Which books belong in the New Testament?

[razeontherock]

We don't know who this James was, or whether he had any authority in the early church.

We know who James was, what he did before joining the Church, what his role in the Church was, when he died, and how. In short, we know a great deal about his life.

 

[doubtingmerle]

We know who James was, what he did before joining the Church, what his role in the Church was, when he died, and how. In short, we know a great deal about his life.

We know several people named James in the New Testament. We don't know if any of those Jameses was the one who wrote the book of James. James was a common name. For instance, two of the 12 disciples were named James.

We simply don't know which James wrote the book of James, whether he was an apostle, and whether he knew anything about the apostles.

He makes no mention of the life or teaching of Jesus on earth, so it is possible he had no firsthand knowledge of the earthly Jesus.

 

[razeontherock]

While you're thinking about it, think about what his contemporaries said

 

[doubtingmerle]

While you're thinking about it, think about what his contemporaries said

Certainly. Do you know of a single contemporary of James who mentioned anything about the book of James in the first century?

 

[razeontherock]

Certainly. Do you know of a single contemporary of James who mentioned anything about the book of James in the first century?

Yup. EVERYONE in the whole Church of Jerusalem. You know, the time period when ALL Christians were part of the Church of Jerusalem?

James was in charge of their Liturgy. It's still practiced today.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Yup. EVERYONE in the whole Church of Jerusalem. You know, the time period when ALL Christians were part of the Church of Jerusalem?

James was in charge of their Liturgy. It's still practiced today.

How do you know that it was this James who wrote the book of James? Can you find a single contemporary writing that says that the book of James was written by the James that was in charge of their Liturgy?

From Epistle of James .

the history of the canon speaks against James the Lord's brother as author of the Letter of James. Prior to 200 CE there is no solid evidence of the literary use of James. In the Muratorian Canon (ca. 200) James is missing, just as in Tertullian, and Eusebius (HE 2.23, 24b, 25) reports of James: 'This is the story of James. He is supposed to be the author of the first of the so-called "Catholic Letters," but let it be noted that its authenticity is doubted, since not many of the Elders have referred either to it or the so-called "Letter of Jude," which likewise has been counted among the 'Catholic Letters.' Still, we are aware that these two letters, like the others, have been read aloud in most of the churches.' The Letter of James began to be generally accepted only after 200 CE, cited for the first time as Scripture in Origen (Select Ps 30.6 [PG 12.1300]). The canonical status of James continued to be disputed, however, and did not attain general acceptance as a canonical document until very late. This would be an extraordinary development if James had really been written by James the brother of the Lord and this had been known in early Christianity.
​

So with nobody else able to find a contemporary witness to the authorship of James, why is it that we find you so amused that I know of no early written witness to the authorship of James?

 

[razeontherock]

So with nobody else able to find a contemporary witness to the authorship of James, why is it that we find you so amused that I know of no early written witness to the authorship of James?

Moving the goalposts. I never used the word "written." Why would you presume it even matters? Do you write down that you are left handed? (You are left-handed, right?) Seriously, common knowledge is not something we normally write down, or more importantly what is normal to us has no bearing on what was normal to them. For them it was normal to respect face to face spoken testimony from someone they knew and trusted, and to suspect something written as being a forgery since no one cared enough to present it in person.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Moving the goalposts. I never used the word "written." Why would you presume it even matters? Do you write down that you are left handed? (You are left-handed, right?) Seriously, common knowledge is not something we normally write down, or more importantly what is normal to us has no bearing on what was normal to them. For them it was normal to respect face to face spoken testimony from someone they knew and trusted, and to suspect something written as being a forgery since no one cared enough to present it in person.

OK, so you have no written evidence that anybody in the first century thought that a half-brother of Jesus wrote the book of James. You have only the assertion that this is what they said back then.

Excuse me, but how in the heck do you know that the folks in the first century were saying this, if not one person ever wrote it down?

