the Mississippi River to Owingsville in the Appalachian foothills, twenty-seven Confederate monuments sprang up on courthouse lawns, in town squares, and in cemeteries across Kentucky. By contrast, in the same time period, white Union partisans built only three monuments. The lopsided numbers are indicative of the way that the Confederate war memory, through organiza-tions, national reunions, and other means, came to dominate Kentucky's historical landscape well into the twentieth century. Within a memo-rial climate that increasingly focused on forgetting past grievances and reuniting with old enemies, the Lost Cause won the day. Yet the monuments and public displays obscured the strident efforts of other Kentucki-ans who sought to subvert Confederate historical interpretation and clarify the Union war record. Although their efforts were less successful and therefore ultimately less memorable, they stand as testimony to the active historical conversation surrounding Kentucky's role in the Civil War into the twentieth century.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Given the fact that it starts being flown by state governments during the Civil Rights movement it is pretty clear they were sticking their fingers in the eyes of black people.

Um, I think this will set things straight on the subject. It's from National Public Radio, so I don't think it's got a bias to it. It states the following:
Why is it flying at the Statehouse in Columbia, S.C.?

i
The Confederate flag flies on the dome of the Statehouse in Columbia, S.C., in 2000.

Eric Draper/Associated Press The flag was first flown over the state Capitol dome (passed by the Democratic Legislature) in 1962 to mark the centennial of the start of the Civil War, but many saw it as a reaction to the civil-rights movement and school desegregation. For nearly four decades, it continued to be a controversial issue in the Palmetto State.

Here is the linc to the article http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...ted-political-history-of-the-confederate-flag

Lest we forget:

http://d35brb9zkkbdsd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/lunch-counter.jpg

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

I'm a historian by profession.

Nice claim.I've heard such things before but what I've found overwhelmingly to be the case, is the integrity of any profession is compromised by politics. Ideology has become as much of a religion in this country as Christianity and Ideologues find it easy, some times to nudge information towards a common agenda that has little to do with accuracy. So please don't use some unconfirmed title to try an bolster an argument.

Conjured countries? How exactly did they go about conjuring up countries

Also nice. if you are toying with me then our conversation is at an end. I have very little tolerance for people who disrespect those they don't agree with. You know well that was a typo. what speaks volumes to me is you ignored the points I made and concentrated on childishness..

Gerontology? I wasn't aware we were talking about the study of aging.
No one is arguing that the Japanese were nice to the Koreans, but it had nothing to do with 'race.' Genetically they were indistinguishable.

You also know well what the response was about and I argued a point that you ignored as well. I've made my argument clear. If all you want to do is point out mistakes in spelling and grammar instead of debating the merits of my post I will simply bypass you.

 

[Axolotl]

As someone living in Northern Ireland I don't feel offended, as such, when I see a confederate flag simply because it isn't part of my history. I don't agree with what it represents and wouldn't want to be associated with people who do but where I am at the moment the bigger issue is people with paramilitary flags.

Another thing which I've noticed is that context can make a big difference to the symbolism of a flag. I don't believe that the Union Jack or a Tricolour symbolize anything offensive by themselves but when they're flown all over town alongside paramilitary and (for some reason) pirate flags they become somewhat more sinister. By the same measure a confederate flag in a museum bears a different significance to a confederate flag flown outside a town hall.

 

[Jan Volkes]

We must remember the standard education for most men at the time of that war was virtually nil, how many of them could read or write? how many of them had worn shoes before they went into the army? most of them had never washed other than to 'go skinny dippin in the crick', they could all most likely fire a gun but of those who died most of them died never having learnt a thing about anything other than pain, hunger and suffering and died while suffering from toothache through broken teeth.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

If you guys want to read up on the confederate flag here is a link to it's evolution through the years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

As someone living in Northern Ireland I don't feel offended, as such, when I see a confederate flag simply because it isn't part of my history. I don't agree with what it represents and wouldn't want to be associated with people who do but where I am at the moment the bigger issue is people with paramilitary flags.

Another thing which I've noticed is that context can make a big difference to the symbolism of a flag. I don't believe that the Union Jack or a Tricolour symbolize anything offensive by themselves but when they're flown all over town alongside paramilitary and (for some reason) pirate flags they become somewhat more sinister. By the same measure a confederate flag in a museum bears a different significance to a confederate flag flown outside a town hall.

