Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

[PaleHorse]

Well, I'm not catholic, but, ok =)

Honestly, you would do well to read through some of this thread - lots of good information.

Since you aren't Catholic (I'm assuming you are Protestant), in order to say that Sunday is the day of rest, you'll need some scriptural support.

Are you Protestant?

 

[PaleHorse]

I had heard about this but wasn't sure if it was true. Now I know.
http://www.nisbett.com/sabbath/sunday_history.htm
"A crowning act of impious nonsense of the thirteenth century should be mentioned. Apparently Sunday sacredness had not been sufficiently established everywhere, so that it was promoted by a so-called divine warrant. Roger Hoveden, a historian of high repute, lived at the very time when this much-needed precept was furnished by the pope. We are informed that Eustace, the abbot of Flaye in Normandy, came to England in the year 1200 to preach the word of the Lord, and that his preaching was attended by many wonderful miracles. He inveighed against the desecration of Sunday, but was repulsed, so returned to Normandy from where he had come. In the following year, 1201, Eustace returned to England, and in his preaching forbade any person to hold a market of goods on sale on the "Lord's Day." He claimed that he had received an underwritten commandment for the observance of the "Lord's Day," come down from heaven. (emphasis mine)

"Which came down from Heaven to Jerusalem, and was found upon the altar of Saint Simeon, in Golgath, where Christ was crucified for the sins of the world. The Lord sent down this epistle and after looking upon which, three days and three nights, some men fell upon the earth, imploring mercy of God. And after the third hour, the patriarch arose, and Acharias, the archbishop, and they opened the scroll, and received the holy epistle from God. And when they had taken the same they found this writing there:

"I am the Lord, who commanded you to observe the holy day of the Lord, and ye have not kept it, and have not repented of your sins, as I have said in my gospel, 'Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.'. . . Once more, it is my will, that no one from the ninth hour on Saturday until sunrise on Monday, shall do any work except that which is good.

"And if any person shall do so, he shall with penance make amends for the same. And if you do not pay obedience to this command, verily, I say unto you, and I swear unto you, by my seat and by my throne, and by the cherubim who watch my holy seat, that I will give you many commands by no other epistle, but I will open the heavens, and for rain I will rain upon you stones, and wood, and hot water, in the night, that no one may take precautions against the same, and that so I may destroy all wicked men.

"This do I say unto you; for the Lord's holy day, you shall die the death, and for the other festivals of my saints which you have not kept, I will send unto you beasts that have the heads of lions, the hair of women, the tails of camels, and they shall be so ravenous that they shall devour your flesh, and you shall long to flee to the tombs of the dead, and to hide yourselves for fear of the beasts. . . .

"Hear ye my voice, that ye may not perish in the land, for the holy day of the Lord. Depart from evil, and show repentance for your sins. For, if you do not do so, even as Sodom and Gomorrah shall you perish. Now, know ye, that you are saved by the prayers of my most holy Mother, Mary, and of my most holy angels, who pray for you daily. . . .

"I gave unto you a law in Mount Sinai, which you have not kept. I gave you a law with mine own hands, which you have not observed. For you I was born into the world, and my festive day ye knew not. Being wicked men, ye have not kept the Lord's day of my resurrection. By my right hand I swear unto you, that if you do not observe the Lord's Day, and the festival of my saints, I will send unto you the pagan nations, that they may slay you. And still do you attend to the business of others, and take no consideration of this? For this I will send against you still worse beasts, who shall devour the breasts of your women. I will curse those who on the Lord's day have wrought evil" (Hoveden, Volume 11, pp. 526-528).

We have quoted a part of the "heaven-sent" document to show what men will stoop to do in order to bolster up a doctrine or tradition for which they have no scriptural grounds. In such ridiculous forgeries did the Sunday rest of the Dark Ages culminate. "

So, it took a "heaven sent" scroll/letter/document on an alter in order to help establish Sunday observance?

 

[Debi1967]

St. John the Evangelist was the writer of the Gospel of John.

