Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

[GraceInHim]

The one who actually changed it was Constantine

 

[Cliff2]

Hi Cliff2, In Matthew 28 it should read, In the end of the sabbath's as it began to dawn toward the first of the sabbath's. God made all things new on Sunday.

Do you have any support from Scripture to show that this is right.

This take is a new one on me.

I am just cathing up with what was posted as for most of the day I have not been near a computer.

 

[Cliff2]

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

Dan 7:26 And a judgment shall sit, that his power may be taken away, and be broken in pieces, and perish even to the end.




But this contradicts Scripture

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Now since we know that SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CONTRADICT then sorry then Daniel does not apply in this instance to the power given unto Peter to BIND AND LOOSE... therefore your argument is exegetically incorrect and invalidated by Scripture itself

That is unless you would like to say now that the LORD himself is a liar?</FONT></FONT></FONT>
http://www.christianforums.com/show...33&postcount=25 (Debi)

We need to look again at the first two verses mentioned here. Dan 7:25,26 and see what they are actually saying.

Who is the "He"?

That "He" shall crush the saints and think, notice it says to think to do many things.

Now these verses have nothing I believe to do with Peter.

If we were to look at history we would see this to be no other than Rome. Pagan Rome bagan a time of great persecution. The time period here is from 538 - 1798.

If you look in a book called "The Popes" by Michael Walsh published in about 1980 or there abouts. It is now out of print. By the way he was a Jesuit priest and the book has the Impramata of the Pope inside the front cover.

He says that in 1798 that the Pope was taken captive and died in exile.

In 538 Papal Rome receieved the power to rule. This time period is 1260 years long and during that time history show just how many were persecuted by her armies. The inquistion, the crusades and much more.

This is not an attack on the RCC but just showing how history has revealed to us today that prophecy is correct. Daniel was right about this time and he wrote about it over 2,000 before it happened.

I have a copy of what Walsh says about the Pope being taken captive and can send it to anyone if they give me their email address by sending me a PM.

This is why Daniel has nothing to do with the verses that has been associated with Peter.

 

[Cliff2]

Dan 7:26 And a judgment shall sit, that his power may be taken away, and be broken in pieces, and perish even to the end. (Debi)


Lets look at this verse a bit closer.

This still has not taken place yet. It will happen, the judgement is in progress and when the kingdom will be crushed in pieces, it will happen when Jesus comes back again.

Look at Daniel chapter 2 again and see the what the meaning of the vision is about.

They are linked together.

 

[dcyates]

During the past year many threads have been opened up concerning the Sabbath.

There are a few points that we could probably look at in some detail.

Such as these.

Was the Sabbath kept before the Law was given to the Children of Israel?

Is the Sabbath really Jewish and there for not binding on Christians today?

If there are other points that need to be brought up then by all means do that.

Debi has kindly consented to help out in this discussion by transfering information from other threads as she sees fit to do so.

Thanking you in advance for your help.

An excellent resource for you (or anyone) to look at concerning this is: From Sabbath to Lord's Day: A Biblical, Historical, and Theological Investigation, edited by D.A. Carson (Zondervan, 1982). It would probably be quite difficult to locate for purchase, but I'm sure you would be able to find it in any good theological library.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Ummm...LOL! I didn't even know this thread existed and now it's three pages long! Then I find out I'm supposed to be participating in it yet no one told me!

You're all GROUNDED! (Said in my best "motherly" tone).

Now that I know it's here (through no help of my friends Debi and Cliff I might add...lol), I will definitely participate. However, it's time for me to hop in the shower so I will have to comment later.

You two are just like my children. LOL

 

[Isaiah 53]

I guess my question for those who insist the Sabbath must be kept on Saturday, because it is written in the law, do you keep the entire Sabbath law such as:


29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." (Exodus 16:29)

10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. (Exodus 20:10)

10 "For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove. (Exodus 23:10-11)

14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death (Exodus 31:14-15)


3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." (Exodus 35:3)

9 " 'On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil. This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering. (Numbers 28:9-10)


Since you insist upon living under the old covenant, you MUST follow the Old Covenant laws...completely.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[TrustAndObey]

Isaiah53...excellent questions! I just wish I had more time to answer them all for you in detail.

