Which Button Would You Push?

[Tinker Grey]

So, here's part of the scenarios in question that puzzles me. Suppose you are a soldier in the army. The king or prophet-type (e.g., Saul, Joshua) comes and says "God told me that we are to wipe out X. Be sure to kill all the animals. And absolutely stab the babies. We wouldn't want them growing up to exact revenge." Would you accept that God told your leader that? I wouldn't, I hope.

What if it were your pastor or priest telling you that God said to march to Walmart and kill everyone? What if my boss said God said to go to the adjacent lab and kill everyone?

What should we think of the followers? How'd they know that these were God's orders? Should we praise them for being unquestioningly obedient to God's appointed leaders?

If God wants me to kill people, he can tell me himself. (And then, I'll check myself into a mental ward.)

The only good part of these stories is that they almost certainly didn't happen.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Moral for a human? Of course not. But I can't know what's moral for God any more than I can know what's moral for a kangaroo or a tuna. The genocide command makes that plain.

This does make a total hash of the claim that God is "good" tho....if "good" is to mean anything comprehensible at all.

Well I think if God has a different morality it would go a long way for Him to explain to us why killing an infant is moral somehow. How is it that it is good to kill the Amalekite infants for something they never did? If you don't know then ok, but why do you then assume it is good somehow?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Amalek make it issue by doing this.
Exodus 17:8 THEN CAME AMALEK, and FOUGHT WITH ISRAEL in Rephidim.

So because Amalek fought with Israel it justifies God telling Saul to kill infants? Can you explain why this is the case?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Is this another variant of the trolley problem?

Maybe, what is your answer and why?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

This is a form of total war. In the case of 1 Sam 15, God (being omniscient) has declared all the Amalekites terrorists. So yes, everyone including women and children are in category "A."

Did God owe the Amalekites a living? No.

I am not saying God owed them anything or that he doe snot have the right. I am asking why it is a good thing to kill the infants.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It's called The Doctrine of Total Depravity. Everyone's born in sin, and there are a ton of verses supporting it. God doesn't owe anyone anything, including babies. You do, but God doesn't. Your appeal to emotion fallacy ("zomg, babies") doesn't work either.

Quoting scripture word for word is not an appeal to emotion fallacy. It is the reason I am asking the question. Why was it good for God to tell Saul to kill the infants when God could have just killed the bad people? I know you think that infants were as bad as the actual bad people but sin and total depravity is just an assertion and has not been demonstrated to be true.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yep.

God alone gives the right to life, and as such, God may take that away, even in the case of an infant.

As a King, God may delegate tasks if he so chooses. He judged that no Amalekites had the right to live anymore, and he sent Saul to carry out his judgment.

I agree he has the right. But why is it good to kill infants in this scenario? God did not have to do it that way. He can kill people with pinpoint accuracy see Ananias and Saphira. There is no situation outside of the scripture that most Christians would be ok with it. How do you know that killing babies in abortions are not Gods judgement on Americans? Would that be right if He did that?

 

[Leaf473]

Maybe this has been touched on earlier in this thread...

I can understand being highly suspicious of the idea of God revealing things to me.
By the same token, it makes sense to me to be highly suspicious of the idea that I am responsible for my actions.

 

[durangodawood]

Yep.

God alone gives the right to life, and as such, God may take that away, even in the case of an infant.

As a King, God may delegate tasks if he so chooses. He judged that no Amalekites had the right to live anymore, and he sent Saul to carry out his judgment.

If thats all true, then the claim God is good is incomprehensible. "Good" in this case would be so foreign to what we understand that the word loses all meaning.

These days we'd call the person "good" who resisted a command from anyone to murder babies.

 

[durangodawood]

..the Amalakites are long gone, but their spirit is still alive.

Haman, Hitler, just two high water marks...

Good thing Hitler didnt have babies because then we'd have had to kill them.

 

[Robban]

Good thing Hitler didnt have babies because then we'd have had to kill them.

Well he did, thousands, all who followed him.

What is all the self righteous bull about infants?

Hiroshema, Dresden, Vietnam, Irak, syria.

Sounds like you are all living in a bubble.

