Which denomination....

[miamited]

Thanks, Ted. The question is, of course, what is the truth?

Hi CR,

Yes, that is the question to be answered. The truth is found in the Scriptures, but as is seen on these boards, individual and denominational 'interpretations' of that foundational truth can be elusive. I believe that the truth comes to us individually when we diligently seek for it through the Scriptures, always asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance and instruction before we begin.

When I sit down to read the Scriptures for understanding, I strive to always take a moment and ask my Father for that gift of the Spirit. I also try to stay away from commentaries and extrabiblical writings and ideas unless I have studied a particular passage for some time and after several readings and prayerful request for the Spirit's guidance, still have questions. I would say that this hasn't happened more than a couple of times in my 18 years of study. I find the Scriptures to be fairly easy to understand, but when we start pulling in commentaries and the like, we often get waylaid.

The Scriptures are written for an individual to understand. God has sent His written testimony to the world, but it is the individual heart that they speak to. Jesus has promised each one of us, God's children, that the Holy Spirit will guide us, each one as an individual, to the truth. A friend of mine was recounting for me an experience that she had in a service some time ago. The pastor was teaching on the resurrection of Lazarus and somehow at the end of his instruction commented, that based on the evidence of Jesus' work in that moment, that we must believe in reincarnation. She told me that she had no idea how it happened and would never think of disrupting a service, but she jumped up from her seat and cried out loudly to the pastor, "No! That isn't what that means at all." Her husband was visibly shaken by her outburst and she still to this day doesn't know how or why she would have done it. Personally, I think it was the Holy Spirit working in her to address the error, but the point is that if she didn't know the truth herself, she probably would have just let the comments pass and considered that since the man was a 'preacher' that he knew what he was talking about.

I attended a bible study at a fellowship that I was once associated with. The pastor was going through the book of Exodus and was explaining that the time of the events (the establishment of the tabernacle) that were then being discussed was a month after Israel had left Egypt. He had a note sheet and directed us all to look up the passage from which he had discerned this, Exodus 40:17. He read the passage and explained that there we could see that Israel had only been in the desert for one month. No one in the group said a word, but I saw that it clearly said that it was the first month of the second year. I let it go until he came to point where he asked if there were any questions and said, "Well, yea. My translation of the Scriptures says that it was the first month of the second year. Why are you telling us that this happened a month after Israel left Egypt?" At that point several other of the listeners spoke up and said that, yes, their Scriptures agreed with me. The pastor was flustered and stopped and read the passage and then said, "Well, let me research this and get back to you."

My point? Don't be satisfied to just listen to some pastor teaching every week to know the truth. We need to each one be like the Bereans. We need to know the Scriptures for ourselves and study them for ourselves. That is how we know whether someone is teaching the truth or not. Hundreds of thousands of people leave services each week thinking that they have been fed the truth, when the fact is, that unless they know the Scriptures for themselves and have studied and asked for the Holy Spirit's guidance, they don't honestly have a clue.

Just as in the days when Jesus walked among us, there are pastors and teachers just like the Scribes and Pharisees of his day. They believe that they know the truth, but they don't. They stand in pulpits expounding on the truth that they believe, but it's a lie.

God bless you in your diligent search for the truth.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

The so-called "conservative resurgence" (fundamentalist takeover) made it impossible for me to remain Southern Baptist. It was a major departure from historic Baptist principles. I am moderate in my beliefs, not fundamentalist or liberal. Plus, I don't believe in OSAS.

Hi CR,

I do believe in OSAS, but I base my definition of OSAS a little differently than many seem to say that it is.

We are set for salvation when our names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Not when we go down front and confess that we believe Jesus is our Savior or are baptized. Jesus addresses this issue. When speaking on this very subject of our soon coming salvation, he says that we will be saved when we believe and are baptized. So, I understand that there are two requisites for our soon coming salvation. We must first believe and then be baptized. The problem is that we fellow humans can't know any one else's heart. We can see the outward appearance of baptism, but we can't know the heart of the one being baptized.

The Scriptures infer that the disciples were baptized and yet Judas betrayed the Lord. I believe that there are some who would have said to him, "Oh, you've made a confession and been baptized so you will be saved." Living a life loving God changes a person. I know when I first made a confession of belief that my first prayer was that God would give me an unquenchable thirst to know Him through His written revelation to me. I can tell you that I was changed! I spent the better part of the next year of my life studying and reading and praying and poring over the Scriptures. I truly had an unquenchable thirst. This was evidence to me that God had heard and answered my prayer. I can tell you that before that day I would have found the Scriptures rather dull and trying reading, but my heart was changed. I wanted to know the truth! I sought for it like a baby suckles his mother's milk. I didn't have a single commentary at the time and still today very, very rarely use them.