Thank you. i too am not offended as those who overuse that word for political reasons do. What irritates me are those who have no opinion on something until it is popular to look down on it and then they dive upon the bandwagon as if they were the primarily effected by it. I've seen people in these forums chase around issues like they were trying to win a scavenger hunt for activists. People who chase issues around from hotspot to hotspot lack integrity and a sense of purpose, because all in all they just need to be needed. They don't put forth any real effort to right any wrongs but they sure are in love with the idea of being seen bringing the wrongs to others attention.

I see these people when I see them concentrating on this state or that country and actively denigrate those who bring up the same activities of other countries. This tells me it isn't the act and they aren't really interested in the well being of any aggrieved parties. They are only interested in getting together and blasting the target, mainly because they fit in with those around them.

I've also had people tell me that they want to make a difference, but they don't want to put forth any real physical effort in changing anyone's life. They would rather sign a petition in the comfort of their own home computer then go outside and help an elderly women shovel snow from her sidewalk.

I remember when there were communities and neighborhoods where people actually knew each other by name and now we have people making snide remarks under the anonymity of the internet. Hiding behind avatars and trying to destroy those they disagree with instead of trying to understand what they mean.

The internet gave us the opportunity to gather information but it took away our skills at being personable. I don't know about you, but i don't think 1/2 these people would tare into each other if they stood face to face. Not because of any chance of getting punched but the reality of seeing the hurt on a persons face when people resort to ugliness instead patience.

 

[Jan Volkes]

I don't know about you, but i don't think 1/2 these people would tare into each other if they stood face to face. Not because of any chance of getting punched but the reality of seeing the hurt on a persons face when people resort to ugliness instead patience.

That is 100% true, all because they teach believers to hate someone who does not believe as they do, which is just about everyone else.
Christians are only in agreement with other Christians because they rarely meet each other, like the Sunni and Shia Muslims they would be at each others throats if they did, all because the others were raised to believe a different myth than they were.

 

[Dave-W]

To me it is the Nazi flag from WW2 Germany.

 

[quatona]

To me it is the Nazi flag from WW2 Germany.

I´m offended now.

 

[Avid]

... Thank you. i too am not offended as those who overuse that word for political reasons do. What irritates me are those who have no opinion on something until it is popular to look down on it and then they dive upon the bandwagon as if they were the primarily effected by it. I've seen people in these forums chase around issues like they were trying to win a scavenger hunt for activists. People who chase issues around from hotspot to hotspot lack integrity and a sense of purpose, because all in all they just need to be needed. They don't put forth any real effort to right any wrongs but they sure are in love with the idea of being seen bringing the wrongs to others attention.

I see these people when I see them concentrating on this state or that country and actively denigrate those who bring up the same activities of other countries. This tells me it isn't the act and they aren't really interested in the well being of any aggrieved parties. They are only interested in getting together and blasting the target, mainly because they fit in with those around them.

I've also had people tell me that they want to make a difference, but they don't want to put forth any real physical effort in changing anyone's life. They would rather sign a petition in the comfort of their own home computer then go outside and help an elderly women shovel snow from her sidewalk.

I remember when there were communities and neighborhoods where people actually knew each other by name and now we have people making snide remarks under the anonymity of the internet. Hiding behind avatars and trying to destroy those they disagree with instead of trying to understand what they mean.

The internet gave us the opportunity to gather information but it took away our skills at being personable. I don't know about you, but i don't think 1/2 these people would tare into each other if they stood face to face. Not because of any chance of getting punched but the reality of seeing the hurt on a persons face when people resort to ugliness instead patience.

This is well put. It is similar to the point I have tried to make. There is an obvious connection to slavery in that flag, but we have established a similar connection with the US Flag. People do not seem to understand those times, and certain do not understand the players. First hand accounts of freed slaves showed they were never treated so well in the North as they had all their lives to that point.

We see a similar type of slavery going on presently, and we have too many people being treated as if they are not capable of taking any responsibility for their own upkeep. The politicians and their supporters that consider these people too inferior to care for themselves utilize their dependency for their own political purposes and monetary gain.