Can you understand how some people would not accept it as meaningful evidence if you make undocumented claims that people were saying something in the first century? Where is your evidence that they said that?

 

[razeontherock]

These people did not live in a vacuum, nor did they evaporate. This is not some lost, ancient civilization we're talking about here.

 

[Lukaris]

Re James, the internal evidence in the NT is as follows from the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Now I quote from info I have read elsewhere that follows scripture where referenced. Paul describes James as being one of the persons the risen Christ showed himself to ( 1 corinthians 15:3-8), then later in 1 Corinthians (9:5) mentions he had been married & in Galatians (2:9 & 2:12) Paul lists James with Cephas (Peter) as the 3 pillars of the church..

Outside the NT the unity of St.James theology & st. Paul's is addressed by St. Clement of Rome to the Corinthians (ca. 95-100 AD). Although James is not named, the explicit theology of faith & works is clearly from the preaching of James. The fact that it was Clement who heard the preaching of St. Paul's justification by faith as a Roman shows he also knew the preaching of St. james & had to communicate this to the often wandering Corinthians to whom St. Paul always had to baby sit (& there are indications St.Paul wrote 2 other, now lost, epistles to them).

 

[doubtingmerle]

These people did not live in a vacuum, nor did they evaporate. This is not some lost, ancient civilization we're talking about here.

They didn't live in a vacuum, so therefore the book of James was written by the half-brother of Jesus?

I don't follow you logic.

By that logic, you could say they didn't live in a vacuum so therefore the Gospel of Peter was written by Peter.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Re James, the internal evidence in the NT is as follows from the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Now I quote from info I have read elsewhere that follows scripture where referenced. Paul describes James as being one of the persons the risen Christ showed himself to ( 1 corinthians 15:3-8), then later in 1 Corinthians (9:5) mentions he had been married & in Galatians (2:9 & 2:12) Paul lists James with Cephas (Peter) as the 3 pillars of the church..

Outside the NT the unity of St.James theology & st. Paul's is addressed by St. Clement of Rome to the Corinthians (ca. 95-100 AD). Although James is not named, the explicit theology of faith & works is clearly from the preaching of James. The fact that it was Clement who heard the preaching of St. Paul's justification by faith as a Roman shows he also knew the preaching of St. james & had to communicate this to the often wandering Corinthians to whom St. Paul always had to baby sit (& there are indications St.Paul wrote 2 other, now lost, epistles to them).

The question is not what this James did. The question is whether this James or some other James wrote the book of James.

 

[razeontherock]

They didn't live in a vacuum, so therefore the book of James was written by the half-brother of Jesus?

I don't follow you logic.

All the people in the Church James presided over, say that ... nm

 

[doubtingmerle]

All the people in the Church James presided over, say that ... nm

And if you repeat this over and over, will that make it true?

Do you have any evidence at all that "All the people in the Church James presided over, say..."?

 

[doubtingmerle]

All the people in the Church James presided over, say...

Since you seem to be informed about what all the people in the Church James presided at say, could you please tell us if they say that the Apocalypse of James was written by James the half-brother of Jesus also? Do they say the Infancy Gospel of James was written by him also? And do they say the Gospel of Thomas was written by Thomas, a twin brother of Jesus as claimed?

For it seems to me that the logic you use to validate the book of James would validate all of these books. And if it validates these three, then your logic would also validate all of these at this site.

It seems to me that logic that would validate everything is bad logic, for some books are obviously imitations that were not written by apostles.

 

[Lukaris]

The question is not what this James did. The question is whether this James or some other James wrote the book of James.

The very basis of doubt as to the letter of James was written by St. James (step) brother of the Lord (by Joseph) is directed at the role of works within salvation by faith. St. Paul preached salvation by faith in his letter to the Romans & later returned to the role of works within it in the 12th chapter but when many people read St. Paul & St. James they assume there is conflict but there really is none.

Since many perceive the preaching in the epistle of James in conflict with St. Paul a later date (usually 2nd cent.) is assigned to the epistle but how can this be when the same preaching is espoused in a section of the letter of St. Clement of Rome written before 100 AD?

