Which Abominations are OK?

HARK! · Jun 2, 2020

Tra Phull said:
Eat whatever is sold in the SHAMBLES (whatever those are) unless it causes brethren/sistern to stumble.

Again this pertains to meat that might have been offered up to idols. Don't ask.

HARK! · Jun 2, 2020

miknik5 said:
Everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial

Everything? What did Paul mean by this?

(CLV) 1Co 10:21
You can not drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You can not be partaking of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Is it permissible to dine at both tables?

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Jun 2, 2020

HARK! said:
Right out of the gate, this verse speaks of eating with unwashed hands. There is no prohibition from cover to cover, in the Bible, of eating with unwashed hands. I didn't investigate the rest of your claims; as clearly your top claim is false.

Matt 15- Says that what goes into a man does not defile him(Matt 15:11,17) only that which comes out(Matt 15:11,18,19,20) he spoke in parables, that were shut up in their understanding to the people( Matt 15:15,16), so as not to break the law none understood what he spoke(Matt 15:15,16,10).

Mark 7- Any food/Meat that goes into a man does not defile him(Mark 7:15,18-19) only that which comes out defiles a man(Mark 7:15,20-23) he spoke in Parables that were shut up in their understanding to people(Mark 7:18-19) none understood what he spoke.

Christ did three things here.

First we need to look at what was the original subject brought up by the Pharisees(when they first addressed Christ and his Apostles), two things were being spoken of Defilement and the tradition of eating with unwashed hands. Two things, not just one.

A. This is the portion where he shows that the tradition was fulfilled in New testament law.
Matt 15:20,15,16
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 7:6-9,13,17-18
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

B. This is the Portion that shows that the Mosaic commandment(dietary law) was fulfilled in New Testament law.

Matt 15:11,17
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

Mark 7:15,18-19
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Meats in the greek is:
Strongs 1033
Broma
meat, food.
From the base of bibrosko; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law -- meat, victuals.

C. This is the portion that defines what defiles a man in New testament Law.

Matt 15:11,18-19
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mark 7:15,20-23
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The original issue was eating with unwashed hands but also defilement. Portion A speaks of the tradition(eating with unwashed hands). But after answering this first issue Christ went beyond the first part of the discussion discussion(tradition of defilement by unwashed hands) and said that not only was the tradition(eating with unwashed hands defiling a man) done but also was the Law that said food in general could defile a man(Mosaic Dietary law). Then showing that the reason for this was that food only comes out to drought when purged by the belly and cannot enter into a man's heart. Thirdly(C) he showed that in the New law God would judge men, not by what we ate(from without), but by what came out from within us. From within our heart comes defilement. Can unclean meat enter into our hearts? Can unclean meat proceed out from our heart? No it cannot.

Tone · Jun 2, 2020

HARK! said:
That might depend on whether or not we can take Paul at his word. Paul declares that he is obedient to YHWH's law. I trust him on that; so I frame the rest of what he says in that context.

You don't believe there is a difference between sinning by using another human being for lustful purposes (instead of seeking their salvation out of love) and simply eating certain animal flesh?

I recommend the Biblical diet to everyone as it is the best possible diet for the human body.

I am hesitant to say that those who do eat unclean animals are in gross unrepentant sin.

Der Alte · Jun 2, 2020

HARK! said:
This verse speaks of eating with unwashed hands, not of eating what YHWH has declared abominable.

Gregory Thaumaturgus Canon I
For the apostle says, “Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them.” (1Co_6:13) But the Saviour also, who cleanseth all meats, says, “Not that which goeth into a man defileth the man, but that which cometh out.” (Mat_15:11)

Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. Book XI.
For if “not that which entereth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which proceedeth out of the mouth,” (Mat_15:11) and especially when, according to Mark, the Saviour said these things “making all meats clean,” (Mar_7:19) manifestly we are not defiled when we eat those things which the Jews who desire to be in bondage to the letter of the law declare to be unclean, but we are then defiled when, whereas our lips ought to be bound with perception and we ought “to make for them what we call a balance and weight,” (Ecclesiasticus 28:25) we speak offhand and discuss matters we ought not, from which there comes to us the spring of sins.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 2, 2020

HARK! said:
So in which ways do you apply the word abomination, accordingly, to the various places it can be found in scripture? By what measure do you apply varying definitions?

I tend to focus on applying Philippians 4:4-8 due to the promise in verse 9 in terms of application. However, I'll give you an example.

