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So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience. (cruztacean)
cruztacean said:I understand that SDA's CLAIM to believe there will be saints from every denomination. But my experience with them as far as what they act as if they DO believe is quite different. I have observed more than one shaking their heads after speaking to a happy, joy-filled Christian from another denomination, and say, "There's nothing sadder than someone who thinks they're saved and isn't." And after one Bible class, in which it was noted from Mrs. White's writings that Satan will continue to be punished long after others have been obliterated, someone observed, "And right there with him will be all those Sunday people." No one refuted the statement.
So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience.
Jesus did say, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He also said, Matthew 18:9 "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Ouch! Ever look at something you shouldn't have looked at? Then I assume you no longer have both eyes, since you want to keep Jesus' commandments to the letter.
If people want to nitpick down to verb tenses and prepositions, how many are willing to take Matthew 18:9 literally?
"The commandments of God" in Rev. 14:12, to me, is not synonymous with "the ten commandments." There are many, many other commandments in the Bible besides those ten. Your church's insistence on the Levitical diet shows that you adhere to other commandments besides the ten. But James tells us that if we keep the whole law but offend in one point, we are as guilty as if we'd broken every one. Every SDA in the world has used James 2:10 as a scriptural hand grenade against the rest of us. Is "the whole law" just the ten commandments, or is it "the whole law?" If it refers only to the ten commandments, then why not eat a pork chop? Dietary restrictions are not in the ten commandments.
Now, one last thing about Scripture wars. I think the whole mental image is ridiculous.
"The Bible says this!" (pin-pulling, toss, whistling sound, explosion)
"No, it really says THIS!" (more of the same)
Paul did talk about spiritual warfare, but I don't think we were supposed to use it on each other.
So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience. (cruztacean)
cruztacean said:I understand that SDA's CLAIM to believe there will be saints from every denomination. But my experience with them as far as what they act as if they DO believe is quite different. I have observed more than one shaking their heads after speaking to a happy, joy-filled Christian from another denomination, and say, "There's nothing sadder than someone who thinks they're saved and isn't." And after one Bible class, in which it was noted from Mrs. White's writings that Satan will continue to be punished long after others have been obliterated, someone observed, "And right there with him will be all those Sunday people." No one refuted the statement.
So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience.
Jesus did say, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He also said, Matthew 18:9 "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Ouch! Ever look at something you shouldn't have looked at? Then I assume you no longer have both eyes, since you want to keep Jesus' commandments to the letter.
If people want to nitpick down to verb tenses and prepositions, how many are willing to take Matthew 18:9 literally?
"The commandments of God" in Rev. 14:12, to me, is not synonymous with "the ten commandments." There are many, many other commandments in the Bible besides those ten. Your church's insistence on the Levitical diet shows that you adhere to other commandments besides the ten. But James tells us that if we keep the whole law but offend in one point, we are as guilty as if we'd broken every one. Every SDA in the world has used James 2:10 as a scriptural hand grenade against the rest of us. Is "the whole law" just the ten commandments, or is it "the whole law?" If it refers only to the ten commandments, then why not eat a pork chop? Dietary restrictions are not in the ten commandments.
Now, one last thing about Scripture wars. I think the whole mental image is ridiculous.
"The Bible says this!" (pin-pulling, toss, whistling sound, explosion)
"No, it really says THIS!" (more of the same)
Paul did talk about spiritual warfare, but I don't think we were supposed to use it on each other.
cruztacean said:I said I wasn't going to get into a Scripture war because no matter what Scripture is quoted, someone will always be able to interpret it in another way. Someone will always zero in on one little verb form, and it will degrade into a battle of nitpicking. It was NOT because I cannot back up what I say with Scripture.again. And I thoroughly resent your implying that.
ThreeAM said:Sounds like you were a pretty ill-informed SDA
I have a suggestion for you. Try going to the adventist forum on this site and ask them if they believe great Christians like Luthar, Wesley, Calvin and the other great reformers will be lost simply be cause they did not accept the sabbath. Ask if they think William Miller is lost because he never accepted the sabbath. Ask them if they think the billions of Christian Sunday keepers that came before the Advent movement are all lost.
I do not believe the AVERAGE SDA believes as you say. I'll watch for your post I'll be interested in the response. I cannot remember anyone in my church saying all sunday keepers are lost. I'm not sure why an informed SDA would say such a thing.
All churches have their individual ill-informed members just like I have heard some Pentecosts say if you don't speak in tongues you can't be saved. Ridiculous
Clean and unclean animals were first given in Moses time. I choose not to eat unclean meats because I feel it is more healthy. not because I think it is a sin. I don't think Man's body has changed alot from Moses time therefore what was unhealthly in his day is likely unhealth now. Some examples: Shell fish, pork=high in cholesterol. Some illnesses are associated with unclean food. Shell fish = hepetitis,cholera, Vibrio parahaemolyticus, Vibrio vulnificus
Pork = cysticercosisetc, Taenia solium,trichinosis etc.