Again you have to realize the formation of faith to attest to its consistency. I am not saying you will believe Christianity is true but the NT is our record of what we beleive to be God's revelation to us. St. Paul & St. James both wrote scripture but when some read them, they cannot reconcile their preaching but a section of Clement's letter addresses this very faith misunderstanding at the end of the apsotolic era before recorded doubts surfaced re James' epistle. considering that many upheavals occurred in the ancient Christian church & media was primitive it was likely that the same doubts would arise again & were also settled again according to the consistency of tradition.

This matter remained settled for centuries until Martin Luther raised the same mistaken doubts and although he probably knew of clement's letter in history, the actual letter did not resurface in the west until the 17th c. so he unfortunately did not understand the role of works within salvation by faith ( I mean no major criticism of Luther here, I can read all this info online, he could not. life is easier for me, it was not for him).

 

[razeontherock]

Since you seem to be informed about what all the people in the Church James presided at say, could you please tell us if they say that the Apocalypse of James was written by James the half-brother of Jesus also? Do they say the Infancy Gospel of James was written by him also? And do they say the Gospel of Thomas was written by Thomas, a twin brother of Jesus as claimed?

For it seems to me that the logic you use to validate the book of James would validate all of these books.

In response to the part I bolded - why? I see no logical connection to enable that conclusion.

Instead, if you build on what you already know:

some books are obviously imitations that were not written by apostles.

You would answer most of your own questions.

 

[doubtingmerle]

For it seems to me that the logic you use to validate the book of James would validate all of these books.

In response to the part I bolded - why? I see no logical connection to enable that conclusion.

You made an argument that the book of James was written by James, the half-brother of Jesus. I could use the exact same arguement to show that the Infancy Gospel of James was written by the same James, and the Gospel of Thomas was written by the twin of Jesus.

If you think not, why is your argument valid for the book of James, but not for the Gospel of James?

Instead, if you build on what you already know:

some books are obviously imitations that were not written by apostles.

You would answer most of your own questions.

Some books are obviously not written by the claimed author. Some books probably are not written by the claimed author.

Scholars agree that the book of James very likely was not written by the half-brother of Jesus.

 

[razeontherock]

You made an argument that the book of James was written by James, the half-brother of Jesus. I could use the exact same arguement to show that the Infancy Gospel of James was written by the same James, and the Gospel of Thomas was written by the twin of Jesus.

No, you can't use the argument that gnostic writings were used in the early Churches. Sorry, no cookie for you.

Why on earth would anyone choose to go along with modern scholars vs the early Church, re: matters of the early Church?

 

[doubtingmerle]

The very basis of doubt as to the letter of James was written by St. James (step) brother of the Lord (by Joseph) is directed at the role of works within salvation by faith.

The problem is that the book of James never claims to be written by a half-brother of Jesus. Per the link I gave earlier, the content of the book of James is not consistant with what one would expect from a writing by a half-brother of Jesus. Those are the reasons that I think somebody else wrote this.

But now that you bring it up, yes, James does contradict Paul.

Since many perceive the preaching in the epistle of James in conflict with St. Paul a later date (usually 2nd cent.) is assigned to the epistle but how can this be when the same preaching is espoused in a section of the letter of St. Clement of Rome written before 100 AD?

Most people date James to the first century. The claim is that it was probably written by somebody that was neither an apostle nor a half-brother of Jesus.

I am not saying you will believe Christianity is true but the NT is our record of what we beleive to be God's revelation to us.

That may be.

But having a set of books that you believe to be God's revelation does not prove that every book in that list is God's revelation.

This matter remained settled for centuries until Martin Luther raised the same mistaken doubts and although he probably knew of clement's letter in history, the actual letter did not resurface in the west until the 17th c. so he unfortunately did not understand the role of works within salvation by faith

Good point. Even Martin Luther agreed that James did not belong in the New Testament.