 

[durangodawood]

Well he did, thousands, all who followed him.

What is all the self righteous bull about infants?

Hiroshema, Dresden, Vietnam, Irak, syria.

Sounds like you are all living in a bubble.

Wow. Humans do bad things? Who knew?

We're talking about a direct and specific command from a supposedly perfectly good being. Excusing His behavior because "humans do it too" is pretty weak.

 

[Robban]

Wow. Humans do bad things? Who knew?

We're talking about a direct and specific command from a supposedly perfectly good being. Excusing His behavior because "humans do it too" is pretty weak.

Boring and tiring.

 

[durangodawood]

Boring and tiring....

You took us down this boring path. Sleep well!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Because it is an ethical question. Notice most people here are posting about questioning the question and not questioning why God killed infants to punish them.

So there is a hidden agenda to your post. God killing infants. Thank you for clarifying. I say nothing.

 

[Bobber]

Between the two buttons?

I think I'd go underneath the button machine and disconnect the wires giving them power. OR, I'd add a lot of different other buttons with other choices.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

So there is a hidden agenda to your post. God killing infants. Thank you for clarifying. I say nothing.

Why do you say nothing? This is in your Bible. How have you reconciled this with your belief that God is good?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Between the two buttons?

I think I'd go underneath the button machine and disconnect the wires giving them power. OR, I'd add a lot of different other buttons with other choices.

Sounds like you would do whatever you could to not push button B.

 

[Halbhh]

The king or prophet-type (e.g., Saul, Joshua) comes and says "God told me that we are to wipe out X. Be sure to kill all the animals. And absolutely stab the babies.

Does it remind you of WWII and the United States? --
The U.S. firebombings of Tokyo, Dresden, (about 100,000 dead each including of course animals and infants obviously) (Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia)

Or the nuclear bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think that's not a complete parallel of every aspect, but it's parallel in certain aspects, even though of course it has several parts:
1) orders from above
2) knowingly killing all living creatures
3) context of war

But there is more to the situation when the orders are from God, of course. (though of course some might see the supreme general in charge or the president as 'god' for that choice/order, but that's not quite our situation)

Right?

Pause here and reply if you don't agree on those particular exactly equal similarities on those particular parts, which aren't the whole, but are not trivial.


While we have a next topic of great interest -- A good God would just reverse all the death, but it's a topic to discuss next, and this is a first question.

First, do you even agree that the nuclear attacks the U.S. did would be foreseen to kill all living mammals in the blast radius? (I don't actually myself see infants as somehow more valuable or innocent than 10 yr olds or 15 yr olds or typical adult mothers with small children...but that's another topic)

And do you think those nuclear attacks in that context of war were 100% wrong to do?

Was the U.S. basically immoral in WW2 in the big picture sense?

What's your view?

Why do you say nothing? This is in your Bible. How have you reconciled this with your belief that God is good?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Does it remind you of WWII and the United States? --
The U.S. firebombings of Tokyo, Dresden, (about 100,000 dead each including of course animals and infants obviously) (Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia)

Or the nuclear bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think that's not a complete parallel of every aspect, but it's parallel in certain aspects, even though of course it has several parts:
1) orders from above
2) knowingly killing all living creatures
3) context of war

But there is more to the situation when the orders are from God, of course. (though of course some might see the supreme general in charge or the president as 'god' for that choice/order, but that's not quite our situation)

Right?

Pause here and reply if you don't agree on those particular exactly equal similarities on those particular parts, which aren't the whole, but are not trivial.


While we have a next topic of great interest -- A good God would just reverse all the death, but it's a topic to discuss next, and this is a first question.

First, do you even agree that the nuclear attacks the U.S. did would be foreseen to kill all living mammals in the blast radius? (I don't actually myself see infants as somehow more valuable or innocent than 10 yr olds or 15 yr olds or typical adult mothers with small children...but that's another topic)

And do you think those nuclear attacks in that context of war were 100% wrong to do?

Was the U.S. basically immoral in WW2 in the big picture sense?

What's your view?

This all seems irrelevant. Did Harry Truman say God said so? Are you, like a previous poster, defending God on a tu quoque--humans do it too?