Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

[Cliff2]

During the past year many threads have been opened up concerning the Sabbath.

There are a few points that we could probably look at in some detail.

Such as these.

Was the Sabbath kept before the Law was given to the Children of Israel?

Is the Sabbath really Jewish and there for not binding on Christians today?

If there are other points that need to be brought up then by all means do that.

Debi has kindly consented to help out in this discussion by transfering information from other threads as she sees fit to do so.

Thanking you in advance for your help.

 

[Oblio]

Saturday.

The fulfillment of the Sabbath was Great and Holy Saturday when Christ rested from His work in defeating death by death. It is no longer an obligation for anyone. Jew or Gentile.


.

 

[Debi1967]

Ok first I am going to bring our discussion from PM then I will transfer some from the thread.... in question .... T&O can help me considering I had the conversation with her if she likes and has my permission to quote my posts in succession with hers ... to bring this up to speed so that we do not have to go over ground again .....

Debi

 

[Cliff2]

Saturday.

The fulfillment of the Sabbath was Great and Holy Saturday when Christ rested from His work in defeating death by death. It is no longer an obligation for anyone. Jew or Gentile.


.

I do believe you have the right day of the week.

Now what we need to keep in mind that a statement such as this needs some Biblical support.

When it comes to Saturday being the Sabbath it can be shown from Ex. 20:8-11 and earlier in Gen. 2:1-3

Just wondering what Bibles verse you would use to show that the Sabbath is

"no longer an obligation for anyone. Jew or Gentile"

 

[Debi1967]

Cliff wrote to Deb earlier today

Who do you think changed the Sabbath?

I agree with what you have said. The Bible does not say Peter changed the Sabbath.

In fact upon reading of God's Word I do not see anywhere that the Sabbath has been changed at all.

without want to get into a big arguement about your post could you explain what you mean by it.

if you look at what i posted you will see that i did read what he said.

i will admit i have not read every post written in the thread but just look at how long it is and you will see why.

who do you think changed the sabbath?

the bible does not say peter changed the sabbath.

in fact no where in the bible does it say the sabbath has been changed.

i respectfully ask you the question have you ever read in the bible where it says the sabbath has been changed?

if you have i would like to see the verse.

blessings

cliff

And Deb replied

The same questions were asked in response by me of other things like where does it say specifically in the BIBLE that after GOD (JESUS) gave the Keys to Bind and Loose to Peter which is Biblical that HE could not change it? Why then did the Lord say Do this in remembrance of Me? Who did the Isrealites answer directly to as opposed to who are we as Christians going to answer to? And the fact is nowhere in the BIBLE does it say specifically that Saturday is the Sabbath that was a tradition of the Isrealites brought about by the Calendar and brought about because of God saying that he worked for six days and rested on the seventh.... But nowhere in the Bible does it say that this was anymore than an example to them of how the Sabbath should be observed.... Again I brought this out in Scripture. I also brought out in Scripture that the Sabbath was a specific Covenant between God and the Jews ONLY. Since now we are neither Jew nor Gentile under the New Covenant brought about by Christ then our Sabbath is the observance of this New Covenant with Him ..... The Christian Covenant .... Unlike the Jews where the Father was their judge, our judge is Christ because the Father so said this and also said that we owe our allegience not only to the Father but also to Christ ..... because now the only way to the Father is through the Mediator which is Christ to whom we answer to. Another interesting point that I brought up was this, Christ repeated EVERY OTHER Commandment except that of the Sabbath and then right before His Death He told the Disciples Keep doing this in Commemoration/Rememberance of ME..... Yet He did not tell them when to do it did He? He did not say do it on Fridays or Saturdays ...... He actually gave them no other specific instruction except to keep doing it in remembrance of HIM .... Just like with Moses He gave no real specific instruction except that God told Moses He worked for six days and then rested on the seventh and then Moses himself related this to the calendar. but in truth God could have started working on the earth in the middle of the week calendar wise and then ended on another day so therefore ..... The Jewish Calendar itself was inaccurate for years until it was refined .... with some years have as little as 357 days to some years having as many as 384.....This would make things a little hard to determine at times when is when. That would mean that Nissan 14 would fall at different times on different years depending on how many days that they had in that year... The funny thing is this that of the many months that changed in the number of days it had Nissan and the following month Iyar consistantly always had the same number of days Nissan having 30 and Iyar having 29.... They still do til this day. So when you add together the three days that Christ was in the Tomb then rose then add another full 40 days to this to where he spent them among the apostles before His ascencion this brings you to him Rising to Heaven on a Sunday Iyar 28th because Nissan 14th was a Friday.... We celebrate the Risen Lord .... His Ascending into Heaven.... So, you see we celebrate His Ascending into Heaven, the completion of all He came to do on earth. He came to not only shed His blood for our sins, but as Paul said also Rise because if not then we would not have the Hope to also Rise with Him.

