GraceInHim said:
But then that has not been proved or shown to be.
So the Sabbath still being a commandment, what do we do then?
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GraceInHim said:if the Sabbath is not a commandment no more - then the sabbath is not Israels law anymore also?
Cliff2 said:During the past year many threads have been opened up concerning the Sabbath.
There are a few points that we could probably look at in some detail.
Such as these.
Was the Sabbath kept before the Law was given to the Children of Israel?
Is the Sabbath really Jewish and there for not binding on Christians today?
If there are other points that need to be brought up then by all means do that.
Debi has kindly consented to help out in this discussion by transfering information from other threads as she sees fit to do so.
Thanking you in advance for your help.
Jimmy West said:It is a trivial thing to God as to which day you give him, as long as you give him one day out of the seven. Actually, he wants us to give him every day, and THAT IS WHAT HE DESERVES!
Oblio said:Exactly !
Sunday of Great and Holy Pascha is the Mystical Eighth day, the first day of the new Creation. The old Creation, and the Sabbath that commemorated it, has passed away. The old things have passed away, all things are made new !! We now commemorate the Resurrection of our Lord and the new life and Creation, not the oldThe purpose of the Jews and their ritual laws has been fulfilled, culminating in the birth of the most Holy Theotokos, and from her flesh, our Saviour.
oldsage said:Hello, Debi,
My name is Chris, and I thought I have a go with replying to some of the comments you have in your post.
It doesn't say that Peter has the same power and authority of God, else Peter could say it is ok to worship other gods and God would have to honor that.
Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
I am not sure what is meant by this.
While this would be true but if you read in Ex 16 when God showed them which day was the Sabbath, it had nothing to do with a Calendar nor tradition, because they have forgotten the Law of God for the most part. God had the Mana fall down for 6 days and then on the 7th no Mana fell and told them it was a Sabbath to the Lord, then in Ex 20 gave the law, and they understood the Sabbath to be the Seventh Day according to the cycle God has shown them.
I would like to see this passage, thank you.
The New Covenant differs how from the Old?
Isn't it the Laws not being in our hearts?
There has always been a mediator. Where did this distinction that the Christ's role has changed or the Father's role has changed? All this was planned from the foundation of the world.
Can you show all the Commandments Christ repeated, I don't think He repeated them all.
I am going to assume you are talking about The Lord's Supper? It is Passover, done once a year.
Here is the problem with this line of thought, Sabbath is counted like this..day 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath, day 1,2,3,4,5,6, Sabbath. Now, we put a calendar in the picture, it is still counted the same, we can mix the days up, flip the months and all sorts of things to the calendar, but the 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath cycle remains the same, it has nothing to do with the calendar.
Yes, if one were trying to be justified by the Law then there would be a problem, you will be judged by that same Law, Paul was not speaking about if you keep it, but if you try to justify yourself by it. This is a big difference, keeping the Law is the right thing to do because the Law is Holy, Just and Good (Rom 7:12). Those that have faith in Jesus though, are not under the Law and have passed from death to life, now we live a life that is zealous for good works (Titus 2:14)
This site is from Judaism, their belief system is completely different than us Christians. Judaism is not the religion of the Old Covenant, this form of religion had it's start about 400 B.C. After the Babylonian captivity, they started coming up with oral laws that would put a protective hedge around the Laws so they would not mistakenly break them. And Rabbinic Judaism is so far removed from Chistian thought they should not even be compared to one another. So, we should not mistaken the Jews of the Old Testament era with the Jews of Judaism today.
Ok, I think I touched on everything. I think I will like to see how this thread turns out.
Peace,
Chris
Oblio said:Incorrect, and a commonly held myth. The Apostolic Fathers record that it was Christ and His Apostles that taught the principle of Sunday worship. Christians were worshipping on Sunday for 300 years before St. Constantine. Further, St. Constantine did not establish any Christion canons or traditions but rather called the first Ecumenical Council where the Church decided issues.
Oblio said:From ca 120 AD
lonnienord said:I am not going to stay with this thread. I will post my understanding once. The sabbath commandment is one of the 10 commandments that GOD spoke on the Mountain. It is the most specific commandment. It is as important that we keep the 7th day Sabbath as it is that we not kill. We know that Saturday is the Sabbath because the Jews have always kept it holy. There has always been Jews and they have perserved the torah along with the Sabbath on Saturday.
i believe that the ten commandments are binding on all of GOD's childern because HE spoke them and HE wrote them on stone with HIS own finger.