First of all you have to realize that in the Bible we have a set of what is called "The Law of Moses"...i.e. Mosaic Law, ceremonial law, the BOOK of the law, ordinances. Christ told us that all the law concerning HIM specifically in the law of Moses must be fulfilled. Galatians 3:19 tells us those laws were added because of transgression (breaking God's Ten Commandments) and that they would end when the Seed (Christ) came!

The seven YEAR Sabbath was a rest for the LAND, not for people. I'm not a farmer so it doesn't apply to me. Even if I were a farmer, it was Mosaic law.

There were sabbaths beside (different from) the Sabbath of the Lord thy God (Lev. 23:37 & 38). In those sabbaths there were many ceremonial laws, such as sacrifices. Those sabbaths are the ones discussed in Colossians 2:14-17. Mosaic law, ordinances. Notice it says "handwriting of ordinances". Also notice in Daniel 7 we are promised that Christ will be the end of sacrifices and oblations.

When you go to confession, as a Catholic, you confess your sins against the moral law of God (Ten Commandments), correct? Have you had impure thoughts (lusted)? Have you lied? etc Breaking those laws is still sin. The Catholic Catechism still has "remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". Nowhere in the entire Bible is Sunday referred to as Sabbath. Nowhere.

So the change from Saturday to Sunday happened after the Bible was written.

Our goal in this thread, I'm assuming, is to find out WHEN it changed, why it changed, and WHO changed it...since it obviously wasn't God or Christ.

I really do have to get going, but Isaiah, I want you to consider that it's still a law (it's even in your catechism) and my prayer is that you will at least listen in here and participate with an open mind instead of an accusatory nature.

The Pharisees accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath by healing. What did He tell them back? It is LAWFUL to do well on the Sabbath day.

Let's all try to keep the Pharisee mentality out of this thread as much as possible, please?

I gotta get to work!

God bless and have a MARVELOUS day!
~Lainie

 

[Isaiah 53]

First of all you have to realize that in the Bible we have a set of what is called "The Law of Moses"...i.e. Mosaic Law, ceremonial law, the BOOK of the law, ordinances. Christ told us that all the law concerning HIM specifically in the law of Moses must be fulfilled. Galatians 3:19 tells us those laws were added because of transgression (breaking God's Ten Commandments) and that they would end when the Seed (Christ) came!

Oh, I see so those things are a part of the old covenant, the one done away with the coming of Chirst and the New and Everlasting Covenant...

16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. (Exodus 31:16)

When you go to confession, as a Catholic, you confess your sins against the moral law of God (Ten Commandments), correct? Have you had impure thoughts (lusted)? Have you lied? etc Breaking those laws is still sin. The Catholic Catechism still has "remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". Nowhere in the entire Bible is Sunday referred to as Sabbath. Nowhere.

This is what the Catechism says about the Sabbath...

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:


Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death. 2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).


2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ. 2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

So the change from Saturday to Sunday happened after the Bible was written.

Really? I see some Scriptural evidence to the contrary...

7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. (Acts 20:7)

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ (Col 2:16-17)

Not to mention the early Church Fathers....

On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 14 (A.D. 90).


"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master." Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

"The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest--abstraction from ills--preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord's Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth--a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).

"In fine, let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of the threat of death, teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered "friends of God." For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised--yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath--God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God." Tertullian, An answer to the Jews, 2 (A.D. 203).

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation: because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven." Teaching of the Apostles, 2 (A.D. 225). "Hence it is not possible that the rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh of our God; on the contrary, it is our Saviour who, after the pattern of His own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of His death, and hence also of His resurrection." Origen, Commentary on John, 2:27 (A.D. 229).

Let's all try to keep the Pharisee mentality out of this thread as much as possible, please?

Please keep insults to a minimum. I believe that is a little below what I have seen from you in the past. No one having a "Pharisee mentality", my questions were valid and asked in true desire for understanding.

