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Which creation do creationists want us to believe took place?

cwolf20

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I wasn't very studious, and lost the book and my notes.

Also, it was the only room that didn't have air conditioning, and it was 95 in there, or felt like it. The class was canceled after a lady passed out from heat stroke.

however, there is a lot of land underneath the water. And there is an old sea level in some mountain ranges, that many scientists are confused by since lakes are too far away and too far down the mountains for it to make sense.

you'd have to do some internet searches for it.

side note: if I can find the article, somebody found a petrified rain forest in a cave. which would only make sense if a bunch of rocks covered it due to water carrying them or a simple landslide.
 
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thaumaturgy

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I wasn't very studious, and lost the book and my notes.

The lithospheric plates are thought to have been one supercontinent at least once if not a couple of times. Pangaea was the last incidence.

But the key is plate tectonics have nothing to do with "global flooding". The plates are rigid chunks of the earth's surface that move around on a "play-doh"-like consistency material in the upper mantle called the Asthenosphere.


however, there is a lot of land underneath the water.

Well, to be fair, one would expect "land" to be under the oceans. There has to be something at the bottom of the oceans. :)

But interestingly enough the "land" under the oceans is often dominated by basaltic or mafic rocks. The differences in the density of "oceanic" and "continental" crust explains why the continents usually ride up over the ocean crust when they meet. This is "subduction". Sometimes we see oceanic crust that rides up over continental crust and these are called ophiolites and tell us a great deal about what kind of rocks are in the mantle.

In addition we know from the geologic record sea levels have risen and land has dropped (isostacy) which resulted in cases where oceans have washed up on the countinents and shallow seas have developed on top of continental crust. The middle part of the U.S. used to be one massive shallow "epieric" sea in the distant past in the Paleozoic.

And there is an old sea level in some mountain ranges, that many scientists are confused by since lakes are too far away and too far down the mountains for it to make sense.

Again, there are instances where the oceans were over continental land. In addition marine rocks can be uplifted (as in the Himalayas where we see the same process still ongoing that produced the Himalayas and explains why shells are found in the rocks near the tops of some of these mountains).

In general the scientists really aren't that confused. In detail maybe specific instances have some confusing or interesting aspects, but plate tectonics has resulted in extremely complex terrain and it does help explain a lot of the "stranger" aspects.

This is not to say that there aren't "mysteries" in geology, but it isn't that hard to explain using plate tectonics.

you'd have to do some internet searches for it.

Well, if you could point us to a specific case of the mystery sea levels I might be able to assist in finding an article that has some insight into it. I have no doubt that there may be some instances in geology where the rocks are confusing and the scientists are still puzzling them out. It is a very interesting topic.

side note: if I can find the article, somebody found a petrified rain forest in a cave. which would only make sense if a bunch of rocks covered it due to water carrying them or a simple landslide.

Well, not really. Geology is really far more complex than that. Remember, if you find a "petrified forest" what you are seeing is that mineralized fluids moved through and replaced the organic material. IF those organics were themselves in a limey mud that later became a limestone (we often find chert nodules in limestones in different places indicating a silica-rich fluid moved through a limestone) you might wind up with a cave that contains silicified organics (trees).

Again, I'd have to see a specific case. I am dubious that the only explanation was what you described here. But again, I'd have to see the specific case.

Keep in mind also, that even if you find a case where a "flood" or landslide etc was the only explanation, the key is that floods and landslides are known to have happened in geologic history, but so far we have no indication of a catastrophic flood of the Biblical variety.

These are all very interesting examples you have suggested. If you find the specifics, please forward them onto this forum.
 
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MoonLancer

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With plate tectonics, The sea floor can be shifted upwards and mounts can fall into the sea. So its not really a change in the water, but whether the land is above water or underwater can change and shift. Its a slow process.

If a global food occurred, I think their would be more evidence. i think it would be visible as a solid timeline in most of the solid rock layers.

*edit* and Thaumaturgy for the win
 
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MoonLancer

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More evidence?

Are you guys holding out on us?

No, Are you? I currently have you down for Zero Evidence with lots of assertion and special pleading.

I don't think i am an error asking for more evidence then zero, when deciding if something is true or if it happened.
 
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juvenissun

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How was Obama able to win the presidency without all the votes being counted? Why did the stations call ohio for Obama without every single vote in that stat counted? The moment That Ohio was called, I KNEW that Obama won the presidency. How did i know this?

lets assume film is 24 frames a second. If i where to remove 20 of those frames a second the video would be watchable, and we would be able to formulate a very good idea of the movies content and plot without those extra 20 fps. Why is this? How is this possible?

These two explanations demonstrate That Evolution can be absolutely true and NOT need a fossil from every generation.

Your also missing the point. Regardless of if you believe you are a primate or not, The mechanics of evolution have been directly observed in lab. Its a Fact. A provable observable fact, with mountains of evidence to support it. Scientists know more how evolution works, then gravity.

You don't fool me. I learned a few things here. Evolutionist could not define what is evolution and what is species. Let alone with other things that are based on these two definitions.
 