JESUS never changed the sabbath. HE gave the keys to the church but does that mean the church has the right to change HIS spoken word??? (i am a Catholic and i fulfill the Sunday obligation which as far as i can tell can be done by attending mass on Saturday (Sabbath) evening
TrustAndObey said:Isaiah, I think for now we should just keep our discussion Sola Scriptura. You can reference the early church fathers, but it really doesn't help. First of all because this is a discussion about WHO changed the Sabbath day to Sunday....and really you're just cementing the fact that it was not God.
The Word of God never calls Sunday the "Lord's Day". That's the point I'm trying to make and I think you agree with me on that.
And PaleHorse is right, if the Sabbath were nailed to the cross then Mary wouldn't have kept it the next day. The resurrection really has nothing to do with her keeping the Sabbath the day AFTER Christ was nailed to the cross, right?
SassySDA said:PaleHorse is absolutely correct. It would have ended when Jesus said, "It is done", and breathed His last breath while hanging on that cross.
ra123 said:It was SassySDA, the vail of the temple was rent, God ended it.
GraceInHim said:so is it sunday or saturday? hmmm -
Cliff2 said:I do believe you have the right day of the week.
Now what we need to keep in mind that a statement such as this needs some Biblical support.
When it comes to Saturday being the Sabbath it can be shown from Ex. 20:8-11 and earlier in Gen. 2:1-3
Just wondering what Bibles verse you would use to show that the Sabbath is
"no longer an obligation for anyone. Jew or Gentile"
ra123 said:Upon the first of the sabbaths is reference to the new era of sabbaths Sunday, not the old sabbaths when you bring up Acts 20:7, to make distinction, Upon the first of the sabbaths. It's like God saying he gave the bill of divorcement because of the hardness of your hearts, but from the beginning it was not so, so Sunday. But Adam and Eve sinned and the law entered. But now that Christ has redeemed us we are now back to the beginning with him forever, the first of the sabbaths.
Thank you spirit1st for those verses.
tall73 said:What on earth are you saying? Seriously, I want to understand what you are saying, but I think this whole spiritual explanation of not only Acts 20, ,but assumedly the text in I Cor is not making sense.
They simply met on the first of the week. Why make it complicated?
ra123 said:Remember Gods word tall.
Adam and Eve fell from grace and became subject unto the law of God, having a saturday sabbath, which can never save. Before that they were with God himself, they needed no sabbath.
When Jesus came to save his people, they are now reconciled back with God and are in grace, the first of the sabbaths, from the beginning, the first day of the week, the first day of eternity.
2 Cor 5:2, be ye reconciled to God.
Isa 65:17, For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Hosea 14:1, O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
14:2, Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
me said:My name is Chris, and I thought I have a go with replying to some of the comments you have in your post.
Debi said:OOPSIES..... WOW .... umm sorry I totally misread that at the time please forgive me for what was put here
Debi said:me said:It doesn't say that Peter has the same power and authority of God, else Peter could say it is ok to worship other gods and God would have to honor that.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Umm what part of "whatsoever" is not understood? I think that it goes without saying though that you are right, but then again I think GOD, knew what he was doing too when he gave this power to Peter didn't you consider this? He is of course GOD after all.... I think that highlighted part of where it says about Christ's Church that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it ..... well I think that is something to think about because see if we were to say and readily accept as Doctrine that there were other Gods that would mean that the gates of hell have prevailed .....
Debi said:me said:Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Yes and who was it that he delivered up out of the Land of Egypt? The Isrealites or the Gentiles?
Debi said:me said:I am not sure what is meant by this.
Well let us see, God the Father was their judge and our judge is the Son our Redeemer, Christ.... That is what was meant by that, it seemed pretty clear to me at the time. My other Brethren even understood this premise when I brought it out to them and acknowledged it.
Debi said:me said:While this would be true but if you read in Ex 16 when God showed them which day was the Sabbath, it had nothing to do with a Calendar nor tradition, because they have forgotten the Law of God for the most part. God had the Mana fall down for 6 days and then on the 7th no Mana fell and told them it was a Sabbath to the Lord, then in Ex 20 gave the law, and they understood the Sabbath to be the Seventh Day according to the cycle God has shown them.
This is true and thus where my exegesis comes from .... now due to the inconsistensies of the calendar over the years in the Jewish calendar .... do you see where I am going with this....
Debi said:me said:The New Covenant differs how from the Old?