No he was not he is one in the same .... This contention was not even brought into play until the 4th century until then it was taken that all of the epistles .... The Gospel and the books of John and Revelation all were the writings of John himself ... it also has been tried to be proven otherwise unsuccessfully many times over that this contention that they are two separate writets is inn fact .... a fact....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08438a.htm

The epistles of John



B. Internal evidence So striking is the internal evidence in favour of common authorship of the Gospel and First Epistle of John, as to be almost universally admitted. It cannot be by accident that in both documents we find the ever-recurring and most distinctive words light, darkness, truth, life, and love; the strictly Johannine phrases "to walk in the light", "to be of the truth", "to be of the devil", "to be of the world", "to overcome the world", etc. Only such erratic and sceptical critics as Holtzmann and Schmiedel deny the forcefulness of this argument from internal evidence; they conclude that the two documents come from the same school, not from the same hand.



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08435a.htm

Apocolypse
But from tradition we know that the Seer the Apocalypse was John the Apostle the son of Zebedee, the Beloved Disciple of Jesus. At the end of the second century the Apocalypse was acknowledged by the historical representatives of the principal churches as the genuine work of John the Apostle.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

Sorry folks, but there were only two primary objectors really to The Authenticity that the Apostle John wrote all of these books and instead of people seeing that they have NEVER been able to conclusively prove the fact that he did not write them all they have simply accepted their THEORIES and nothing more than theories .... But you show me the proof that is empirical and objective that He did not write them and I might believe you ....

 

[prodromos]

The gospel of Luke was written in about 64-70 A.D., whereas Ignatius wrote in roughly 135 A.D

Um... Ignatius was martyred in 107 A.D. It is possible that the Apostle John was still alive at the time Ignatius wrote his letters.

John.

 

[Cliff2]

Um... Ignatius was martyred in 107 A.D. It is possible that the Apostle John was still alive at the time Ignatius wrote his letters.

John.

According to this Catholic site the Apostle John as an old man in the year 100 AD.

 

[Debi1967]

surviving all his fellow apostles, and died at Ephesus about the year 100.

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=228

 

[Debi1967]

Um... Ignatius was martyred in 107 A.D. It is possible that the Apostle John was still alive at the time Ignatius wrote his letters.

John.

So therefore Promodos is correct is in saying that he most certainly could have been alive when Ignatius was wrting his letters.... as Ignatius was martyred in 107 AD.... What suddenly someone CANNOT live to a ripe old age or something?

 

[lmnop9876]

No he was not he is one in the same .... This contention was not even brought into play until the 4th century until then it was taken that all of the epistles .... The Gospel and the books of John and Revelation all were the writings of John himself ... it also has been tried to be proven otherwise unsuccessfully many times over that this contention that they are two separate writets is inn fact .... a fact....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08438a.htm

The epistles of John



B. Internal evidence So striking is the internal evidence in favour of common authorship of the Gospel and First Epistle of John, as to be almost universally admitted. It cannot be by accident that in both documents we find the ever-recurring and most distinctive words light, darkness, truth, life, and love; the strictly Johannine phrases "to walk in the light", "to be of the truth", "to be of the devil", "to be of the world", "to overcome the world", etc. Only such erratic and sceptical critics as Holtzmann and Schmiedel deny the forcefulness of this argument from internal evidence; they conclude that the two documents come from the same school, not from the same hand.



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08435a.htm

Apocolypse
But from tradition we know that the Seer the Apocalypse was John the Apostle the son of Zebedee, the Beloved Disciple of Jesus. At the end of the second century the Apocalypse was acknowledged by the historical representatives of the principal churches as the genuine work of John the Apostle.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

Sorry folks, but there were only two primary objectors really to The Authenticity that the Apostle John wrote all of these books and instead of people seeing that they have NEVER been able to conclusively prove the fact that he did not write them all they have simply accepted their THEORIES and nothing more than theories .... But you show me the proof that is empirical and objective that He did not write them and I might believe you ....

the reason I referred to him as St. John the Evangelist was because he was an evangelist (i.e. a gospel writer). He was also an Apostle and Theologian. He wrote the Gospel of John, at least the first epistle of John, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ. this is what i wrote a couple of posts later. he may also have written the epistles designating as being by 'the elder,' but an early church council referred to their author as 'another John, called the presbyter.' it doesn't really matter, it's all the inspired Word of the living God.

 

[Cliff2]

According to this Catholic site the Apostle John as an old man in the year 100 AD.

