Which Denomination Best Represents Christian Theology?

Which denomination is without error


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The Liturgist

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Did any of these "principles" find their way into Protestantism? Or, which ones missed the boat?

They definitely found their way into traditional Protestantism (denominations such as Lutheranism, High Church Anglicanism, Methodism, the Moravian Church, some liturgical Reformed churches, for instance, Presbyterian churches that adhere to Mercersburg Theology, and some traditional Congregationalist churches).

I suppose there might be some disagreement on what constitutes "the same Gospel given to the Holy Apostles". You mentioned Nicene. Is that the most reliable essence of the gospel message?

The Nicene Creed is the most reliable standard against which to compare a church and its beliefs in order to make sure their leadership are not abject heretics, basically. Every single cult mentioned in this thread for example violates the tenets of faith set forth in the Nicene Creed.

Or perhaps you don't see the gospel as a "message"?

I do see it as a message because the word Gospel is a translation of the sGreek Evangelion which literally means Good News. And News is, by definition, a message that is to be communicated via some form of media, with the Gospels being communicated in the most reliable way available to the fourth century Evangelists, as written manuscripts which could easily be copied and transported. Indeed, the Epistles of St. Paul and the other Apostles are almost like the first century equivalent of an e-mail or a blog posting (ugh, what a vulgar thought, thank goodness our Lord came 2,000 years ago and will come again soon, as opposed to having come in the 21st century, although I expect without Him having been here, if we had had thermonuclear weapons in the 20th century we would have have rendered the planet uninhabitable).
 
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The Liturgist

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I've been to more liturgical services in Lutheran and Methodist churches, and while I like it in one respect, I find it a little too stiff and formal in another respect.

It can be, but the stiffness is a rite-specific thing. The breathtakingly beautiful Eastern liturgical rites with the possible exception of the Armenian Rite and the Russian Old Rite, but including the Byzantine Rite, West Syriac Rite, East Syriac Rite, Coptic Rite and the Ethiopian Rite, are remarkably relaxed in terms of the laity, and even to some extent the clergy.
 
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The Liturgist

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Well, I read your posts you on a recent flat Earth/Earth is the centre of the universe type thread representing Relativity Theory well so I think you'd make a good drummer having such a good understanding of an abstract concept of time!

That’s very kind of you to say. I appreciate that.
 
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Ceallaigh

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It can be, but the stiffness is a rite-specific thing. The breathtakingly beautiful Eastern liturgical rites with the possible exception of the Armenian Rite and the Russian Old Rite, but including the Byzantine Rite, West Syriac Rite, East Syriac Rite, Coptic Rite and the Ethiopian Rite, are remarkably relaxed in terms of the laity, and even to some extent the clergy.
I like it. I love the antiquity and history of it. I'm just not used to it after a lifetime of standard Protestant churches. Someday I'll attend a mass (if that's what they call it) at a big Eastern Orthodox church. Where I live now it's a long drive to one. I've attended Roman Catholic mass a few times with friends and family.
 
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The Liturgist

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I like it. I love the antiquity and history of it. I'm just not used to it after a lifetime of standard Protestant churches. Someday I'll attend a mass (if that's what they call it) at a big Eastern Orthodox church.

Usually they call it the Divine Liturgy. The word Mass is actually derived from the dismissal at the end of a Traditional Latin Mass, “Ite, missa est.” Which is actually a classic example of one of the unique attributes of the Roman Rite, which is its brevity; the Eastern liturgies instead use equally beautiful but extremely florid language, so the equivalent dismissal in the Byzantine Rite takes about two minutes to say, rather than a few seconds.

These variations between liturgical rites are part of the unique charm of each rite and help make each rite what it is.

Where I live now it's a long drive to one. I've attended Roman Catholic mass a few times with friends and family.

The Novus Ordo mass can be OK, if it is celebrated reverently with traditional music, but if you can find a Traditional Latin Mass, those are truly exquisite and on a par with Byzantine, Syriac and Coptic liturgies.