Another point to you Cliff is that Paul warned several times that those that chose to live by the Old Covenant Laws would also be judged according to them. He said that Circumcision was good but if one was not going to fully adhere to all of it then it would be as though they were not. IOWs it is good to live as a Jew but if you wish to do this then you must live by all the precepts and laws of the Jews.... Observe all of them. Understand that the Jews observe much more than just the Shabbat(sabbath).... There are many customs and precepts that come with the Sabbat that are observed in reverence to God that are Ancient and have always been .... Here is how
they actually do it and their laws on the subject.

Like did you know that you cannot even drive on
the Sabbath? You will find this Jewish site quite
comprehensive ....

http://www.aish.com/shabbatlaws/sha...r_Beginners.asp

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[Debi1967]

then Cliff answered

Just on one point that you make about the covenant/jews/sabbath.

The Sabbath was long established before there was a Jew. It was established in Creation and is found in Gen 2:1-3

This is long before there was a Jew.

Jesus made the claim that the Sabbath was made for MAN. He never said the Sabbath was made for JEW.

MAN does not spell JEW.

Anyway thanks for your prompt reply.

blessings

And Debi replied back

Gen 2:1 So the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the furniture of them.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.

Gen 2:3 And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Again Cliff where in this Scripture does it say what day the Seventh Day is? And this does not preclude that the Jews were given many other laws that pertained to the Sabbath as well and how they were to observe the Sabbath.

You make a good point that Jew does not mean MAN because when Christ died, in that, we all became ONE NEW MAN in Him meaning that there was no longer Jew nor Gentile .... So, therefore, when we observe the Lord's day, who is in actuality God, then are we not observing the Sabbath? When God talks of the Sabbath in Genesis and in Leviticus, he talks of it in essance of it being as a presecription that One day be set aside for total devotion to the Lord.

Also in Genesis I want you to notice that there was only one command given unto Adam

Gen 2:16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

He did not command Adam to observe the Sabbath Day .... He also created the Sabbath before he created even Man period as is evidenced in Gen 2:3-7

It was a preparation of things to come, it was meant specifically for the Jews.

preparing of food being done the day before is signified in God's command to them in Exodus 16:22-23 this too is still observed today....

this also talks of doing no work on that day

the fact that they were not allowed to leave their homes is found in vs 29 and until this day they still do not leave their homes unless it is to go to synagogue.


Exo 20:8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.

Exo 20:10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

Still here again you do not see that it is Saturday, this was established by Moses therefore, it is was established by Tradition what the day would be not by anything that Bible said specifically .... It was done according to the ancient calendar.

In Exodus 31 we see where it tells that the Sabbath was a Covenant made between God and Isreal .....

Exo 31:16 Let the children of Israel keep the sabbath, and celebrate it in their generations. It is an everlasting covenant

Exo 31:17 Between me and the children of Israel, and a perpetual sign. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and in the seventh he ceased from work.

For the chosen ones of Isreal it is a Covenant those that are observant of the LAW... You seem to misunderstand sometimes that this was specific to Isreal.