"St. John, Apostle and Evangelist (Feast day - December 27th)

St. John, the son of Zebedee, and the brother of St. James the Great, was called to be an Apostle by our Lord in the first year of His public ministry. He became the "beloved disciple" and the only one of the Twelve who did not forsake the Savior in the hour of His Passion. He stood faithfully at the cross when the Savior made him the guardian of His Mother. His later life was passed chiefly in Jerusalem and at Ephesus. He founded many churches in Asia Minor. He wrote the fourth Gospel, and three Epistles, and the Book of Revelation is also attributed to him. Brought to Rome, tradition relates that he was by order of Emperor Dometian cast into a cauldron of boiling oil but came forth unhurt and was banished to the island of Pathmos for a year. He lived to an extreme old age, surviving all his fellow apostles, and died at Ephesus about the year 100."

This quote was taken from the above site being a Catholic site.

 

[Unnamed]

Then answer me this - the Sabbath Commandment says that we are to commemorate the day God rested on. He rested on the seventh day. So, since we are commanded to remember it, when do we do so and why?

Surely it depends on if you believe in a literal "seven 24 hour days". I believe that each day symbolised a "period" of time. We therefore are commanded to remember the seventh period of time. In so doing... we are not limited to doing so on the seventh day of each week.

As to the law, it was observed in Old Testament times and up until the resurrection of our Saviour. From that time forward, the saints gathered on the first day of the week (Sunday) and worshipped him. Why? to remember and commemorate the day on which he rose, and the atonement was completed.

 

[TrustAndObey]

As to the law, it was observed in Old Testament times and up until the resurrection of our Saviour. From that time forward, the saints gathered on the first day of the week (Sunday) and worshipped him. Why? to remember and commemorate the day on which he rose, and the atonement was completed.

All you have to do is read the book of Acts and you'll know that Paul "fathered" a Sabbath-keeping church. The church of Corinth was a Sabbath-keeping church. Since Paul fathered it, one would think he would've had them keep Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath...if that's how things were going to work from then on.

 

[prodromos]

All you have to do is read the book of Acts and you'll know that Paul "fathered" a Sabbath-keeping church. The church of Corinth was a Sabbath-keeping church. Since Paul fathered it, one would think he would've had them keep Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath...if that's how things were going to work from then on.

Could you please summarise the evidence in Acts and also explain what is meant by the term "Sabbath keeping"?

John

 

[TrustAndObey]

Acts 13:42 - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 - And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4 - And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

These were people that didn't know and/or want to believe that Jesus Christ WAS the Messiah, and I'm sure some of them had never heard the Word.

The Gentiles besought that the Word be preached to them on the next Sabbath. What a great opportunity for Paul to tell them that Christians would meet on Sunday...but he didn't.

Paul was at Corinth for a year and a half. Obviously since he "fathered" the church he would've impressed upon them that the Sabbath day was changed to Sunday in that amount of time...but he didn't.

Sabbath-keeping is an easy thing to explain. It is called a "holy convocation" which means an assembly. Going to church, worshipping the Creator, resting from secular work and dedicating an entire day to praying, learning, fellowshipping and resting. It's a wonderful delight and a blessing. I look forward to it every week.

Jesus said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath day--we all know that He healed people, etc. Many Sabbath-keepers like to go to hospitals on the Sabbath and witness to those that are ill/hurting. Others go to retirement homes to spend time with the elderly. Spreading God's Word on His holy day and helping people in need of hope.

Reading scripture, refraining from buying or selling, fellowshipping with your church family.....ahhh, what a glorious day!

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.



Psalms 40:8 - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

I'm going to post a study I did on Jesus vehemently fighting against the Pharisees about the Sabbath.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Did Christ break the Sabbath commandment by healing on that day or did He break it FREE?​

​

I hear a lot of people say Jesus broke the Sabbath commandment by healing on that day. Did He really break the law of God?

Please consider who it was that said Jesus broke the Sabbath. It certainly wasn’t the Bible. The Holy Bible, the word of God, says that Jesus never sinned.

So who was it that accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath?

John 9:16 - Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the Sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Those verses make it clear that the Jews/Pharisees were already seeking to kill Christ and they were looking for any excuse to do so.