There are also some liturgies which frustratingly aren’t accessible in North America, but you can watch them on YouTube. For example, the Ambrosian Rite and Mozarabic Rite, which are derived from the ancient Gallican Rite, which was replaced in France by the order of Charlemagne. However, the Mozarabic Rite remained in use in Muslim-occupied Spain, although sadly it dwindled down to just five parishes in Toledo in the 19th century, and they also eventually went over to the Roman Rite, but thankfully it is preserved in a dedicated chapel in the cathedral of Toledo, and is also occasionally celebrated in a nearby monastery. Pope John Paul II also celebrated it in 1995. The Ambrosian Rite has been somewhat more fortunate, in that it is still used by several million people, being the traditional liturgy of Milan. It was updated post Vatican II, but the ancient version is still celebrated in one dedicated church in Milan, and even with the 1960s modifications, the Ambrosian Rite is still very impressive, especially the “Rite of the Cloud” on the Feast of the Holy Cross on September 14th, when a baroque gondola is elevated so that the clergy riding on it can collect one of the largest surviving fragments of the True Cross from its reliquary.


Needless to say, since the reliquary is only accessible by this gondola unless one were to erect scaffolding or bring in a massive ladder, which someone would surely notice, it is quite secure.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Usually they call it the Divine Liturgy. The word Mass is actually derived from the dismissal at the end of a Traditional Latin Mass, “Ite, missa est.” Which is actually a classic example of one of the unique attributes of the Roman Rite, which is its brevity; the Eastern liturgies instead use equally beautiful but extremely florid language, so the equivalent dismissal in the Byzantine Rite takes about two minutes to say, rather than a few seconds.

These variations between liturgical rites are part of the unique charm of each rite and help make each rite what it is.



The Novus Ordo mass can be OK, if it is celebrated reverently with traditional music, but if you can find a Traditional Latin Mass, those are truly exquisite and on a par with Byzantine, Syriac and Coptic liturgies.

There are also some liturgies which frustratingly aren’t accessible in North America, but you can watch them on YouTube. For example, the Ambrosian Rite and Mozarabic Rite, which are derived from the ancient Gallican Rite, which was replaced in France by the order of Charlemagne. However, the Mozarabic Rite remained in use in Muslim-occupied Spain, although sadly it dwindled down to just five parishes in Toledo in the 19th century, and they also eventually went over to the Roman Rite, but thankfully it is preserved in a dedicated chapel in the cathedral of Toledo, and is also occasionally celebrated in a nearby monastery. Pope John Paul II also celebrated it in 1995. The Ambrosian Rite has been somewhat more fortunate, in that it is still used by several million people, being the traditional liturgy of Milan. It was updated post Vatican II, but the ancient version is still celebrated in one dedicated church in Milan, and even with the 1960s modifications, the Ambrosian Rite is still very impressive, especially the “Rite of the Cloud” on the Feast of the Holy Cross on September 14th, when a baroque gondola is elevated so that the clergy riding on it can collect one of the largest surviving fragments of the True Cross from its reliquary.


Needless to say, since the reliquary is only accessible by this gondola unless one were to erect scaffolding or bring in a massive ladder, which someone would surely notice, it is quite secure.

As awesome as that is, I wonder what first century church assemblies were like in comparison.
 
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The Liturgist

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As awesome as that is, I wonder what first century church assemblies were like in comparison.

Actually, we know they were very similiar because we have in a 1st century book of church order, the Didache, a basic outline of a Sunday service.

Things get more exciting than that, however: the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which is used on rare occasions, and the Coptic Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, which is frequently used in Lent, are based on a liturgical text commonly called the Anaphora of St. Mark, which is attested to in the second century Strasbourg Papyrus and the fourth century Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, which is the oldest complete liturgical service book.