cruztacean said:Tall73: You are correct about my personal ax to grind, and I accept the rebuke. Unfortunately, my "gripe with the church" is probably too big to repair. It covers far more than the Sabbath. As for not all Sabbatarians being SDA's, you're right about that. The ones I met most recently were downright insulted if you connected them with SDA's, but they took the same "you're going to hell because you go to church on the wrong day" approach that the SDA's I knew did. I'm so tired of hearing it. I mean, the Scripture does say, "Let no man judge you," with respect to the Sabbath day, and I'm just plain sick of being judged. So the little smug remark about, "Well, of course you don't want a Scripture war," the underlying hint being, "because you're unarmed," got my back arched. That hasn't been apologized for yet, nor has the "you're ill-informed" from the same person, because I'm reporting what I saw happen. (And I'M making personal comments?) People who may be trying to win me back to their church aren't using an approach that works for me.
cruztacean said:Tall73: You are correct about my personal ax to grind, and I accept the rebuke. Unfortunately, my "gripe with the church" is probably too big to repair. It covers far more than the Sabbath. As for not all Sabbatarians being SDA's, you're right about that. The ones I met most recently were downright insulted if you connected them with SDA's, but they took the same "you're going to hell because you go to church on the wrong day" approach that the SDA's I knew did. I'm so tired of hearing it. I mean, the Scripture does say, "Let no man judge you," with respect to the Sabbath day, and I'm just plain sick of being judged. So the little smug remark about, "Well, of course you don't want a Scripture war," the underlying hint being, "because you're unarmed," got my back arched. That hasn't been apologized for yet, nor has the "you're ill-informed" from the same person, because I'm reporting what I saw happen. (And I'M making personal comments?) People who may be trying to win me back to their church aren't using an approach that works for me.
ThreeAM said:If I were in your position I would not want to get into a "scripture war" either.
ThreeAm said:Sounds like you were a pretty ill-informed SDA
cruztacean said:As I mentioned, I was a Seventh-day Adventist, and as such I've heard every Saturday argument there is. "We're saved, and you're not, because we go to church on the correct day." No one is going to indoctrinate me back into it.
cruztacean said:So much for "we're right and everyone else is wrong" not being SDA doctrine.
linssue55 said:Nope your wrong! I will stick with my Exegesis.....always have, always will.
cruztacean said:And I'M making personal comments?.
tall73 said:First of all, I can attest to the presence of a good number of legalists, remnant-elitists etc. in our midst. Perhaps where Cliff is in Australia they don't have as many. Give thanks. We have them here. They are thoroughly convinced that every Sunday follower is steadfastly ignoring all the Scripture evidence and that they are willfully following the Devil.
Now having said that, I recogize these folks. But it doesn't change the actual debate on the merits of the issue.
GT is a place for comparitive theology. It is a debate forum. If you put your view here you are offering it up for critique. So if you post, and then say you don't want a Scripture war, that won't really fly.
If you wish to avoid a Scripture war, either don't post here, or simply post and then let people make what they will of your post.
Now hopefully the debate stays on a good level, not resorting to barbs at one another. Unfortunately it doesn't always happen.
I come here to discuss details. So it is not a war to me. It is a dialogue I DECIDE to enter. And if I want my point to be accepted, I know I have to back it up with clarification, further Scripture, history if applicable etc.
So please, let's get back to a discussion of the issues. If you have a gripe with the church, we have a forum and you can gripe there. Or you can start a different thread in GT about it. This is not an Adventist Thread. Nor are Old Sage, etc. Adventists, though they are sabbatarians. And I am sure they get tired of getting lumped in with all of the Adventists.
And for our part, it is up to us to avoid the personal comments as well.
Nor do I, Chris. Not many people remember that my group, the Seventh Day Baptists, were around two centuries before Ellen White, and that it was a SDB woman, Rachel Oaks Preston, that convinced a group of Adventists/Millerites that Saturday was the Biblical Sabbath.oldsage said:Yes, I really don't being lumped with a group I don't belong to.
jochanaan said:Nor do I, Chris. Not many people remember that my group, the Seventh Day Baptists, were around two centuries before Ellen White, and that it was a SDB woman, Rachel Oaks Preston, that convinced a group of Adventists/Millerites that Saturday was the Biblical Sabbath.
Remind me: Which group do you associate with?
jochanaan said:Nor do I, Chris. Not many people remember that my group, the Seventh Day Baptists, were around two centuries before Ellen White, and that it was a SDB woman, Rachel Oaks Preston, that convinced a group of Adventists/Millerites that Saturday was the Biblical Sabbath.
Remind me: Which group do you associate with?
If I am not mistaken, I believe that the state of Rhode Island was founded by the SDB, the first Governor of Rhode Island was a Sabbatarian.BrightCandle said:Happy Sabbath Jochanann!
Just curious, about how many SDBs are there now world wide, and in what country is the largest concentration of SDBs members located?
Not quite, Chris. Roger Williams, the first Governor of Rhode Island colony, was not a Sabbathkeeper, but he was a Baptist and later friendly towards Sabbathkeepers. The first Seventh Day Baptist Church in the American colonies was formed in Rhode Island in 1671; the building still exists and is a local historical landmark.oldsage said:If I am not mistaken, I believe that the state of Rhode Island was founded by the SDB, the first Governor of Rhode Island was a Sabbatarian.
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