We have to remember that these were people who did not accept Christ as the promised Messiah. They were expecting a great king with many riches to appear, and refused to acknowledge a poor carpenter as being the Messiah.

Do an internet search on the Pharisees and see who it is exactly that we’re dealing with here.

Here’s the dictionary definition of a Pharisee (Merriam Webster): PHARISEE--1 a member of a Jewish sect of the intertestamental period noted for strict observance of rites and ceremonies of the written law and for insistence on the validity of their OWN oral traditions concerning the law.

Here’s basically what any theologian will tell you if you ask them about the Pharisees: The Pharisees were self-righteous and did not believe Jesus was the Messiah, which is consistently evidenced in scripture. They wanted to kill Him because they felt He violated their law. They felt their own manmade laws and the law of Moses would "save" them and they put UNBIBLICAL restrictions on God's law, especially God’s holy day (Sabbath). Therefore Christ felt the necessity to rebuke the Pharisees quite frequently. Their restrictions made the Sabbath day a burden instead of a delight. God always intended for His holy day to be a delight. (Isaiah 58:13)

Matthew 12:14 - Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him [Jesus].

Again, I must urge you to consider the source of these accusations against Christ. It was the same people that wanted our Savior dead.

And then please consider what Jesus said when they accused Him of “working” on the Sabbath day by healing a man with a withered hand:

Matthew 12:11 - And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 - How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days.

For Christ Himself to call it “lawful” obviously means that He wasn’t breaking the law!
Jesus made it quite clear that there would be emergency situations on the Sabbath (a sheep in a pit for example) and that they had to be taken care of. However, Jesus did not do carpentry on the Sabbath day nor did He accept money for healing. So was He really working?

If Jesus hadn’t healed on the Sabbath day, there would’ve been times that He missed someone in need of healing, because He was constantly traveling. What would you think of our Savior if He had turned His back on the man with the withered hand mentioned above? Please think about that.

I admire my Savior even more knowing He cured a man and set him free of affliction on a sacred day. It didn’t matter to Christ if it was on the Sabbath day because this was one of His sheep in need. We ARE the sheep of Christ and He pulls us out of pits when we need Him, no matter what day it is.

Mark 3:1 - And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. 3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. 4 And he saith unto them [Pharisees], Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

Healing is one of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-9), and anyone that has this great gift will tell you that it doesn’t feel like work, it’s a blessing. If performing the gifts of the Spirit were unlawful on the Sabbath, then it stands to reason that Christ wouldn’t have been able to use the gift of discernment, the gift of wisdom, and the gift of prophecy, or any of the other gifts He clearly displayed on Sabbath either. (again 1 Corinthians 12:4-9). What exactly were the people to do when called for an holy convocation (assembly) on the Sabbath day if they were unable to discuss the word of God and reason among themselves?

To get straight to the point, our Savior did what was lawful on Sabbath, and He should know--He’s Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8).

Jesus declared Himself Lord of the Sabbath day to rebuke the Pharisees that wanted to “lord” their own authority over the people of God.

Jesus also stated that if a priest went into the synagogue to preach on the Sabbath day, that priest was held blameless (i.e. he wasn’t breaking the law of God). Please click on this link to read the many translations/versions of Matthew 12:5. Many biblical translations of Matthew 12:5

The Pharisees were basically following Jesus around nitpicking every little thing He did, because they refused to believe who He was and were looking for any excuse to kill Him. Read Matthew 12 and notice just how many times these people tried to accuse Christ of breaking the law of God. Then notice please, how many times Jesus rebuked them for it!

Jesus speaking -->Matthew 23:23 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

For someone to say “Jesus broke the Sabbath” puts them in agreement with a group of people whose beliefs obviously angered Christ very much!! Christ called them "evil" and "vipers"! Is that someone you really want to form an alliance with?

Now I have to ask the question….do you believe people that wanted to kill our Savior over the word of God?

John 15:10 - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus did not break the Sabbath. According to the bible He was a sinless Man and was very pleasing to the Father (Matthew 17:5--this verse comes long after the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath). According to Jesus Himself He kept the commandments of God (John 15:10 above).

What Jesus did do was break the Sabbath FREE from unbiblical restrictions placed on it by the Pharisees. He openly rebuked the Pharisees several times and called them hypocrites (Matthew 23:13-16, Matthew 23:25-29).