When Christ came and a New Covenant was made.... This Covenant was with Christ our Lord ... Our Saviour and Redeemer... As Christ he could give authority to anyone to do anything in His stead and did .... Here is a prime example and another one that I brought out in the thread when answering the question on confession.

Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

Joh 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Now I want you to realize that the Father sent His Son and in doing so His Son died as a Sacrifice for us to then be the Risen Lord so that we may again also Rise.... But He also Gave His Son Authority.... Where to the Isrealites their judge was the Father ours will be the Son that died for us and yet you want me to observe the old Covenant made with the Father between the Jews that specific to them and which they will judged by...
Also realize too, that the Jews at the time had to accept the Lord as their God and were chastized when they did not. Here their Lord that was foretold of in prophecy stood before them and they had him killed.
Remember that those that choose to stand by the Laws will be judged solely by the Law, but those that accept the free gift and Grace will be judged according to the Grace. Yes I do believe that we have to have both Faith and Works because I also believe in what Paul said that Faith without works is dead and in Revelation 20 it tells us that we are going to be judged by them. But at the same time I also believe in Grace and the acceptance thereof and the rebirth that takes place in Baptism because of the Lord and His Sacrifice. Some would say this is double talking and in reality it is not, as I believe it is by Grace that I am Saved, and then through continued Faith and works that I attain Salvation .... Salvation being different than the initial Grace being bestowed upon me that has Saved me from my old self.​

 

[Cliff2]

There are losts of very good questions that Debi has brought up and am wondering if we could look at the first one.

where does it say specifically in the BIBLE that after GOD (JESUS) gave the Keys to Bind and Loose to Peter which is Biblical that HE could not change it?

 

[ra123]

Hi Cliff2, In Matthew 28 it should read, In the end of the sabbath's as it began to dawn toward the first of the sabbath's. God made all things new on Sunday.

 

[Debi1967]

**Daniel 7:25**

this verse was used to say that Peter could not change it .... to which I answered this way

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

Dan 7:26 And a judgment shall sit, that his power may be taken away, and be broken in pieces, and perish even to the end.




But this contradicts Scripture

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Now since we know that SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CONTRADICT then sorry then Daniel does not apply in this instance to the power given unto Peter to BIND AND LOOSE... therefore your argument is exegetically incorrect and invalidated by Scripture itself

That is unless you would like to say now that the LORD himself is a liar?

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=19961733&postcount=25

 

[Oblio]

Hi Cliff2, In Matthew 28 it should read, In the end of the sabbath's as it began to dawn toward the first of the sabbath's. God made all things new on Sunday.

Exactly !

Sunday of Great and Holy Pascha is the Mystical Eighth day, the first day of the new Creation. The old Creation, and the Sabbath that commemorated it, has passed away. The old things have passed away, all things are made new !! We now commemorate the Resurrection of our Lord and the new life and Creation, not the old The purpose of the Jews and their ritual laws has been fulfilled, culminating in the birth of the most Holy Theotokos, and from her flesh, our Saviour.

 

[icxn]

St. Paul says:

We know that the law is spiritual (Rom. 7:14)

And he gives an example when he says:

For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. (Rom. 2:28-29)

Similarly keeping the Sabbath is not something external but a matter of the spirit, namely the spirit's rest from all the passions.

In the Law and the prophets reference is made to the Sabbath (cf. Isa.66:23), Sabbaths (cf. Exod. 31:13) and Sabbaths of Sabbaths (cf. Lev. 16:31. LXX); (...) The Sabbath signifies the dispassion of the deiform soul that through practice of the virtues has utterly cast off the marks of sin. Sabbaths signify the freedom of the deiform soul that through the spiritual contemplation of created nature has quelled even the natural activity of sense-perception. Sabbaths of Sabbaths signify the spiritual calm of the deiform soul that has withdrawn the intellect even from contemplation of all the divine principles in created beings, that through an ecstasy of love has clothed it entirely in God alone, and that through mystical theology has brought it altogether to rest in God. - St. Maximus

 

[Debi1967]

And debiwebi will be back tomorrow to see where this is gooing because it is time for me to goooooooooo....

