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Which Canon is Right? With Michael Kruger

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How do we know which books belong in the Bible, and which ones don't? Was the process of canonization a later development, or an authentic outgrowth from the first century? Is the Protestant canon or the Roman Catholic canon the right one? Dr. Michael Kruger addresses these questions and more. Dr. Michael J. Kruger serves as the President and Samuel C. Patterson Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the Charlotte campus of Reformed Theological Seminary. He earned his Ph.D. under one of the world’s leading text-critical scholars, Larry W. Hurtado, at the University of Edinburgh.


Great video!
 

chevyontheriver

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How do we know which books belong in the Bible, and which ones don't? Was the process of canonization a later development, or an authentic outgrowth from the first century? Is the Protestant canon or the Roman Catholic canon the right one? Dr. Michael Kruger addresses these questions and more. Dr. Michael J. Kruger serves as the President and Samuel C. Patterson Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the Charlotte campus of Reformed Theological Seminary. He earned his Ph.D. under one of the world’s leading text-critical scholars, Larry W. Hurtado, at the University of Edinburgh.


Great video!
I quickly found two major and very clear flaws with this guy's positions in the interview. I could come up with more, but these two should be sufficient.

First, his claim is that the OT books that the Protestants don't have were only added at the Council of Trent, after the Protestant Reformation, and as a Catholic Counter-Reformation action. This can be shown to be false by comparing what the Council of Trent said about the canon with what the Council of Florence said a hundred years before, before the Protestant Reformation even started. This is easy to check. The Council of Trent copied the Council of Florence. Thus he is wrong about books being added to the canon by Catholics in reaction to the Protestants. It's the other way around. Those now disputed books were in every Catholic Bible since the beginning of the Catholic Church. That's why the Catholic canon is substantially identical with all of the Orthodox canons. Because it all went back to the beginning. This is a substantial problem with what I heard in the interview. All one needs to do is compare the canon of the council of Trent with the canon of the Council of Florence, and then the Eastern Orthodox canons. If Trent added books to the Bible, how did the council of Florence authritatively list the same books? If Trent added to the Bible, how did the Orthodox end up with those books too?

Second, he claims that the OT canon was fixed in Judaism at the time of Christ. This can be shown to be false by comparing the canon of the Pharisees with the canon of the Sadducees. Did the Sadducees have the same canon as you have in accepting only the Torah? How about the Essenes? Did the Sadducees and the Pharisees and the Essenes all have the same OT? That's the claim in the interview. The Bible uses quotes from the LXX version of the Bible. That's the version with all of the OT books in it. That's still the version used by the Greek Orthodox who know Greek. And the LXX was a complete OT.

Both of these are issues of fact where the interview gets it wrong. Both are actually major problems, which I think lead to a slew of other problems. If you want a better view, I recommend Jaroslav Pelikan's 'Whose Bible Is It?' Pelikan started out as a Lutheran, was a leading Lutheran scholar, was the editor of the massive 'Luther's Works' which translated Luther into English clearly and completely, and then Pelikan ended up joining the Orthodox Church. He is careful and fair and if you do not know about him or this book you should read the book and get to know this author. I'm not Orthodox, but he is one of the clearest explainers of the canon this century. I wasn't Lutheran when I read 'Luther's Works' either last century, but he was a fair and accurate editor of Luther.

https://www.amazon.com/Whose-Bible-Short-History-Scriptures/dp/0143036777
 
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chevyontheriver

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And dont forget about the Eastern Orthodox canon and then of course the largest canon, the Ethiopian canon.
I have always wondered about the Ethiopian canon.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I have always wondered about the Ethiopian canon.

A number of their books were only found in Ge'ez, the classical Ethiopian language, similar to Latin and Classical Greek today.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Second, he claims that the OT canon was fixed in Judaism at the time of Christ. This can be shown to be false by comparing the canon of the Pharisees with the canon of the Sadducees. Did the Sadducees have the same canon as you have in accepting only the Torah? How about the Essenes? Did the Sadducees and the Pharisees and the Essenes all have the same OT? That's the claim in the interview. The Bible uses quotes from the LXX version of the Bible. That's the version with all of the OT books in it. That's still the version used by the Greek Orthodox who know Greek. And the LXX was a complete OT.