The Pharisees also accused Christ of being possessed and of being a drunkard yet you never hear of a Christian repeating those accusations.

Our Savior is not guilty of ever breaking the law of God, no matter what the Pharisees said. In fact, He fought vehemently against the Pharisees making God's holy day a burden....we should too.

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[PaleHorse]

As to the law, it was observed in Old Testament times and up until the resurrection of our Saviour. From that time forward, the saints gathered on the first day of the week (Sunday) and worshipped him. Why? to remember and commemorate the day on which he rose, and the atonement was completed.

Please read the thread - this has been successfully refuted time and again. In fact, I think it's time to do a recap - this will save you some time:

Argument #1:
"The Sabbath was for the Jews.¨
o It is not a Jewish institution, for it was made about 2,300 years before Jews existed, right at creation.Genesis 2:2-3. To say the Sabbath is just for Jews is to say that marriage is just for the Jews as well since both the Sabbath and marriage were given to Adam and Eve in the beginning.
o The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" or "my Sabbath¨ (meaning it is God's Sabbath).
o Mark 2:27 - And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:
(Made for who? MAN! That is a silly way to spell Jew or Israelite.) “Man” here means mankind.
o God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it.Isaiah 56:6,7

Argument #2:
"That was the old covenant - Jesus did away with the Sabbath and all the other ceremonial laws.”
o When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life.Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.¨ Thus Jesus followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?
o The Ten Commandments were not part of Moses’ ceremonial law as Exodus 19, 20, and 31 clearly show. Also, there are many Bible references that show there was a distinguishment made between the Commandments and that of Moses’ book of the law.
o Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed.Matthew 12:1-13
o Jesus is also known as the Lord of the Sabbath.Matthew 12:8. Why be Lord of something you were going to abolish?
o Christ instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection.Matthew 24:20. When one reads all of Matt 24 they’ll see that Jesus was warning the disciples of the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem – which occurred about 40 years after His resurrection. Are we to believe that Christ didn’t know when this siege would take place?
o Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the Sabbath day." Acts 13:14-16.Sounds like the Sabbath was still in effect even then, well after Christ's death.
o The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times - sounds like God is trying to tell us something. And never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other nor was it abolished.
o Luke 23:56 - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Jesus' own mother observed the Sabbath AFTER Jesus died. If He had changed or done away with the Sabbath day (having nailed it to the cross), wouldn't His own mother have known it? She was a follower of the Messiah; Mary was certainly a Christian despite her ethnicity, just as Christians all over the world are.


Argument #3:
"God doesn't care what day we observe.¨
o Isa 56:13&14 "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbatha delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."
- "THE¨ is defined as "an absolute, genuine article¨. The verse doesn't say "a" Sabbath day - it clearly says "the" Sabbath day; it's very specific.
o Exodus 20:8-11, 31:13-17, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."
- Once God blesses, hallows, and sanctifies something it is that way forever. God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6) nor does His law (Luke 16:17) nor does His Sabbath, nor does His baptism for that matter.(Ephesians 4:5) This verse also specifies a particular definite day; the seventh day, which we call Saturday. It starts at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday according to OT reckoning.
o Any time one looks up the Sabbath in the Bible it is always described it as being on the seventh day. (Whenever a description is given, that is.) Never is the first day (Sunday) mentioned in this regard.
o God is very specific on things - He leaves little to be open to interpretation. Examples would include the exact measurements He gave Noah for the building of the ark (Gen 6:15), the Ark of the Covenant and the earthly sanctuary (Exodus 25:10 thru 36:21), precisely what to do with the lambwhen Passover was established (Exodus 12:8), etc. Do you think the wall of Jericho would have toppled if the children of Israel would have marched around it only 6 times, or did it take the full 7 before the blessing was received? Did a certain someone have to wash in the Jordan river once, or twice, or the full 7 times before his blessing of healing come? God is concerned with details; He’s a God of precision; and He says what He means. He said “the” seventh day. I think He does care what day we observe.