And another liturgy that dates to at least the second century, the Liturgy of Saints Addai and Mari, is the principle liturgy in the East Syriac Rite, used by the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church, all three of which are primarily located in Iraq, with the Church of the East mainly in the Nineveh Plains, and the Chaldean church centered around Baghdad, and in Malankara, India, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church*.

The Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church meanwhile uses a liturgy of third century attestation, the Anaphora of the Apostles, which is the same liturgy which appears in the Apostolic Tradition of the third century pope St. Hippolytus. This liturgy does not follow the Roman style, however, but rather the Antiochene form, which makes sense, because when Ethiopia converted to Christianity in the fourth century, the locals were taught liturgics and worship services by a group of Syrian missionaries, who were of course familiar with the liturgical style of Antioch (this is why the Ethiopian liturgy is closer to the Byzantine and West Syriac Rite in structure than the Alexandrian Rite).

The second and third century attestation of these two liturgies confounded some scholars who were of the opinion that the early church always improvised liturgies based on a set of conventions until the fourth century, when for some reason they decided to start writing them down (the reason usually given being the rapid growth of the church under Constantine, however, that ignores the fact that the Christian Church was flourishing in the open in India, Mesopotamia, Persia and Eastern Syria long before the Roman Empire converted, and before Christianity was legalized in Rome, it was first legalized in the city state of Edessa, and then in Armenia. And it also ignores the fact that when the Romans would arrest church leaders, they would often offer to spare them if they revealed the location of the church books, of which there were usually several. And there is no evidence to suggest that the Euchologion of St. Serapion was a new thing when it was composed, on the contrary, the content in the 3rd century Apostolic Traditions, the 4th century Apostolic Constitutions, and the 1st century Didache and Didascalia is of the same nature.

I strongly believe, based on the striking resemblance of both the liturgies of St. Mark and Saints Addai and Mari to a type of Jewish blessing known as a Berakhot, that these two liturgies date from the first century, as they correspond with the Didache and with contemporary descriptions of first and early second century Christian worship (for example, that of St. Justin Martyr).

We also know that from time immemorial, Christian priests have worn chasubles in honor of St. Paul, who requested one be sent to him during his captivity in Rome, in 2 Timothy 3:14 (specifically, he asked for a Phelonion, which is the Greek word for a chasuble), which was the last epistle he wrote before his martyrdom under Nero.

Now, interestingly, since you have been to Roman Catholic masses, there is a good chance you experienced the Anaphora of the Apostles, or rather a modified minimalist version of it, since it forms the basis of Eucharistic Prayer no. 2 in the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969. A slightly more faithful version of it is Eucharistic Prayer B in the 1979 Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer.


*This is one of several churches serving the ancient community of Christians in India, who were converted by St. Thomas the Apostle, who received the crown of martyrdom when an enraged Hindu rajah impaled him with a javelin in 53 AD; St. Thomas was able to evangelize in India because there was an Aramaic speaking Jewish community in Kerala since the second century BC, a few members of which still live there, and their beautiful synagogue is still intact - although so many of their people have moved to Israel they seldom have a minyan. Some of the Nasranis, or St. Thomas Christians, are of purely Jewish descent, survivors of a shipwreck who marry amongst themselves, whereas others are descended from Jews and Hindu converts. Christianity has been in India for about 1500 years longer than the Sikh religion, and there are more Christians in India than Sikhs and Jains combined. Unfortunately the BJP government has been on occasion hostile to Christian interests, and in New Delhi a few years back an elderly nun was raped by some Hindu nationalists, and in general there is a disturbing increase in Hindu attacks on Indian Christians.
 
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Saint Steven

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We also know that from time immemorial, Christian priests have worn chasubles in honor of St. Paul, who requested one be sent to him during his captivity in Rome, in 2 Timothy 3:14 (specifically, he asked for a Phelonion, which is the Greek word for a chasuble), which was the last epistle he wrote before his martyrdom under Nero.
I'm guessing you meant this one. (see below)
Do we have any more to go on than "cloak"?
cc: @MMXX

2 Timothy 4:13 NIV
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.
 
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JohnRemnant

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The very idea of a denomination itself, was a foreign idea to the Apostles
There is only The Narrow way. The one Christ paved. He being the head of all believers.