When I see someone who has made a confession and been baptized who 6 months later is living pretty much the same kind of life that they lived before, then I generally assume that they got caught up in the moment, but the evidence of the changed life; the evidence of the deposit of the Holy Spirit in their lives just isn't there. Of course, God will be the judge of us all, but I firmly believe that OSAS comes about when our names are written in the Lamb's book of life and that isn't necessarily the day we confess and are baptized.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[CelticRebel]

Are there any American Baptist churches around? They might be a step less fundamentalist than Southern Baptists, but are often still pretty conservative. In many cases they also allow you to have convictions on various doctrines while still requiring some basics.

Soteriologically you appear to be closer to Methodism than many Baptist churches given the once saved always saved views.

(1) Christus Victor/Recapitulation/Ransom atonement

So just to clarify, no substitutionary?



Can you elaborate on this point a bit?



Are these in order of importance? I assume these two are negotiable?[/QUOTE]

There are no American Baptist churches anywhere near here. There is a Cooperative Baptist Fellowship church about 90 miles away.

I am strongly opposed to penal substitution.

Prayers for the dead, as in the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox traditions, not as in the RCC

Yes, the last two are negotiable.

 

[CelticRebel]

Hi CR,

Yes, that is the question to be answered. The truth is found in the Scriptures, but as is seen on these boards, individual and denominational 'interpretations' of that foundational truth can be elusive. I believe that the truth comes to us individually when we diligently seek for it through the Scriptures, always asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance and instruction before we begin.

When I sit down to read the Scriptures for understanding, I strive to always take a moment and ask my Father for that gift of the Spirit. I also try to stay away from commentaries and extrabiblical writings and ideas unless I have studied a particular passage for some time and after several readings and prayerful request for the Spirit's guidance, still have questions. I would say that this hasn't happened more than a couple of times in my 18 years of study. I find the Scriptures to be fairly easy to understand, but when we start pulling in commentaries and the like, we often get waylaid.

The Scriptures are written for an individual to understand. God has sent His written testimony to the world, but it is the individual heart that they speak to. Jesus has promised each one of us, God's children, that the Holy Spirit will guide us, each one as an individual, to the truth. A friend of mine was recounting for me an experience that she had in a service some time ago. The pastor was teaching on the resurrection of Lazarus and somehow at the end of his instruction commented, that based on the evidence of Jesus' work in that moment, that we must believe in reincarnation. She told me that she had no idea how it happened and would never think of disrupting a service, but she jumped up from her seat and cried out loudly to the pastor, "No! That isn't what that means at all." Her husband was visibly shaken by her outburst and she still to this day doesn't know how or why she would have done it. Personally, I think it was the Holy Spirit working in her to address the error, but the point is that if she didn't know the truth herself, she probably would have just let the comments pass and considered that since the man was a 'preacher' that he knew what he was talking about.

I attended a bible study at a fellowship that I was once associated with. The pastor was going through the book of Exodus and was explaining that the time of the events (the establishment of the tabernacle) that were then being discussed was a month after Israel had left Egypt. He had a note sheet and directed us all to look up the passage from which he had discerned this, Exodus 40:17. He read the passage and explained that there we could see that Israel had only been in the desert for one month. No one in the group said a word, but I saw that it clearly said that it was the first month of the second year. I let it go until he came to point where he asked if there were any questions and said, "Well, yea. My translation of the Scriptures says that it was the first month of the second year. Why are you telling us that this happened a month after Israel left Egypt?" At that point several other of the listeners spoke up and said that, yes, their Scriptures agreed with me. The pastor was flustered and stopped and read the passage and then said, "Well, let me research this and get back to you."

My point? Don't be satisfied to just listen to some pastor teaching every week to know the truth. We need to each one be like the Bereans. We need to know the Scriptures for ourselves and study them for ourselves. That is how we know whether someone is teaching the truth or not. Hundreds of thousands of people leave services each week thinking that they have been fed the truth, when the fact is, that unless they know the Scriptures for themselves and have studied and asked for the Holy Spirit's guidance, they don't honestly have a clue.

Just as in the days when Jesus walked among us, there are pastors and teachers just like the Scribes and Pharisees of his day. They believe that they know the truth, but they don't. They stand in pulpits expounding on the truth that they believe, but it's a lie.

God bless you in your diligent search for the truth.
In Christ, Ted

Thank you, Ted, for your detailed and thoughtful post -- very helpful.

 

[CelticRebel]

Hi CR,

I do believe in OSAS, but I base my definition of OSAS a little differently than many seem to say that it is.