Argument #4:
”The apostles broke bread on the first day of the week”.
Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week (yup, that's Sunday), when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."
o The disciples broke bread every day (see Acts 2:46) - that is not a reason for observing a different day of worship anyway and only shows lack of Biblical scholarship of someone using this argument. Furthermore, the term "breaking bread" here does not mean communion; otherwise the disciples were taking communion every single day. Does Acts 20:7 say that breaking bread constitutes a change to God’s day of rest? Nope.
o Something that most miss is that if you read the story further you'll find that Paul starts out on Sunday morning for his trip; he travels about 30 km and then buys a boat ticket! Now, if Sunday had been any kind of holy day then Paul would not have been traveling nor purchasing anything on that day.

(end part 1)

 

[PaleHorse]

Argument #5:

Many cite the following Colossians 2:14-16:
Col 2:14-16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:"
o This verse is referring to the Mosaic Law (some say Sinaic Law or Levitical Law, some say ceremonial law) and this is evident by the inclusion of the "new moon" phrase as well as reference to the meat and drink offerings that would take place (compare to Leviticus 23:37). There are two sets of laws in play here, two types of sabbaths; one was described as being grievous to us (Col.2:14-16), and the 10 Commandments which were not grievous to us (1 John 5:3). How can the same law be grievous and not grievous at the same time? It cannot; clearly there are two sets of laws. Additionally, there isn't a single "ordinance" in the 10 Commandments. See definition of "ordinance" in any dictionary - it discusses festival regulations and the like.
I. DEUT. 31:26 Take this book of the law (Moses' Law), and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee

By comparison Moses' Law was written in a book on paper; God's Law was written with His finger on stone - don't let the symbology there escape you either. Also, the Commandments were put “inside” the ark (Exodus 40:20) not “in the side” (Deut 31:26) of it.
II. Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth (limited to) a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

(I’ll touch upon this verse again later in this essay for it is a biggie.)

III. Leviticus 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: 38 Beside(in addition to) the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.


Notice the verse in Leviticus 23:37; the word “beside” means in addition to, these feasts were the sabbaths that were in addition to the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. It is these sabbaths, not the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, that Col 2:14 is talking about – this is verified when one looks at the descriptors of “meat” and “drink” which are in reference to the offerings that would take place under Mosaic Ceremonial Law. So, again we see that the seventh-day Sabbath was different than these ceremonial sabbaths and it was the ceremonial sabbaths that were done away with according to Col. 2-14.

Argument #6:
"Jesus is my rest."
o Jesus is not a "day" nor is He ever symbolically/metaphorically linked to being a “day” in the Bible; He's linked to being "the vine", "the lamb", "the door", "the rock" and many other things but never, not once, a "day". We must stick to the Bible and the Bible only.
o To "rest in Jesus" actually has three meanings; 1) to rest on the Sabbath day (Heb 4:4&9) or 2) to be one of the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:14) for you are literally resting in Jesus' love and protection. Matthew 11:28 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Jesus can absolutely give us 3) spiritual rest, but we cannot "cease from all work" seven days a week. To do so is not holy, it's lazy.

Argument #7:
"Unlike the other 9 commandments, Christ doesn’t repeat the Sabbath commandment in the New Testament. As such, we don’t have to observe it.”

o Do people who say this also look at Hebrews 4:1-11? (*see verse below in Argument #11 or click here for an in-depth study.) The Sabbath commandment is most certainly repeated in the NT both in word as well as example.

o According to the following verse I’d say that Christ had every intention that His Sabbath would still be observed after His death:

Matthew 24:20 - But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The context of this verse is that Christ was warning the disciples about the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred in 70 AD at the hands of the Roman army. Christ prophesied that this event would happen and it did (Christ is never wrong). Why would Christ be concerned that people observe the Sabbath day at a time that would have been about 40 years after His death if His death was supposed to abolish it? Simple, He wouldn’t be concerned if that were the case – but since the Sabbath, like all His Commandments last forever, He was very concerned and told them to pray concerning it.

o Also, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it the “Sabbath day” in Acts 13:14. Aren’t the words of the Holy Spirit good enough since the Holy Spirit is the one who now convicts us of our sin?

o Mary, Christ’s mother, observed the Sabbath “according to the commandment” after Christ’s death. (See Luke 23:56) And I don't think anyone would argue that Mary was most certainly Christian.

o In the great Christian council, A.D. 49, in the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the "sabbath day." (Acts 15:21) Notice, that in all these verses, and many more, Sabbath isn’t referred to as “a” Sabbath, but instead “the” Sabbath day. There is only one weekly Sabbath day and that falls from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday.