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juvenissun

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So you admit that the feature created by a global flood would be the same, at least in general terms, as one created by local floods? Great. Now why don't we see a worldwide flood deposit? Why don't we see something akin to the K-T boundary, except as a flood deposit?

These two things are of different nature, and can not be compared. K-T boundary is hard to identify. Global Flood deposit could not be identified.


Then why don't you try? Pick one. I don't care which. They each individually conclusively show that no global flood can possibly have occurred.

So we stick with the flood deposit for a while, until you accept that we could not identify flood deposit in a general sense. So to ask for a worldwide flood deposit is not a valid request.
 
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juvenissun

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With plate tectonics, The sea floor can be shifted upwards and mounts can fall into the sea. So its not really a change in the water, but whether the land is above water or underwater can change and shift. Its a slow process.

If a global food occurred, I think their would be more evidence. i think it would be visible as a solid timeline in most of the solid rock layers.

*edit* and Thaumaturgy for the win

Just "a" line?
I can give you 10 such lines, if not 100.

If anyone wanted to see an evidence, he should describe what evidence is expected. You named one (good), but is not valid (too bad). So, what other evidence do you like to see? If you say: I don't know. Then even an evidence sits right in front of you, you would not recognize it.
 
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MoonLancer

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You don't fool me. I learned a few things here. Evolutionist could not define what is evolution and what is species. Let alone with other things that are based on these two definitions.

Ah but I did something even better. I forced you to make an empty assertion to defend yourself because you could not show why connecting the dots or sampling is invalid to describing the whole, when the whole is not present.

Point me to the thread. I call your bluff. Lets see who it is that could not define the words evolution and specs. After it only takes a dictionary. Hows that definition of "kind" coming along?

Just "a" line?
I can give you 10 such lines, if not 100.

If anyone wanted to see an evidence, he should describe what evidence is expected. You named one (good), but is not valid (too bad). So, what other evidence do you like to see? If you say: I don't know. Then even an evidence sits right in front of you, you would not recognize it.

What line do you speak of? you could at least be specific. Also I like the part where you don't say why asking for sedentary layer that shows a flood in all parts of the world is not a valid request.

If their are any natural formations today that could not have survived the flood and could not have formation after the flood, That shows that their was no flood.

I would also expect collaboration on what rock layer is represented by the flood. Cant you tell me which rock layer the flood happen in? Did the Flood happened before or after the ice age? currently creations cant agree about much of anything when it comes to a global flood. Probably because theirs no evidence to base these assertions on, so they just take a random guess based on a few anomalous facts

If we are talking about Noah along with the arc, I would expect all animals and humans to have a bottle neck in their genetic code (like cheetahs). A long time ago, almost all the cheetahs were killed. Because of this cheetahs are nearly all related and incestuous.

However I think what is most telling is that Your the one asserting the flood, yet you provide no evidence for said flood or even what evidence would look like. Its not my job to tell YOU what your evidence should look like.

PS: I am waiting for those 10-100 "Lines" and a link to a thread that shows scientists unable to show what evolution is or what species is.
 
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Chalnoth

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*scratches head* there was a history class in which a professor showed that there was evidence that the continents used to be one continent. Which could be caused by a flood receding but not far enough. funny thing though, he was an atheist and stated

"I realize that somebody here will try to use this as proof that God created a flood. This is a history class not a religious class. take it somewhere else."

edit: created wasn't a typo. he did say it instead of "caused"
The last pangaea was about 250 million years ago. They seem to happen periodically, about once every 500 million years or so. A flood really didn't have anything to do with the break-up of pangaea, though local floods surely happened during that time (since it was such a long period of time). The movement of crustal plates is due to convection in the mantle, not due to anything happening on the surface.
 
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Chalnoth

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These two things are of different nature, and can not be compared. K-T boundary is hard to identify. Global Flood deposit could not be identified.
Why not?

So we stick with the flood deposit for a while, until you accept that we could not identify flood deposit in a general sense. So to ask for a worldwide flood deposit is not a valid request.
Why on Earth should I accept what you assert without evidence? Of course a worldwide flood would be detectable, as much smaller-scale floods are detectable in the geologic record. A worldwide flood would necessarily be far, far more dramatic than a small local flood, and so would stand out even more strongly.

So tell me, why should I accept what you assert without evidence?
 
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juvenissun

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Why not?


Why on Earth should I accept what you assert without evidence? Of course a worldwide flood would be detectable, as much smaller-scale floods are detectable in the geologic record. A worldwide flood would necessarily be far, far more dramatic than a small local flood, and so would stand out even more strongly.

So tell me, why should I accept what you assert without evidence?

Because:

1. You can not say anything to against what I said. (except "show me evidence")
2. You don't know what kind of evidence you want to see.

You have to accept what I said until you can do better.

--------

If you can identify a feature made by a small flood, and want to see a "far far more dramatic" analogy made by a global flood, then when you show me the smaller scale feature, I might try to find a larger scale similarity for you.
 
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juvenissun

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thaumaturgy

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Because:

1. You can not say anything to against what I said. (except "show me evidence")
2. You don't know what kind of evidence you want to see.

You have to accept what I said until you can do better.