These are the words for abomination in the King James Version of the bible, click on the Hyperlinks to access the word, and the verses it's used in.
8441
6292
8263
8262
0887
8251
946 (Greek)

I'd recommend to take a look, since it doesn't seem like one word is being used in all the passages.

Tone · Jun 2, 2020

Der Alte said:
the Jews who desire to be in bondage to the letter of the law declare to be unclean

I think this shows some of the bias present in the early church. It can be scientifically shown that the Biblical diet is best for the human body,which shouldn't be a surprise since it was the Creator Who prescribed it. So, it isn't/wasn't rebellious Jews who "declare" these animals as unfit to eat, it is simply a truth.

HARK! · Jun 2, 2020

Michael Collum said:
These are the words for abomination in the King James Version of the bible, click on the Hyperlinks to access the word, and the verses it's used in.
8441
6292
8263
8262
0887
8251
946 (Greek)

I'd recommend to take a look, since it doesn't seem like one word is being used in all the passages.

Good work! Thank you for this contribution. I'm going to save this work to my files. It is well worthy of study.

Der Alte · Jun 2, 2020

Tone said:
I think this shows some of the bias present in the early church. It can be scientifically shown that the Biblical diet is best for the human body,which shouldn't be a surprise since it was the Creator Who prescribed it. So, it isn't/wasn't rebellious Jews who "declare" these animals as unfit to eat, it is simply a truth.

Being "scientifically best" or not is not a salvation issue. Remember that anti- bias began with the Jews. When we first encounter Saul/Paul he is persecuting Christians.

HARK! · Jun 2, 2020

Der Alte said:
Commentary

Enough said.

Tone · Jun 2, 2020

Der Alte said:
Being "scientifically best" or not is not a salvation issue. Remember that anti- bias began with the Jews. When we first encounter Saul/Paul he is persecuting Christians.

I never said it was salvific, although, a Biblical diet can save someone's physical health.

I wouldn't say that bias began with the Jews.

Hammster · Jun 2, 2020

I’m not an Israelite, so I’ll eat shrimp.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Jun 2, 2020

The Answer Is Acts Chapter 15

Acts 15 - NKJV

• The Council at Jerusalem
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me. Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.' "Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement. Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words. And after they had stayed there for a time, they were sent back with greetings from the brethren to the apostles. However, it seemed good to Silas to remain there. Paul and Barnabas also remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

.

Der Alte · Jun 2, 2020

HARK! said:
Enough said.

Wrong as usual. Commentary is when a present day scholar gives his unsupported opinion of what the scriptures "really say."
Quoting Origen, Gregory Thaumaturgus and other ECF is not commentary, it is the historical record of the faith and practice of the early church.

HARK! · Jun 2, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
The Answer Is Acts Chapter 15

Acts 15 - NKJV

• The Council at Jerusalem
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me. Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.' "Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement. Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words. And after they had stayed there for a time, they were sent back with greetings from the brethren to the apostles. However, it seemed good to Silas to remain there. Paul and Barnabas also remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

.

The word abomination isn't present in this passage.

HARK! · Jun 2, 2020

Hammster said:
I’m not an Israelite, so I’ll eat shrimp.

Is that to say that eating shrimp is not an abomination of one is not an Israelite? If so, how would that abomination differ from other abominations?

Hammster · Jun 2, 2020

HARK! said:
Is that to say that eating shrimp is not an abomination of one is not an Israelite? If so, how would that abomination differ from other abominations?

It depends. You mentioned homosexuality in the OP. Is that mentioned in the NT? Why, yes it is.

Homosexuality is a sin because it goes against God’s purpose for marriage. Eating shrimp was a sin for Israel because God wanted a separate people.

Der Alte · Jun 2, 2020

Tone said:
...I wouldn't say that bias began with the Jews.

That seems to contradict scripture.

Mat_10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat_23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city
Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them
Luk_12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
Luk_21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake
Joh_16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Act_7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act_22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Act_26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
1Co_15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Gal_1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Tone · Jun 2, 2020

Hammster said:
I’m not an Israelite, so I’ll eat shrimp.

Are you sure you are not Israel?

Tone · Jun 2, 2020

Der Alte said:
That seems to contradict scripture.

Mat_10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat_23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city
Mar_13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them
Luk_12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
Luk_21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake
Joh_16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Act_7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act_22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Act_26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
1Co_15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Gal_1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

He was talking about what unbelieving Jews would do to believers (including Jews). Still, this is not the beginning of bias...that predates Jews...or any other nation/tribe.

Which Abominations are OK?

שמע

שמע

Well-Known Member

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Carpe Chaos

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

Carpe Chaos

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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