Argument #8:
"The Holy Spirit descended on the people on the day of Pentecost; and that was a Sunday, so we observe Sunday as Sabbath."
o The Holy Spirit descended on people at other times in the Bible yet that has never constituted a change to God's Sabbath; why would it this time? The Bible never mentions a change to God’s holy day at all in connection with Pentecost. This argument is totally inconsistent with scripture and is the result of improper exegesis, hermeneutics, and apologetics. There is no place in the Bible that says "when Pentecost comes the Sabbath day will be changed to that day" nor is it even inferred.

Argument #9:
"Sunday is the Lord's Day - I observe the Lord's Day."
o "The Lord's Day" is only found in one place in the Bible, Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
John was the writer of the book of Revelation, that's why he is known as "John the Revelator". John was a Jew. As such, he knew and followed the seventh-day Sabbath. So, for him to use the phrase "The Lord's Day" would mean, if anything regarding a day of the week, Saturday (from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown to be exact)!
o Also, I recommend reading all of Revelation 1; not one time does it say what day the "Lord's Day" is. To assume it was a Sunday is wild speculation at best; sorry but there isn't any other way to say it. The truth is the "Lord's Day" or "Day of the Lord" has always referred to the day that Christ returns - His second advent. Any lexicon, unbiased concordance, Biblical scholar, or theologian will tell you that.

Argument #10:
"We observe Sunday in honor of the Resurrection."
o I am in no way belittling Christ resurrecting from death, but where is the scriptural authority to change God's holy day in honor of the resurrection? There isn't any scriptural authority for the change.
o How did Jesus tell us to honor His resurrection? With baptism! (Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12) So why disregard Christ's instructions or add to them? We have no authority to do such. Jesus' words are the truth - and we all know what happens when you add or take away from the truth (Revelation 22:19).
o Also, Christ specifically told us to take communion in remembrance of Him. (Luke 22:19) He never once said "change My Father's holy day".
o If Sunday observance is to commemorate Christ's resurrection then what is Easter for again? Which is it; Sunday observance or Easter that commemorates Christ’s resurrection? We cannot just make it up as we go along folks; the Bible is our guide.
o I challenge any good Christian to find scripture that says the redemption of our sin is in the resurrection. The Bible always refers to redemption being by, in, or through the BLOOD of Christ. (1 John 1:7 is one of my favorite verses). I will never overlook the importance of Christ rising from the dead, for that shows us that through Christ we will be resurrected as well, but let us be careful that we never overlook the fact that He died for us on a Friday, for that is the reason we even have a chance of salvation.

(end part 2)

 

[PaleHorse]

Argument #11:
"Hebrews 4:1-9 says that we should rest as He (Christ) is now, that He died for our sins and that Sabbath is basically suspended until we are on the new earth.“

But they don’t look at the entire statement being made. Let’s look at Hebrews 4:1-11 (if you want to see my in-depth study on Heb 4 click here):

Hebrews 4:1-11: Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The entire statement is actually in support of keeping the seventh-day Sabbath! If I may point out, in particular, verse 9 and cite from some other Bible versions:

WYC Therefore the sabbath is left to the people of God.
BBE So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
ASV There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
DBY There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.
ESV So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
NJB There must still be, therefore, a seventh-day rest reserved for God's people,
NRS So then, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God;
NIRV So there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people.
NIVUK There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
HCSB A Sabbath rest remains, therefore, for God's people.
NET Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
MRD Therefore it is established, that the people of God are to have a sabbath.
GRT ara apoleipetai sabbatismos tô laô tou theou

Apoleipetai means literally 'left behind' and sabbatismos in Greek literature is always, 100% of the time, referring to “seventh day sabbath-keeping”. It is derived from sabbaton which means “the seventh day of each week”. These all come from the primitive Hebrew word Shabbat, which literally means a “day of rest”. It is saying here that a seventh-day Sabbath keeping has been left for the people of God, even though the other ceremonial sabbaths were done away with (which were the shadows of Christ, see Leviticus 23:38); the weekly Sabbaths were not suspended until we are in the new earth as some believe. This further undermines the argument that the Commandments were done away with at the cross but that 9 of the 10 were reinstated. This argument holds no argument when the rules of hermeneutics are applied.