God would forewarn against discord among brothers.
Denominationalisms and the doctrines that form them, certainly has not brought Christians together.
There is no one singular church building or organization. But all should be part of the same Vine. The Righteous Branch.

Proverbs 6:16-20
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

And Paul would repeat this by saying the very idea of dividing along doctrinal lines was antithesis to The Lord Christ.
I Corinthians 1: kjv
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;
but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Matthew 18:8
King James Version

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.


And we see hear and read, Christs' address to the churches in Revelation.
You could take time to read that on your own.

John 15:2-6
King James Version
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.




 
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The Liturgist

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I'm guessing you meant this one. (see below)
Do we have any more to go on than "cloak"?
cc: @MMXX

2 Timothy 4:13 NIV
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.

We sure do:

5341 [e]
phailonēn
φαιλόνην*
cloak
N-AMS

Phailonen is the Koine Greek word for Phelonion (the Byzantine Greek equivalent) or Chasuble. Now of course, Phelonions are cloaks, but the word refers to a specific cut of cloak which most closely resembles the Greek Phelonion, the Syriac Phayno (Phayno is a word meaning Phelonion) and the Gothic Chasuble.

However, while the cut of St. Paul’s Phelonion is the basis for the later vestments (with the exception of the Roman Chasuble, sometimes called the “Fiddleback”, which originated in the Renaissance and is a distinctive design only really usable as a vestment), to be clear, St. Paul’s Phelonion itself was probably not a liturgical vestment, although it could have been. The most likely explanation however is that the style of cloak (the Phelonion) that St. Paul wore was developed into a vestment by the early church in honor of his martyrdom, and once implemented as a vestment, the quality of the fabric and decorations, et cetera, were upgraded considerably.

Around the year 1100 or so the most common design in the Eastern Orthodox churches for episcopal vestments consisted of a white phelonion covered with Greek crosses which were black or some other color, and this is commonly seen on icons of early church fathers. Later, Eastern Orthodox bishops switched from wearing the Phelonion to the Sakkos, a sleeved garment over which is worn the Omophorion, or Great Stole, and the mitres were redesigned based on the crowns worn by the Byzantine Emperor and nobility (this same design is also worn by Armenian priests and deacons; Armenian bishops wear a mitre similiar in shape to the classic Western mitre one sees on Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran bishops, albeit taller and with an icon on it).

The original mitres worn at the Temple in Jerusalem are believed to have been turbans, and the mitres worn during the liturgy by Coptic Orthodox bishops are likely the closest equivalent.

During the iconoclast period, by the way, which dominated the Byzantine Empire from the early years of the eighth century until the Triumph of Orthodoxy in 843, when a sympathetic Empress Irene finally enforced the decrees of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, deacons, priests and bishops were persecuted for wearing of chasubles, stoles, mitres and other vestments, and iconoclast priests and bishops made a point of wearing expensive civilian attire, basically the 8th century equivalent of an expensive finely-tailored business suit.

The iconoclast movement was itself launched in response to the military successes of the Islamic Ummayid Caliphate, which in a remarkably short period of time conquered an enormous amount of Byzantine territory including Egypt and soon thereafter, the Holy Land. It was assumed that the extreme iconoclasm of the Islamic regime was somehow pleasing to God and represented the correct interpretation of the second commandment, and that Byzantine armies would regain their former prowess if the Byzantine Empire applied a similar iconoclasm to its religious observances.