The official OT text is still the Septuagint. We even use the Prayer of Manasseh in one of the Compline services.

Both of these are issues of fact where the interview gets it wrong. Both are actually major problems, which I think lead to a slew of other problems. If you want a better view, I recommend Jaroslav Pelikan's 'Whose Bible Is It?' Pelikan started out as a Lutheran, was a leading Lutheran scholar, was the editor of the massive 'Luther's Works' which translated Luther into English clearly and completely, and then Pelikan ended up joining the Orthodox Church. He is careful and fair and if you do not know about him or this book you should read the book and get to know this author. I'm not Orthodox, but he is one of the clearest explainers of the canon this century. I wasn't Lutheran when I read 'Luther's Works' either last century, but he was a fair and accurate editor of Luther.

https://www.amazon.com/Whose-Bible-Short-History-Scriptures/dp/0143036777

Pelikan of blessed memory, was a massive figure in historical Christianity. He was a professor of history at Yale for years. He served as a pastor in the LCMS before going into academics. I have the first of his 5 volume history series on the history of Christianity.
 
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Good Day,

Just a bit more in formation as it relates to the Roman Catholic Scriptures and the Jewish Scriptures which would be the OT that Protestants use, seeing the Oracles of God were given to the Jews.

"
1. In Judaism

There are differences between the Jewish canon of Scripture30 “Law”, Nebi'im, “Prophets”, and Ketubim, other “Writings”. The number 24 was often reduced to 22, the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. In the Christian canon, to these 24-22 books correspond 39 books, called “protocanonical”. The numerical difference is explained by the fact that the Jews regarded as one book several writings that are distinct in the Christian canon, the writings of the Twelve Prophets, for example.] and the Christian canon of the Old Testament.31 To explain these differences, it was generally thought that at the beginning of the Christian era, there existed two canons within Judaism: a Hebrew or Palestinian canon, and an extended Alexandrian canon in Greek — called the Septuagint — which was adopted by Christians.

Recent research and discoveries, however, have cast doubt on this opinion. It now seems more probable that at the time of Christianity's birth, closed collections of the Law and the Prophets existed in a textual form substantially identical with the Old Testament. The collection of “Writings”, on the other hand, was not as well defined either in Palestine or in the Jewish diaspora, with regard to the number of books and their textual form. Towards the end of the first century A.D., it seems that 2422 books were generally accepted by Jews as sacred,32 but it is only much later that the list became exclusive.33 When the limits of the Hebrew canon were fixed, the deuterocanonical books were not included.

Many of the books belonging to the third group of religious texts, not yet fixed, were regularly read in Jewish communities during the first century A.D. They were translated into Greek and circulated among Hellenistic Jews, both in Palestine and in the diaspora."

The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible

As to the historical view and Luther we see his contemporary Cajetan writing:

Cajetan wrote a commentary on all the canonical books of the Old Testament which he dedicated to the pope. He stated that the books of the Apocrypha were not canonical in the strict sense, explaining that there were two concepts of the term 'canonical' as it applied to the Old Testament. He gave the following counsel on how to properly interpret the decrees of the Councils of Hippo and Carthage under Augustine:


Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

The historical record:

Our analysis has shown that the vast weight of historical evidence falls on the side of excluding the Apocrypha from the category of canonical Scripture. It is interesting to note that the only two Fathers of the early Church who are considered to be true biblical scholars, Jerome and Origen (and who both spent time in the area of Palestine and were therefore familiar with the Hebrew canon), rejected the Apocrypha. And the near unanimous opinion of the Church followed this view. And coupled with this historical evidence is the fact that these writings have serious internal difficulties in that they are characterized by heresies, inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies which invalidate their being given the status of Scripture. New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. I (Washington D.C.: Catholic University, 1967), p. 390.


In Him,

Bill
 
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Canonical originally meant "books to be read publicly in services". The deuterocanonicals in Greek are called, ἀναγιγνωσκόμενα (Anagignoskomena), "things to be read". They don't have doctrinal impact, but are part of profitable reading.
 
