Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

[TrustAndObey]

Lonnienord, thank you for joining us brother!

 

[oldsage]

oldsage - I used to types of Bible verses - cuz sometimes we do not get the full writings - KJV verse starts on a different number

Ok, no problem, I use several versions also to get a point out

 

[oldsage]

The one who actually changed it was Constantine

Well, Constantine didn't really change it, but adopted it, the change started about 135 A.D. and grew more and more with the persecutions of the Jews, and Christians trying to be distinct from Judaism so not to be persecuted along with the Jews.

 

[lonnienord]

I am not going to stay with this thread. I will post my understanding once. The sabbath commandment is one of the 10 commandments that GOD spoke on the Mountain. It is the most specific commandment. It is as important that we keep the 7th day Sabbath as it is that we not kill. We know that Saturday is the Sabbath because the Jews have always kept it holy. There has always been Jews and they have perserved the torah along with the Sabbath on Saturday.

i believe that the ten commandments are binding on all of GOD's childern because HE spoke them and HE wrote them on stone with HIS own finger.

JESUS never changed the sabbath. HE gave the keys to the church but does that mean the church has the right to change HIS spoken word??? (i am a Catholic and i fulfill the Sunday obligation which as far as i can tell can be done by attending mass on Saturday (Sabbath) evening

 

[oldsage]

An excellent resource for you (or anyone) to look at concerning this is: From Sabbath to Lord's Day: A Biblical, Historical, and Theological Investigation, edited by D.A. Carson (Zondervan, 1982). It would probably be quite difficult to locate for purchase, but I'm sure you would be able to find it in any good theological library.

Another wonderful resource is [font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1][font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1] From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity by Dr. Samuel [/size][/font][/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1]Bacchiocchi (Biblical Perspectives, March 30,2000) ISBN: [/size][/font]1930987005

You can get it directly from the Biblical Perspectives website. It was initially published by the Pontifical Gregorian University Press in Rome with the Catholic imprimatur.

Great reading.
Chris

 

[Isaiah 53]

Isaiah, here's a question for you. Was Mary, the mother of Christ, a Christian? I know she was born of Jewish bloodline, but did she accept Christ as the Messiah?

Most Catholics will say she was the very FIRST Christian.

Mary became a Christian, and she kept the Sabbath commandment after Christ was nailed to the cross. (Luke 23:56) Obviously the sabbath nailed to the cross was NOT the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord thy God!

55The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment. (Luke 23:55-56)

The Blessed Virgin observed the Sabbath on Saturday, yes. But did she keep the Sabbath AFTER the Resurrection? In this passage the Lord was still in the tomb and had not yet resurrected--on Sunday. The Lord's day!

Jesus made a prophecy which included the Sabbath in it...Matthew 24:20. Does it make sense that He would do that if the Sabbath was going to be nailed to the cross? The prophecy was about either the fall of Jerusalem 40+ years after Christ left this earth or about the second coming, I've heard it argued both ways. Either way...an event that was to happen in the future from when He made the prophecy, and He KNEW it would be after He was nailed to the cross.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. (Matt 24:15-24)

Okay, my question here is to whom is Christ speaking?

Isaiah 66:23 tells us we will all come before God from one Sabbath to another. So do you think it was replaced by Sunday for now, but will be reinstated on the new earth? (Sincere question, I'm not being sarcastic).

"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:22-24)

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't God using this as a declaration of time? Moon to moon--week to week?

Remember the SABBATH day and keep it holy. Nowhere in the entire Bible is Sunday referred to as Sabbath. You admit that at least right? Jesus, none of the disciples, Paul, etc...none of them said "Sunday is the new Sabbath". Can we agree on that and move on from there?

You are correct.

The apostles broke bread on Sunday yes. But guess what? Acts 2:46 tells us they broke bread EVERY day. Sunday wasn't specifically set aside to break bread on. It wasn't special at all.

7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. (Acts 20:7)

Then why was Sunday specifically mentioned?

And I'm glad you brought up the "Lord's Day". What day does the BIBLE tell us that is? (I'll save you some trouble here...it doesn't say a DAY). John was given visions on the Lord's Day...he had visions of the second coming of Christ and what that day would be like. Day of the Lord/Lord's Day...same thing. The second coming.

Since the BIBLE doesn't say Sunday is the Lord's Day...where did that come from?

I'll wait for your responses before I ask more questions.

God bless,
~Lainie

I have provided Biblical support but, as Catholic, you are well aware I do not derive all my theological thoughts from the Bible alone. Why have you not addressed the writings of the Early Church fathers? Are not the actions of the early Church valid?