Christ's Church, from the beginning, began to gather on the Lord's day and not upon the Sabbath day.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[Oblio]

The one who actually changed it was Constantine

Incorrect, and a commonly held myth. The Apostolic Fathers record that it was Christ and His Apostles that taught the principle of Sunday worship. Christians were worshipping on Sunday for 300 years before St. Constantine. Further, St. Constantine did not establish any Christion canons or traditions but rather called the first Ecumenical Council where the Church decided issues.

 

[Oblio]

From ca 120 AD

CHAP. LXVII.--WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,(1) all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,(2) and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,(3) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

 

[Isaiah 53]

The one who actually changed it was Constantine

This is wrong...see post #29

PAX CHRISTI

 

[Isaiah 53]

This is wrong...see post #29

PAX CHRISTI

...and #31...nice post Oblio.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[TrustAndObey]

Isaiah, here's a question for you. Was Mary, the mother of Christ, a Christian? I know she was born of Jewish bloodline, but did she accept Christ as the Messiah?

Most Catholics will say she was the very FIRST Christian.

Mary became a Christian, and she kept the Sabbath commandment after Christ was nailed to the cross. (Luke 23:56) Obviously the sabbath nailed to the cross was NOT the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord thy God!

Jesus made a prophecy which included the Sabbath in it...Matthew 24:20. Does it make sense that He would do that if the Sabbath was going to be nailed to the cross? The prophecy was about either the fall of Jerusalem 40+ years after Christ left this earth or about the second coming, I've heard it argued both ways. Either way...an event that was to happen in the future from when He made the prophecy, and He KNEW it would be after He was nailed to the cross.

Isaiah 66:23 tells us we will all come before God from one Sabbath to another. So do you think it was replaced by Sunday for now, but will be reinstated on the new earth? (Sincere question, I'm not being sarcastic).

Remember the SABBATH day and keep it holy. Nowhere in the entire Bible is Sunday referred to as Sabbath. You admit that at least right? Jesus, none of the disciples, Paul, etc...none of them said "Sunday is the new Sabbath". Can we agree on that and move on from there?

The apostles broke bread on Sunday yes. But guess what? Acts 2:46 tells us they broke bread EVERY day. Sunday wasn't specifically set aside to break bread on. It wasn't special at all.

And I'm glad you brought up the "Lord's Day". What day does the BIBLE tell us that is? (I'll save you some trouble here...it doesn't say a DAY). John was given visions on the Lord's Day...he had visions of the second coming of Christ and what that day would be like. Day of the Lord/Lord's Day...same thing. The second coming.

Since the BIBLE doesn't say Sunday is the Lord's Day...where did that come from?

I'll wait for your responses before I ask more questions.

God bless,
~Lainie

 

[TrustAndObey]

Christ told us to celebrate His resurrection in baptism.

And if every Sunday is a celebration of the resurrection, what is your Easter for again? Is Sunday like a mini-Easter every week or what?

Seriously, Christ never told us to celebrate His resurrection every Sunday. Paul didn't, he kept the Sabbath and even founded a Sabbath keeping church.

I'm sorry, but some of the excuses for breaking this BLESSING commandment are just a little...well, unscriptural.

 

[Oblio]

Seriously, Christ never told us to celebrate His resurrection every Sunday.

I posted evidence to the contrary where He did tell His disciples that very thing.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Saturday.

The fulfillment of the Sabbath was Great and Holy Saturday when Christ rested from His work in defeating death by death. It is no longer an obligation for anyone. Jew or Gentile.


.

What does the Sabbath have to do with defeating death? It's God's holy day, sanctified at creation before sin and death even entered into the world.

 

[Oblio]

What does the Sabbath have to do with defeating death?

Do you not believe that Christ descended into Hades to free the captives and defeat satan and death ?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hades is the grave. Scripture tells us that Christ was DEAD for three days and did not even ascend to the Father during that time.

He had to be dead to defeat death.

 

[lonnienord]

Saturday.

The fulfillment of the Sabbath was Great and Holy Saturday when Christ rested from His work in defeating death by death. It is no longer an obligation for anyone. Jew or Gentile.


.

??? how do you come to that conclusion????????