Good night alll see you in the AM Cliff to discuss thsi further with you ....

Your Sister in Christ
Debi

 

[oldsage]

Hi Cliff2, In Matthew 28 it should read, In the end of the sabbath's as it began to dawn toward the first of the sabbath's. God made all things new on Sunday.

No, this is incorrect, it should read, "Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week". also saying God made all things new on Sunday isn't said anywhere in the bible

 

[ra123]

Hi oblio, what is that avatar picture? It says Martyr Christophos.

oh and hi oldsage I see you posted about Matthew 28, God said let there be light on the first day of the week, so if are in him are a new creation.

 

[Oblio]

Hi oblio, what is that avatar picture? It says Martyr Christophos.

He is my patron Saint. His name means Christ Bearer.

 

[oldsage]

Hello, Debi,



My name is Chris, and I thought I have a go with replying to some of the comments you have in your post.

The same questions were asked in response by me of other things like where does it say specifically in the BIBLE that after GOD (JESUS) gave the Keys to Bind and Loose to Peter which is Biblical that HE could not change it?

It doesn't say that Peter has the same power and authority of God, else Peter could say it is ok to worship other gods and God would have to honor that.

Why then did the Lord say Do this in remembrance of Me?

Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Who did the Isrealites answer directly to as opposed to who are we as Christians going to answer to?

I am not sure what is meant by this.

And the fact is nowhere in the BIBLE does it say specifically that Saturday is the Sabbath that was a tradition of the Isrealites brought about by the Calendar and brought about because of God saying that he worked for six days and rested on the seventh.... But nowhere in the Bible does it say that this was anymore than an example to them of how the Sabbath should be observed.... Again I brought this out in Scripture.

While this would be true but if you read in Ex 16 when God showed them which day was the Sabbath, it had nothing to do with a Calendar nor tradition, because they have forgotten the Law of God for the most part. God had the Mana fall down for 6 days and then on the 7th no Mana fell and told them it was a Sabbath to the Lord, then in Ex 20 gave the law, and they understood the Sabbath to be the Seventh Day according to the cycle God has shown them.

I also brought out in Scripture that the Sabbath was a specific Covenant between God and the Jews ONLY.

I would like to see this passage, thank you.

Since now we are neither Jew nor Gentile under the New Covenant brought about by Christ then our Sabbath is the observance of this New Covenant with Him ..... The Christian Covenant ....

The New Covenant differs how from the Old?

Isn't it the Laws not being in our hearts?

Unlike the Jews where the Father was their judge, our judge is Christ because the Father so said this and also said that we owe our allegience not only to the Father but also to Christ ..... because now the only way to the Father is through the Mediator which is Christ to whom we answer to.

There has always been a mediator. Where did this distinction that the Christ's role has changed or the Father's role has changed? All this was planned from the foundation of the world.

Another interesting point that I brought up was this, Christ repeated EVERY OTHER Commandment except that of the Sabbath

Can you show all the Commandments Christ repeated, I don't think He repeated them all.

and then right before His Death He told the Disciples Keep doing this in Commemoration/Rememberance of ME..... Yet He did not tell them when to do it did He? He did not say do it on Fridays or Saturdays ...... He actually gave them no other specific instruction except to keep doing it in remembrance of HIM ....

I am going to assume you are talking about The Lord's Supper? It is Passover, done once a year.

Just like with Moses He gave no real specific instruction except that God told Moses He worked for six days and then rested on the seventh and then Moses himself related this to the calendar. but in truth God could have started working on the earth in the middle of the week calendar wise and then ended on another day

Here is the problem with this line of thought, Sabbath is counted like this..day 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath, day 1,2,3,4,5,6, Sabbath. Now, we put a calendar in the picture, it is still counted the same, we can mix the days up, flip the months and all sorts of things to the calendar, but the 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath cycle remains the same, it has nothing to do with the calendar.

Another point to you Cliff is that Paul warned several times that those that chose to live by the Old Covenant Laws would also be judged according to them.