We are set for salvation when our names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Not when we go down front and confess that we believe Jesus is our Savior or are baptized. Jesus addresses this issue. When speaking on this very subject of our soon coming salvation, he says that we will be saved when we believe and are baptized. So, I understand that there are two requisites for our soon coming salvation. We must first believe and then be baptized. The problem is that we fellow humans can't know any one else's heart. We can see the outward appearance of baptism, but we can't know the heart of the one being baptized.

The Scriptures infer that the disciples were baptized and yet Judas betrayed the Lord. I believe that there are some who would have said to him, "Oh, you've made a confession and been baptized so you will be saved." Living a life loving God changes a person. I know when I first made a confession of belief that my first prayer was that God would give me an unquenchable thirst to know Him through His written revelation to me. I can tell you that I was changed! I spent the better part of the next year of my life studying and reading and praying and poring over the Scriptures. I truly had an unquenchable thirst. This was evidence to me that God had heard and answered my prayer. I can tell you that before that day I would have found the Scriptures rather dull and trying reading, but my heart was changed. I wanted to know the truth! I sought for it like a baby suckles his mother's milk. I didn't have a single commentary at the time and still today very, very rarely use them.

When I see someone who has made a confession and been baptized who 6 months later is living pretty much the same kind of life that they lived before, then I generally assume that they got caught up in the moment, but the evidence of the changed life; the evidence of the deposit of the Holy Spirit in their lives just isn't there. Of course, God will be the judge of us all, but I firmly believe that OSAS comes about when our names are written in the Lamb's book of life and that isn't necessarily the day we confess and are baptized.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Thanks again, Ted. I greatly appreciate your taking the time to respond to me.

 

[miamited]

Hi CR,

Thanks for you kind words. If I may, let me expand a bit on this issue of salvation.

People talk about and ask, "Are you saved?" I'm not! I will be saved from the day of God's wrath and I certainly hope to enjoy the 1,000 years reign here on the earth with the Lord. However, I won't be saved, in other words the finished product of my faith, will not be seen until the day that God calls all mankind to account after the 1,000 years reign of the Lord upon the earth. At that time the books will be opened, and should my name be found in the Lamb's book of life, God will tell me to enter into His eternal rest. Then, I will be saved.

What I have today is exactly what Paul has told us. I have the indwelling Holy Spirit living in me as the deposit signifying the guarantee of my salvation to come. So, you'll probably find that this is a bit different than most baptists, and even many believers have, as regards this issue of salvation. I am not yet saved. But, I have the guarantee that tells me I will be. I believe that this is why the Scriptures speak of our working out our salvation and encourage us to endure to the end.

Jesus said: All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

and again: ...but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

I think it worth serious consideration that Jesus' instruction to us was that 'if' 'we stand firm to the end' we will be saved. He doesn't give any indication that we are, in the moments that we are living this life, saved.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[CelticRebel]

Hi CR,

Thanks for you kind words. If I may, let me expand a bit on this issue of salvation.

People talk about and ask, "Are you saved?" I'm not! I will be saved from the day of God's wrath and I certainly hope to enjoy the 1,000 years reign here on the earth with the Lord. However, I won't be saved, in other words the finished product of my faith, will not be seen until the day that God calls all mankind to account after the 1,000 years reign of the Lord upon the earth. At that time the books will be opened, and should my name be found in the Lamb's book of life, God will tell me to enter into His eternal rest. Then, I will be saved.

What I have today is exactly what Paul has told us. I have the indwelling Holy Spirit living in me as the deposit signifying the guarantee of my salvation to come. So, you'll probably find that this is a bit different than most baptists, and even many believers have, as regards this issue of salvation. I am not yet saved. But, I have the guarantee that tells me I will be. I believe that this is why the Scriptures speak of our working out our salvation and encourage us to endure to the end.

Jesus said: All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

and again: ...but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

I think it worth serious consideration that Jesus' instruction to us was that 'if' 'we stand firm to the end' we will be saved. He doesn't give any indication that we are, in the moments that we are living this life, saved.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Actually, I agree with you!

 

[Goodbook]

The truth does not vary if it's Jesus words.
That is why its important to go to scripture first. Then you can discern truth from error.

As for denoms and such, we know in part but when the perfect has come we will actually see Him face to face. I'm sorry to hear about church politics interfering with ppl's worship. This should not be. I don't live in america so not part of it, we do have baptist churches here, and for the most part they are apolitical.

 

[CelticRebel]

Some might find this thread interesting. It's an older thread that I found and posted in last night:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...osest-to-the-early-christians.7684878/page-13