.

 

[Armoured]

To me it is the Nazi flag from WW2 Germany.

You realise that's the German military ensign, or battle flag, not the national flag, right? Or is this you being meta humorous because the Confederate Flag being discussed is a battle flag, not a national flag, too?

 

[Wrexscar]

As a European white male with a left wing political bias. I'm offended by neither flag.

Some of the ideas associated with those flags and some of the deeds carried out in the name of those flags. They do offend me but that is a different question.

 

[Dave-W]

You realise that's the German military ensign, or battle flag, not the national flag, right? Or is this you being meta humorous because the Confederate Flag being discussed is a battle flag, not a national flag, too?

Yes I know they both are battle flags. I find no humor in either. They are both symbolic of the same thing. Hatred. Racism. Slave labor. And in the case of the Nazi flag, the non-war extermination of 12 million undesirables: 6 million Jews plus 6 million catholics, communists, Roma, homosexuals and other political dissidents.

 

[DaisyDay]

Except not. I've lived in Kentucky all my life. Sorry, but I really don't see this type of Confederate madness you're claiming here. The occasional redneck with the flag in the pick-up truck isn't even remotely on par with what I've seen elsewhere in other states.

Have you lived in the mountains or the plains of Kentucky?

 

[NightHawkeye]

Okay, which is it...a throne or a white horse?
Many crowns on His head, you say? It's that white wool He has for hair...must be quite a mass of it, too.
And let's not forget those burning brass feet...not too comfy for the horse...

You seem to be arguing with me ... but all I did was provide a passage of scripture.

METAPHOR, people...look it up.
The Lord will come for His Bride, and everyone will know immediately that He has come. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
But don't go thinking you know exactly how it will happen.

Humility in all things is required. That's something to remember about FLAGS as well. Flags are used to stir up pride, the very opposite of humility. Though I admit some fondness for the Confederate flag, I am not dismayed by its being taken down from government buildings.

As for scripture, Barrd, it's worth remembering this in regard to humility:

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.​

 

[Avid]

You seem to be arguing with me ... but all I did was provide a passage of scripture...

Is it that they did not see that these two events were more than a thousand years apart from each other? We are not told exactly, so they may be many thousands of years apart. What the scriptures mean by "a short season" may be 90 days from the Earth-bound human's viewpoint (in addition to the thousand years initially described.) From God's viewpoint, we have no idea - could be additional hundreds or thousands of years...

It seems there is confusion that people have about Heaven. They think it is a place for them, and it is not. Also, they assume that is where they will go in the afterlife to experience bliss. That is true (to a certain point) for those who are right in God's sight, but those who reject Him have rejected that whole idea in the first place. Also, that is specifically for the time of human history that will transpire before Jesus Christ returns, as described in the scriptures you quoted. The Bride of Christ, the Lamb of God, is stated in scripture as the great and holy city, New Jerusalem, and it is THAT CITY (not God's "Heaven") that has streets paved with gold.

A c t s 3
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

R e v e l a t i o n 21
9 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

R e v e l a t i o n 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. ​

I could not tell you why you are having trouble, but it seems clear that people do not read the scriptures to find out for themselves, so we must be watchful for our sakes and for theirs. Please keep standing on the simple truth as it is given in God's own holy word.

 

[TheBarrd]

You seem to be arguing with me ... but all I did was provide a passage of scripture.

Humility in all things is required. That's something to remember about FLAGS as well. Flags are used to stir up pride, the very opposite of humility. Though I admit some fondness for the Confederate flag, I am not dismayed by its being taken down from government buildings.

As for scripture, Barrd, it's worth remembering this in regard to humility:

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.​

I think you just got in the line of fire, Nighthawkeye. I apologize.

 

[TheBarrd]

You seem to be arguing with me ... but all I did was provide a passage of scripture.

Humility in all things is required. That's something to remember about FLAGS as well. Flags are used to stir up pride, the very opposite of humility. Though I admit some fondness for the Confederate flag, I am not dismayed by its being taken down from government buildings.

As for scripture, Barrd, it's worth remembering this in regard to humility:

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.​

That is very good advice you gave there, about humility.
I'm sure I can benefit by it.

I think there might be a couple of other folks here who might benefit, too...