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Canonical originally meant "books to be read publicly in services". The deuterocanonicals in Greek are called, ἀναγιγνωσκόμενα (Anagignoskomena), "things to be read". They don't have doctrinal impact, but are part of profitable reading.


Good Day, GO

Thanks for that clarification I find lots of reading material profitable.

In Him,

Bill
 
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jamiec

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Canonical originally meant "books to be read publicly in services". The deuterocanonicals in Greek are called, ἀναγιγνωσκόμενα (Anagignoskomena), "things to be read". They don't have doctrinal impact, but are part of profitable reading.
That appears to agree with the Anglican position regarding “the books called Apocrypha”.

As to the question of canonicity, I think that the NT Church was not bothered about canonicity - the NT use of the Bible suggests a use of it that is respectful, but also free and easy and creative. Jesus quotes it, but is not limited to what it says - He is represented as having no scruples about going beyond the letter of it. His characteristic mode of teaching is by telling stories; not by expanding scripture. Jesus was not an expository preacher. Jesus and the apostles do not begin with what a text says, following that with an exposition of what the text is about; instead, they start with what is real here and now, and then reason from that to say that text was about that reality.

Jesus does not support his mission by assembling an arsenal of biblical passages in support of what he wants to say about himself; instead he is presented as starting with what He did or was, and claiming that an OT passage was speaking about that. But he does not provide any Biblical exegesis to support his interpretation of that passage. What Jesus does is to say that his ideas are what the biblical text is pointing to. His doctrine is not drawn from Scripture.

Similarly, the writer to the Hebrews does not ask whether Scripture points to the Priesthood of Christ - he starts with the Priesthood of Christ as being a fact, and uses the fact of it to undermine and relativise the Biblical doctrine of the Levitical priesthood, by assembling passages that show the inferiority of Aaron to Melchizedek.

Scripture is not final, supreme or determinative for the NT writers - Christ is. For them, Christus Solus makes Scriptura Sola impossible - because Christ, not Scripture, is the regulative Principle of the Christian Faith. The definitive revelation of God is Christ - not Scripture. Going to church does not make people Christian - and neither does reading a collection of ancient Jewish/Christian books. Without Christ and His Spirit, both activities lead only to death.

The letter of Scripture can kill - so I think we can safely infer that it is prevented from doing so only by Christ, Who is the Saviour even from Scripture, as well as from the Church. If the Church can do the work of the devil, why can the Bible not ? Making Scripture a false god is no different from making the Church a false god - once idolised, both, not one or other, are antiChristian lies, “things of nought”, that Christians must reject. The only Guarantor of true Scripture and true Church, is Christ: where Christ is, there is Scripture, there is the Church, there is life eternal. Only as enlivened by His Life-giving Spirit do they avoid becoming diabolical, and instead mediate His Life and Blessing. If they are not with Him, they are against Him.

It might be an exaggeration to say that, for the New Testament authors, whatever writings pointed to Christ counted as scripture; but I think that such an idea would not be far from the truth. They quote most of the books in the Jewish Scriptures - and some that are not. Acts 17.28 is Stoic, not Jewish, let alone Scriptural. But it points to something that is true in Christ - and that is enough to justify quoting it. Scripture matters only because Christ matters - He, not it, is the “context” for everything else in Christianity.

So I don’t think that the question of which canon the Churches should have, was one that can be settled by looking at the NT. I think the question of which books the Church ought to have, did not arise in the NT churches. That may help to explain why different Churches & Fathers had different collections of books. What was important, I think, was not “the canon” as a fixed and final list, but Christ, & which books pointed to Him.
 
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That appears to agree with the Anglican position regarding “the books called Apocrypha”.

As to the question of canonicity, I think that the NT Church was not bothered about canonicity - the NT use of the Bible suggests a use of it that is respectful, but also free and easy and creative. Jesus quotes it, but is not limited to what it says - He is represented as having no scruples about going beyond the letter of it. His characteristic mode of teaching is by telling stories; not by expanding scripture. Jesus was not an expository preacher. Jesus and the apostles do not begin with what a text says, following that with an exposition of what the text is about; instead, they start with what is real here and now, and then reason from that to say that text was about that reality.