--------

If you can identify a feature made by a small flood, and want to see a "far far more dramatic" analogy made by a global flood, then when you show me the smaller scale feature, I might try to find a larger scale similarity for you.


Juvie has me on ignore (with the added bonus that he doesn't have to face up to a geologist in such debates) so I'll provide this concept for the others.

Some Evidences one could possibley expect for a Global Flood:

1. World-wide correlatable layer which cannot be correlated to any sub-areal exposure lithologies. eg no "dune deposits" that are contemporary anywhere on the planet.

2. A layer of globally correlatable turbidite-type sequences from sudden flooding or a globally correlatable scour type sequence.

3. A globally correlatable upward-fining sequence as flood waters calmed and finer sediments settled out on top of much more turbid-type sequences

4. A globally correlatable biocoenosis assemblange of fossils indicating massive die-offs for nearly all animal types. (Granted many of these animal types were put on the ark, but indeed there should be a massive world-wide die-off. There are examples of this sort of thing spanning longer time frames, not the least of which is the K-T boundary for dinosaurs).

5. A globally correlatable simultaneous destruction of human civilizations (if we are talking the Noachian Flood as described in the Bible complete with timing within the recent human past.)

Not that all of these have to be present but surely some of them would be. Any one by itself (save the extinction scenario) would be quite interesting to discuss. The extinction scenario could be tested against any contemporary subareal lithologies to see if indeed there was any dry land during this time frame.

It is also never required for someone to present evidence against the Flood. It is incumbent upon those who believe in the Flood to provide a mass of evidence in support of said flood. And that evidence should not be more easily explained as a myth story (ie just citing the Bible is insufficient as it doesn't explain Gilgamesh which uses other characters and other dieties, for example).
 
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juvenissun

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The last pangaea was about 250 million years ago. They seem to happen periodically, about once every 500 million years or so. A flood really didn't have anything to do with the break-up of pangaea, though local floods surely happened during that time (since it was such a long period of time). The movement of crustal plates is due to convection in the mantle, not due to anything happening on the surface.

Plate tectonics has everything to do with what happened on the surface.
 
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AV1611VET

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Chalnoth

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Because:

1. You can not say anything to against what I said. (except "show me evidence")
2. You don't know what kind of evidence you want to see.
You have no concept of default positions, do you? You are the one making the positive claim. It is up to you, therefore, to present the evidence and show why it is evidence for what you state.

If you can identify a feature made by a small flood, and want to see a "far far more dramatic" analogy made by a global flood, then when you show me the smaller scale feature, I might try to find a larger scale similarity for you.
Well, I'm having a difficult time looking up more specific information for how geologists identify floods, as all of my Google searches are dominated by attempts to promote/rebut flood geology. However, it is clear that there would be two general features to a flood: erosion and deposition. At the very least there must be evidence of these two things occurring for there to be evidence of a flood.
 
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Chalnoth

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Plate tectonics has everything to do with what happened on the surface.
Correct, but my point was that it doesn't go the other way 'round. By that I mean that plate tectonics can effect significantly what happens on the surface, but what happens on the surface typically has far less effect upon plate tectonics.
 
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cwolf20

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altavista.com. saves having to use one search engine at a time. as for why i backed out, I don't have time to search for anything. And until i do, there's no point continuing right now.

Y

Well, I'm having a difficult time looking up more specific information for how geologists identify floods, as all of my Google searches are dominated by attempts to promote/rebut flood geology. However, it is clear that there would be two general features to a flood: erosion and deposition. At the very least there must be evidence of these two things occurring for there to be evidence of a flood.
 
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Morcova

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Juvie has me on ignore (with the added bonus that he doesn't have to face up to a geologist in such debates) so I'll provide this concept for the others.

Some Evidences one could possibley expect for a Global Flood:

1. World-wide correlatable layer which cannot be correlated to any sub-areal exposure lithologies. eg no "dune deposits" that are contemporary anywhere on the planet.

2. A layer of globally correlatable turbidite-type sequences from sudden flooding or a globally correlatable scour type sequence.

3. A globally correlatable upward-fining sequence as flood waters calmed and finer sediments settled out on top of much more turbid-type sequences

4. A globally correlatable biocoenosis assemblange of fossils indicating massive die-offs for nearly all animal types. (Granted many of these animal types were put on the ark, but indeed there should be a massive world-wide die-off. There are examples of this sort of thing spanning longer time frames, not the least of which is the K-T boundary for dinosaurs).

5. A globally correlatable simultaneous destruction of human civilizations (if we are talking the Noachian Flood as described in the Bible complete with timing within the recent human past.)

Not that all of these have to be present but surely some of them would be. Any one by itself (save the extinction scenario) would be quite interesting to discuss. The extinction scenario could be tested against any contemporary subareal lithologies to see if indeed there was any dry land during this time frame.

It is also never required for someone to present evidence against the Flood. It is incumbent upon those who believe in the Flood to provide a mass of evidence in support of said flood. And that evidence should not be more easily explained as a myth story (ie just citing the Bible is insufficient as it doesn't explain Gilgamesh which uses other characters and other dieties, for example).

Quoted for those scared to debate actual science with scientists.
 
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