Let us see what does new mean as opposed to old ....hmmm I think it would mean that the new is different then than the old otherwise then there would be no need for anything new would there?
me said:Isn't it the Laws not being in our hearts?
Yes, whereas it was mostly before about preforming ceremony. Does not anyone read the Bible and see the difference in the way God handled things in the Old testament as opposed to the New testament.... hmm does this not give a clue.... Before judgement was poured out upon them then at the time of their infraction against the Lord. Whereas now, what do we see? We see that His mercy is greater and His hand of Justice not so swift to act readily at the minute. GRACE!!!!!
Debi said:me said:There has always been a mediator. Where did this distinction that the Christ's role has changed or the Father's role has changed? All this was planned from the foundation of the world.
This has never changed and never shall change ....
1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.
James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.
Where I think that people misunderstand is that there is ONLY ONE MEDIATOR between us and the Father and that is the Son, Christ our Lord.... but that does not mean that there is only one mediator between us and Christ, otherwise then we would not even be able to use the Comforter to mediate on our behalf.... The holy Spirit. Really ask yourself this question because then why would there be a need for a Trinity then? Why did Christ give us and send us the Comforter? In essence what you are saying is that there would be no need for even the Holy Ghost.... But this would be Blasphemy to the Lord our God would it not, to deny the Holy Ghost? Because Christ himself said that we could be forgiven blasphemy of the Father and the Son but we could never be forgiven Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, however you wish to put it.
Debi said:Unlike the Jews where the Father was their judge, our judge is Christ because the Father so said this and also said that we owe our allegience not only to the Father but also to Christ ..... because now the only way to the Father is through the Mediator which is Christ to whom we answer to.
Debi said:me said:Can you show all the Commandments Christ repeated, I don't think He repeated them all.
He did simply thank you when he said you shall Love your neighor as yourself and Worship God .... this about covers everything doesn't it because if you Love your neighbor as yourself you will not want to do anything to them that you would not want done to you....
Debi said:Another interesting point that I brought up was this, Christ repeated EVERY OTHER Commandment except that of the Sabbath
Debi said:me said:Here is the problem with this line of thought, Sabbath is counted like this..day 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath, day 1,2,3,4,5,6, Sabbath. Now, we put a calendar in the picture, it is still counted the same, we can mix the days up, flip the months and all sorts of things to the calendar, but the 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath cycle remains the same, it has nothing to do with the calendar.
You are Right and exactly the point I was trying to make it had nothing to do with the calendar whatsoever it had to do with a command given by God to the Isrealites as a Covenant with them, a mark if you will...
That they will bear the sign of whom they are... And no where does it say that it has to be a from Friday to Saturday in the Bible or that it cannot be changed .... It simply states that it muyst be observed in reverence and why... This is the point...
Debi said:Debi said:Another point to you Cliff is that Paul warned several times that those that chose to live by the Old Covenant Laws would also be judged according to them.
me said:Yes, if one were trying to be justified by the Law then there would be a problem, you will be judged by that same Law, Paul was not speaking about if you keep it, but if you try to justify yourself by it. This is a big difference, keeping the Law is the right thing to do because the Law is Holy, Just and Good (Rom 7:12). Those that have faith in Jesus though, are not under the Law and have passed from death to life, now we live a life that is zealous for good works (Titus 2:14)
No that is exactly what Paul was warning them about. Sorry to say.... he was talking to them that wanted to still be justified by the Law .... he was warning them and instructing them as to it's new purpose now.
Debi said:me said:This site is from Judaism, their belief system is completely different than us Christians. Judaism is not the religion of the Old Covenant, this form of religion had it's start about 400 B.C. After the Babylonian captivity, they started coming up with oral laws that would put a protective hedge around the Laws so they would not mistakenly break them. And Rabbinic Judaism is so far removed from Chistian thought they should not even be compared to one another. So, we should not mistaken the Jews of the Old Testament era with the Jews of Judaism today.
I know it is from Judaism and that it is Rabbinic Law but it is also the Ancient Rabbinic Laws that were applicable... Umm who said that it applied to Christian Law.... It was not meant to apply to Christan Law it was meant to show what they believed not what we believed. And certainly it was not meant to show what was apllicable after Christ established the New Covenant.
TrustAndObey said:I was hoping Oldsage would add his two cents on "mia sabbaton" since he is very well-versed in Greek and he's also very familiar with the feast day sabbaths. Oldsage, where are you bud?
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