Right, the notion of a canon began with the heresy of Marcion who proposed the first canon of an edited version of Luke and ten Pauline epistles and nothing else. Early church fathers began to formulate their own canon to oppose Marcion.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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How do we know which books belong in the Bible, and which ones don't? Was the process of canonization a later development, or an authentic outgrowth from the first century? Is the Protestant canon or the Roman Catholic canon the right one? Dr. Michael Kruger addresses these questions and more. Dr. Michael J. Kruger serves as the President and Samuel C. Patterson Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the Charlotte campus of Reformed Theological Seminary. He earned his Ph.D. under one of the world’s leading text-critical scholars, Larry W. Hurtado, at the University of Edinburgh.


Great video!
The views expressed in the video are dangerously imaginative and historically incorrect.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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When we compare the Bibles used by various Christian groups, we find the following writings that are not found in the Protestant Canon but which are found in the Bibles of other Christian groups:

Books and Additions to Esther and Daniel that are in the Roman Catholic, Greek, and Slavonic Bibles

Tobit
Judith
The Additions to the Book of Esther found in the Greek Version
The Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus, Son of Sirach
Baruch
The Letter of Jeremiah (Baruch ch. 6)
The Additions to the Greek Book of Daniel
The Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Books in the Greek and Slavonic Bibles; Not in the Roman Catholic Canon

1 Esdras (2 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 3 Esdras in Appendix to the Vulgate)
The Prayer of Manasseh
Psalm 151
3 Maccabees

A composite book in the Slavonic Bible and in the Latin Vulgate Appendix

2 Esdras (3 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 4 Esdras in the Vulgate Appendix; “Esdras” is the Greek form of “Ezra”)

(Note: In the Latin Vulgate, Ezra- Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras.)

A book in an Appendix to the Greek Bible

4 Maccabees (This book is included in two important Bibles from the fourth and fifth century.)

In my personal library, I have well over 100 bibles, and only two of them, an edition of the English Standard Version and an edition of the New Revised Standard Version, include all of the books and additions to Esther and Daniel that I have listed above.


There is also The Orthodox Tewahedo canon (commonly known in the West as the Ethiopic canon. It includes the following writings,

A. The Holy Books of the Old Testament
1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Ruth
9. I and II Samuel
10. I and II Kings
11. I Chronicles
12. II Chronicles
13. Jublee
14. Enoch
15. Ezra and Nehemia
16. Ezra (2nd) and Ezra Sutuel
17. Tobit
18. Judith
19. Esther
20. I Maccabees
21. II and III Maccabees
22. Job
23. Psalms
24. Proverbs
25. Tegsats (Reproof)
26. Metsihafe Tibeb (the books of wisdom)
27. Ecclesiastes
28. The Song of Songs
29. Isaiah
30. Jeremiah
31. Ezekiel
32. Daniel
33. Hosea
34. Amos
35. Micah
36. Joel
37. Obadiah
38. Jonah
39. Nahum
40. Habakkuk
41. Zephaniah
42. Haggai
43. Zechariah
44. Malachi
45. Book of Joshua the son of Sirac
46. The Book of Josephas the Son of Bengorion

B. The holy books of the New Testament
1. Matthew
2. Mark
3. Luke
4. John
5. The Acts
6. Romans
7. I Corinthians
8. II Corinthians
9. Galatians
10. Ephesians
11. Philippians
12. Colossians
13. I Thessalonians
14. II Thessalonians
15. I Timothy
16. II Timothy
17. Titus
18. Philemon
19. Hebrews
20. I Peter
21. II Peter
22. I John
23. II John
24. III John
25. James
26. Jude
27. Revelation
28. Sirate Tsion (the book of order)
29. Tizaz (the book of Herald)
30. Gitsew
31. Abtilis
32. The I book of Dominos
33. The II book of Dominos
34. The book of Clement
35. Didascalia

Some of these writing do not as yet exist (as far as I know) in English.
 
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Princeton Guy, do you have a good recommendation for an English translation of the LXX? The reason I am asking is that there are verses at the end of Job that Job will be resurrected. This is read on Great Friday in the Orthodox church. The Greek has these additional verses but not the English translation.
 
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Princeton Guy, do you have a good recommendation for an English translation of the LXX? The reason I am asking is that there are verses at the end of Job that Job will be resurrected. This is read on Great Friday in the Orthodox church. The Greek has these additional verses but not the English translation.