Yes, if one were trying to be justified by the Law then there would be a problem, you will be judged by that same Law, Paul was not speaking about if you keep it, but if you try to justify yourself by it. This is a big difference, keeping the Law is the right thing to do because the Law is Holy, Just and Good (Rom 7:12). Those that have faith in Jesus though, are not under the Law and have passed from death to life, now we live a life that is zealous for good works (Titus 2:14)

IOWs it is good to live as a Jew but if you wish to do this then you must live by all the precepts and laws of the Jews.... Observe all of them. Understand that the Jews observe much more than just the Shabbat(sabbath).... There are many customs and precepts that come with the Sabbat that are observed in reverence to God that are Ancient and have always been .... Here is how
they actually do it and their laws on the subject.
Like did you know that you cannot even drive on
the Sabbath? You will find this Jewish site quite
comprehensive ....

This site is from Judaism, their belief system is completely different than us Christians. Judaism is not the religion of the Old Covenant, this form of religion had it's start about 400 B.C. After the Babylonian captivity, they started coming up with oral laws that would put a protective hedge around the Laws so they would not mistakenly break them. And Rabbinic Judaism is so far removed from Chistian thought they should not even be compared to one another. So, we should not mistaken the Jews of the Old Testament era with the Jews of Judaism today.



Ok, I think I touched on everything. I think I will like to see how this thread turns out.

Peace,

Chris

 

[GraceInHim]

See Colossians 2:14-17, "He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days— these are only the shadow of the things to come, but the reality is Christ!"



Also see Romans 14:5-6, "One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. Each must be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day does it for the Lord. The one who eats, eats for the Lord because he gives thanks to God, and the one who abstains from eating abstains for the Lord, and he gives thanks to God."


KJV

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]



16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.



I make him first everyday.... I notice in Revelation there is no Sabbaths mentioned - so I would think if God was mad - because he knows everything - he would if mentioned it -

 

[oldsage]

See Colossians 2:14-17, "He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days— these are only the shadow of the things to come, but the reality is Christ!"
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

You posted this twice, I am not sure if that was a mistake or not, but I am a Sabbatarian and I agree 100% with this passage. I don't judge people in how they keep the feast, new moons or Sabbath.

We are not to judge people unless it is a righteous judgment. So, this I agree with.

I am guessing you are talking about people judging others how they keep those days.

Also see Romans 14:5-6, "One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. Each must be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day does it for the Lord. The one who eats, eats for the Lord because he gives thanks to God, and the one who abstains from eating abstains for the Lord, and he gives thanks to God."

Wonderful verse but the topic is the Sabbath.

GraceInHim]I make him first everyday.... I notice in Revelation there is no Sabbaths mentioned - so I would think if God was mad - because he knows everything - he would if mentioned it -

I would hope all Christians put God first everyday. the Sabbath is mentioned 61 times in the New Testament in english but the word in greek appears 68 times. How many times does it need to be mentioned for it to be important? or 198 times in the whole bible in the greek, and 12 times from the book of Acts on.

For me, if God says it once, it is important.

 

[GraceInHim]

You posted this twice, I am not sure if that was a mistake or not, but I am a Sabbatarian and I agree 100% with this passage. I don't judge people in how they keep the feast, new moons or Sabbath.

We are not to judge people unless it is a righteous judgment. So, this I agree with.

I am guessing you are talking about people judging others how they keep those days.
[/font][/color]
[/font][/color]
Wonderful verse but the topic is the Sabbath.



I would hope all Christians put God first everyday. the Sabbath is mentioned 61 times in the New Testament in english but the word in greek appears 68 times. How many times does it need to be mentioned for it to be important? or 198 times in the whole bible in the greek, and 12 times from the book of Acts on.

For me, if God says it once, it is important.

I do not do the Sunday only thing - I actually pray more and stay in on Saturdays - just feels better and closer to him. thanks - I will edit it.

 

[GraceInHim]

oldsage - I used to types of Bible verses - cuz sometimes we do not get the full writings - KJV verse starts on a different number