This oppressive decision obviously did not make any difference at all on the battlefield, and over the next several centuries, the Byzantine Empire was pushed back to Syria, and then Asia Minor, with the two Armenian Kingdoms (Armenia proper, and the Kingdom of Cilicia) acting as buffer states, and then when these fell, and in the aftermath of the Byzantine Empire’s annexation by Venice during the absurd “Fourth Crusade,” it became weak enough so that the only hope for preserving independence rested in a military alliance with Western Europe, negotiated at the Council of Florence in 1433, but the price that was set for this alliance, namely subordination of the Greek church to the Roman Catholic Church, was one the people of the Empire, led by the great defender of Orthodoxy, St. Mark of Epehesus, who alone among the bishops opposed the alliance in the interests of preserving the Orthodox faith, would not accept.

Ergo, the proposal was scuppered, and the Turks conquered Constantinople in 1453. The people of the Byzantine Empire bravely chose to endure Turkocratia, the savage rule of the despotic and genocidal Ottoman Empire in order to preserve their religion, and they were rewarded for it, because just over 350 years later, the Greek Revolution set off the process by which Southeastern Europe (an area consisting of Greece, Albania, the Balkans, Bulgaria and Romania, which the Turks defined as the province of Roumelia) and the Orthodox Christians living therein were freed from Ottoman rule.

So there’s a combined history of Eucharistic vestments, Iconoclasm, the rise of the Ottoman Empire, and the eventual liberation of Europe from Turkocratia, for your viewing pleasure.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Someday I'll attend a mass (if that's what they call it) at a big Eastern Orthodox church.

Come and see! It is called "The Divine Liturgy".
 
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Saint Steven

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However, while the cut of St. Paul’s Phelonion is the basis for the later vestments (with the exception of the Roman Chasuble, sometimes called the “Fiddleback”, which originated in the Renaissance and is a distinctive design only really usable as a vestment), to be clear, St. Paul’s Phelonion itself was probably not a liturgical vestment, although it could have been. The most likely explanation however is that the style of cloak (the Phelonion) that St. Paul wore was developed into a vestment by the early church in honor of his martyrdom, and once implemented as a vestment, the quality of the fabric and decorations, et cetera, were upgraded considerably.
Thanks for your informative post. Wow.

It reminded me of the preacher jackets today that are popular with Protestant preachers.

Perhaps the preachers in Paul's day wanted to look like him, adding credibility to themselves. Similar to the hair coats that prophets wore in the OT.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thanks for your informative post. Wow.

You are very kind. I try very hard to provide thorough and accurate information and I do appreciate it when people benefit from it.

It reminded me of the preacher jackets today that are popular with Protestant preachers.

Perhaps the preachers in Paul's day wanted to look like him, adding credibility to themselves. Similar to the hair coats that prophets wore in the OT.

I think the hair coats were more like sackcloth, a penitential garb.
 
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KingdomLeast

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Charles Taze Russell and Ellen White. The christadelphians are very similar to SDA and JW.
Not quite, It's true Russell founded the Watch Tower Society, but he was not the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses. There was a split in the movement after his death in 1916. 15 years later in 1931, the Society under Rutherford founded the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Russell and White had some similiar ideas, but even the SDA deviated from Whites views after her death. But they ARE closer to Whites interpretation, than the JW's are to Russell's.

Christadelphians, have some similar beliefs, but they deny that Jesus preexisted.
 
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KingdomLeast

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He was influenced by Ellen White and attended the meetings she held to the best of my recollection. A lot of groups seemed to come up during the 1800s.
Not true, Russell was never part of the SDA church, he did associate with the Advent Christian Church which was along with the SDA an offshoot of the Miller movement.
 
BobRyan
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Yes that is correct. He was never a member of the church - but rumor has it that he attended one meeting at the church.
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BobRyan

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Although some incorrect statements were made about some groups -- I do appreciate KingdomLeast's efforts to address some misstatements.

As I have said before - one would "hope" that everyone thinks the church they currently attend is the closest to Bible affirmed Christian doctrine - and if they know of a better one - to go to that one rather than stay with some group they know to be in error.

I certainly believe that after all the back and forth I have seen on a number of topics at CF and exchanges with a number of people here on the topic of Adventist doctrine - that this is the best one I have found.
 
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