The standard critical edition of the Septuagint is that of Alfred Rahlfs publihed in 1935. A very minor revision by Robert Hanhart was published in 2006 but it has no impact on your concern. It gives us two readings of Job 42:17,

17 *καὶ ἐτελεύτησεν Ιωβ πρεσβύτερος καὶ πλήρης ἡμερῶν.‡

17a γέγραπται δὲ αὐτὸν πάλιν ἀναστήσεσθαι μεθ᾽ ὧν ὁ κύριος ἀνίστησιν.
17b Οὗτος ἑρμηνεύεται ἐκ τῆς Συριακῆς βίβλου
ἐν μὲν γῇ κατοικῶν τῇ Αυσίτιδι ἐπὶ τοῖς ὁρίοις τῆς Ιδουμαίας καὶ ᾿Αραβίας,
προϋπῆρχεν δὲ αὐτῷ ὄνομα Ιωβαβ·
17c λαβὼν δὲ γυναῖκα ᾿Αράβισσαν γεννᾷ υἱόν, ᾧ ὄνομα Εννων,
ἦν δὲ αὐτὸς πατρὸς μὲν Ζαρε, τῶν Ησαυ υἱῶν υἱός, μητρὸς δὲ Βοσορρας,
ὥστε εἶναι αὐτὸν πέμπτον ἀπὸ Αβρααμ.
17d καὶ οὗτοι οἱ βασιλεῖς οἱ βασιλεύσαντες ἐν Εδωμ, ἧς καὶ αὐτὸς ἦρξεν χώρας·
πρῶτος Βαλακ ὁ τοῦ Βεωρ, καὶ ὄνομα τῇ πόλει αὐτοῦ Δενναβα·
μετὰ δὲ Βαλακ Ιωβαβ ὁ καλούμενος Ιωβ·
μετὰ δὲ τοῦτον Ασομ ὁ ὑπάρχων ἡγεμὼν ἐκ τῆς Θαιμανίτιδος χώρας·
μετὰ δὲ τοῦτον Αδαδ υἱὸς Βαραδ ὁ ἐκκόψας Μαδιαμ ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ Μωαβ, καὶ ὄνομα τῇ πόλει αὐτοῦ Γεθθαιμ.
17e οἱ δὲ ἐλθόντες πρὸς αὐτὸν φίλοι·
Ελιφας τῶν Ησαυ υἱῶν Θαιμανων βασιλεύς,
Βαλδαδ ὁ Σαυχαίων τύραννος,
Σωφαρ ὁ Μιναίων βασιλεύς.

This passage says nothing about the resurrection of Job, and nothing comes after that passage. For a good English translation, I recommend,

A New English Translation of the Septuagint Edited by Albert Pietersma & Benjamin G. Wright published by Oxford University Press in 2007.
 
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The standard critical edition of the Septuagint is that of Alfred Rahlfs publihed in 1935. A very minor revision by Robert Hanhart was published in 2006 but it has no impact on your concern. It gives us two readings of Job 42:17,

This passage says nothing about the resurrection of Job, and nothing comes after that passage. For a good English translation, I recommend,

A New English Translation of the Septuagint Edited by Albert Pietersma & Benjamin G. Wright published by Oxford University Press in 2007.

Thanks! The quote comes from around 42:13 or so. The source I have has no verse numbers.

So Job died, old and full of days. It is written that he will rise with those whom the Lord resurrects.This man is described in the Syriac book as living in the land of Ausitis, on the border of Edom and Arabia. Previously his name was Jobab. He took an Arabian wife and begot a son named Ennon. But he himself was the son of his father Zare, one of the sons of Esau, and of his mother Bosorra. Thus, he was the fifth son from Abraham.
 
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Good Day,

Just a bit more in formation as it relates to the Roman Catholic Scriptures and the Jewish Scriptures which would be the OT that Protestants use, seeing the Oracles of God were given to the Jews.