Scripture points out that God established the Sabbath at creation, Jesus observed it (and taught how it should be observed, even being called "Lord of the Sabbath"), the disciples observed it, all the prophets kept it, and according to Isa 66:22-23 we will be observing it in the new earth! Now, logic dictates that we should be observing it now. Let's see those verses in Isaiah:
Isa. 66:22-23 - For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Verse 11 talks about "laboring into that rest". Any Sabbatarian will tell you this is referring to preparation day (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, Matthew 27:62), the day before Sabbath in which all remaining work needs to be finished so that Sabbath can be focused upon Christ.


Argument #12:
"The Sabbath day has been lost to history due to calendar changes.”

This is incorrect and two small observations show this to be in error.

o First, such an argument makes the gross assumption that at some point in time every Jewish person in the world (all of which keep the seventh-day Sabbath) magically forgot what day Sabbath is on. This assumption flies in the face of common reason. And, just to play devil’s advocate, if this did in fact happen (world-wide Sabbath amnesia) the Jews would still have their documentation to remind them. The Jews have always been meticulous in their record-keeping and thus would have plenty of written information at hand that would set them back on the correct day of the Sabbath.

o Usually a second argument is that of the calendar changes from the Julian (which was in use at the time of Christ) to the Gregorian calendar that we use today some days were lost. But what they fail to realize is that if the calendar changes altered which day the seventh-day is from the time of Christ, then that change would also affect the first-day of the week as well, which would mean that those that observe Sunday due to Pentecost or the resurrection of Christ are also observing an incorrect day. The calendar changes did not affect the weekly cycle at all.

For those wanting more information of the Sabbath this is probably the best website I have found. Please click here.


(end Part 3)

 

[PaleHorse]

Um... Ignatius was martyred in 107 A.D. It is possible that the Apostle John was still alive at the time Ignatius wrote his letters.

John.

Okay, I'm not an expert on church history so I'll conceed that point.
But the overall point is still made: in Ignatis' letter to the Magnesians we find three important things; allow me post the letter again (saves us from having to find it):

“Let us therefore 1) no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." 2) But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. 3) And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].”

1) This indicates that they were keeping the Sabbath as the Jews were but he now is advocating observance to Sunday. This tells me that Sabbath-keeping was still being done by non-Jewish Christians up to around 100 A.D. (roughly).


2) This line indicates that Ignatius is advocating breaking God’s Commandment because Ignatius says “not in relaxation of the body”; but the Commandment says to “rest” and “do no work”.

​

3) This line indicates that he is saying that Sabbath is still around but that Christians should observe the Lord’s Day (meaning Sunday to him) – ignoring the scriptures that indicate that Christ’s death/resurrection are to be observed by baptism (Romans 6:3-5) and we should take Communion to remember Christ in general (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24-25)


​

Would you agree?

 

[Cliff2]

Okay, I'm not an expert on church history so I'll conceed that point.
But the overall point is still made: in Ignatis' letter to the Magnesians find three important things; allow me post the letter again (saves us from having to find it):
“Let us therefore 1) no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." 2) But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. 3) And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].”

1) This indicates that they were keeping the Sabbath as the Jews were but he now is advocating observance to Sunday. This tells me that Sabbath-keeping was still being done by non-Jewish Christians up to around 100 A.D. (roughly).


2) This line indicates that Ignatius is advocating breaking God’s Commandment because Ignatius says “not in relaxation of the body”; but the Commandment says to “rest” and “do no work”.

​

3) This line indicates that he is saying that Sabbath is still around but that Christians should observe the Lord’s Day (meaning Sunday to him) – ignoring the scriptures that indicate that Christ’s death/resurrection are to be observed by baptism (Romans 6:3-5) and we should take Communion to remember Christ in general (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24-25)




​

Would you agree?

Now that PaleHorse has done a very good job setting out the arguement for the seventh day as being the Biblical Sabbath.

Is there a Sunday keeper here that can do the same to support Sunday as the Sabbath?

 

[lmnop9876]

please tell me where the Bible specifies that the last day of the week is the Sabbath?