On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 14 (A.D. 90).


"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master." Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110). "The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest--abstraction from ills--preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord's Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth--a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).

Or should we follow the beliefs of a church founded in 1863? The Catholic Church as been observing the Lord's Day, on Sunday, since the beginning...

PAX CHRISTI

 

[Isaiah 53]

JESUS never changed the sabbath. HE gave the keys to the church but does that mean the church has the right to change HIS spoken word??? (i am a Catholic and i fulfill the Sunday obligation which as far as i can tell can be done by attending mass on Saturday (Sabbath) evening

Technically the Jewish day was from sun up to sun down, that is the reason the Sunday obligation is satisified by going to Mass on what we consider Saturday.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[TrustAndObey]

Okay, my question here is to whom is Christ speaking?

His followers/believers....Christians.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't God using this as a declaration of time? Moon to moon--week to week?

Why call it Sabbath though? It's on the new earth. Sabbath in the Bible is always on the seventh day...what we now call Saturday. Why not just say from week to week?

SABBATH is specifically mentioned. ALL flesh will come before Him to worship Him.

 

[Oblio]

??? how do you come to that conclusion????????

IIRC, it is also the belief of the RCC which you claim membership in.

 

[PaleHorse]

Technically the Jewish day was from sun up to sun down, that is the reason the Sunday obligation is satisified by going to Mass on what we consider Saturday.

PAX CHRISTI

Actually, the Jewish reckoning of days was from sunset to sunset. This can be seen most clearly in Genesis 1.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Then why was Sunday specifically mentioned?

The reason Sunday was specifically mentioned there is because that was the day before Paul was leaving for good and the story of him bringing a young man back to life was very important. It wasn't to say that Sunday was special...not at all....in fact, the speech started on Sabbath...it lasted until midnight so it ran into Sunday. The Jewish days began at sundown.

Paul traveled the next day and didn't rest. No mention of him making that Sunday holy at all.

 

[PaleHorse]

...The Blessed Virgin observed the Sabbath on Saturday, yes. But did she keep the Sabbath AFTER the Resurrection? In this passage the Lord was still in the tomb and had not yet resurrected--on Sunday. The Lord's day!...

But if the argument is that the Sabbath was "nailed to the cross" then this makes no sense for the nailing took place on a Friday, not Sunday, and that is the question. No one disputes that the Christ rose from the sepluchre on a Sunday - but that isn't the argument being stated.

Simply said, if Sabbath was nailed to the cross (which happened on Friday) then there is no reason in the world that Mary would have observed it on the following Saturday - for it would be gone already.

 

[Oblio]

Hades is the grave. Scripture tells us that Christ was DEAD for three days and did not even ascend to the Father during that time.

He had to be dead to defeat death.

And He Rested in the Tomb on Great and Holy Saturday, after His work freeing the captives and bringing forth the new Creation ! That Saturday is the new Sabbath of which the old in Genesis was a forshadow.

 

[PaleHorse]

And He Rested in the Tomb on Great and Holy Saturday, after His work freeing the captives and bringing forth the new Creation ! That Saturday is the new Sabbath of which the old in Genesis was a forshadow.

Curious, what does the commandment to not steal foreshadow?

 

[Oblio]

Paul traveled the next day and didn't rest. No mention of him making that Sunday holy at all.

Of course not. It wasn't St. Paul who made Sunday, the Lord's day a Holy Feast day , it was Christ that did so by His Resurrection.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Isaiah, I think for now we should just keep our discussion Sola Scriptura. You can reference the early church fathers, but it really doesn't help. First of all because this is a discussion about WHO changed the Sabbath day to Sunday....and really you're just cementing the fact that it was not God.

The Word of God never calls Sunday the "Lord's Day". That's the point I'm trying to make and I think you agree with me on that.

And PaleHorse is right, if the Sabbath were nailed to the cross then Mary wouldn't have kept it the next day. The resurrection really has nothing to do with her keeping the Sabbath the day AFTER Christ was nailed to the cross, right?

 

[Oblio]

Curious, what does the commandment to not steal foreshadow?

Non-sequitar

The OT Sabbath is not a commandment.

 

[PaleHorse]

Non-sequitar

The OT Sabbath is not a commandment.

It is the fourth commandment. So it is not non-sequitar.

 

[Oblio]

Well, Constantine didn't really change it, but adopted it, the change started about 135 A.D. and grew more and more with the persecutions of the Jews, and Christians trying to be distinct from Judaism so not to be persecuted along with the Jews.

The testimony of those taught by the Apostles themselves contradict your assertion. Either you are wrong, the early Christians were lying, or the documents were forgeries.