"
1. In Judaism

There are differences between the Jewish canon of Scripture30 “Law”, Nebi'im, “Prophets”, and Ketubim, other “Writings”. The number 24 was often reduced to 22, the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. In the Christian canon, to these 24-22 books correspond 39 books, called “protocanonical”. The numerical difference is explained by the fact that the Jews regarded as one book several writings that are distinct in the Christian canon, the writings of the Twelve Prophets, for example.] and the Christian canon of the Old Testament.31 To explain these differences, it was generally thought that at the beginning of the Christian era, there existed two canons within Judaism: a Hebrew or Palestinian canon, and an extended Alexandrian canon in Greek — called the Septuagint — which was adopted by Christians.

Recent research and discoveries, however, have cast doubt on this opinion. It now seems more probable that at the time of Christianity's birth, closed collections of the Law and the Prophets existed in a textual form substantially identical with the Old Testament. The collection of “Writings”, on the other hand, was not as well defined either in Palestine or in the Jewish diaspora, with regard to the number of books and their textual form. Towards the end of the first century A.D., it seems that 2422 books were generally accepted by Jews as sacred,32 but it is only much later that the list became exclusive.33 When the limits of the Hebrew canon were fixed, the deuterocanonical books were not included.

Many of the books belonging to the third group of religious texts, not yet fixed, were regularly read in Jewish communities during the first century A.D. They were translated into Greek and circulated among Hellenistic Jews, both in Palestine and in the diaspora."

The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible

As to the historical view and Luther we see his contemporary Cajetan writing:

Cajetan wrote a commentary on all the canonical books of the Old Testament which he dedicated to the pope. He stated that the books of the Apocrypha were not canonical in the strict sense, explaining that there were two concepts of the term 'canonical' as it applied to the Old Testament. He gave the following counsel on how to properly interpret the decrees of the Councils of Hippo and Carthage under Augustine:


Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

The historical record:

Our analysis has shown that the vast weight of historical evidence falls on the side of excluding the Apocrypha from the category of canonical Scripture. It is interesting to note that the only two Fathers of the early Church who are considered to be true biblical scholars, Jerome and Origen (and who both spent time in the area of Palestine and were therefore familiar with the Hebrew canon), rejected the Apocrypha. And the near unanimous opinion of the Church followed this view. And coupled with this historical evidence is the fact that these writings have serious internal difficulties in that they are characterized by heresies, inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies which invalidate their being given the status of Scripture. New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. I (Washington D.C.: Catholic University, 1967), p. 390.


In Him,

Bill
Hmm. And yet the church did include the apocrypha...
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Thanks! The quote comes from around 42:13 or so. The source I have has no verse numbers.

So Job died, old and full of days. It is written that he will rise with those whom the Lord resurrects.This man is described in the Syriac book as living in the land of Ausitis, on the border of Edom and Arabia. Previously his name was Jobab. He took an Arabian wife and begot a son named Ennon. But he himself was the son of his father Zare, one of the sons of Esau, and of his mother Bosorra. Thus, he was the fifth son from Abraham.
My apology. I read too carelessly and missed the first part of the spurious reading added to Job 42:17 that Rahlfs Septuagint presents as 42:17a,

17 *καὶ ἐτελεύτησεν Ιωβ πρεσβύτερος καὶ πλήρης ἡμερῶν.‡

17a γέγραπται δὲ αὐτὸν πάλιν ἀναστήσεσθαι μεθ᾽ ὧν ὁ κύριος ἀνίστησιν.
(and it is written that he will rise again with those whom the Lord raises up)

The obvious question is what document is being referred to here? It is certainly not a document found in the Bible.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Morning Princeton,
The Septuagint is the official OT for the Orthodox church. So those passages are canonical for us. Since the Masoretic texts were compiled by Jewish scholars in the 10th century, it was never considered to be authoritative by the Eastern church.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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So Job died, old and full of days. It is written that he will rise with those whom the Lord resurrects.This man is described in the Syriac book as living in the land of Ausitis, on the border of Edom and Arabia. Previously his name was Jobab. He took an Arabian wife and begot a son named Ennon. But he himself was the son of his father Zare, one of the sons of Esau, and of his mother Bosorra. Thus, he was the fifth son from Abraham.
I am, of course, aware of these things. I read and value the Septuagint myself, but there is a huge difference between what the Alexandrian Septuagint says and what spurious additions to it say.
 
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