Whether God Exists I guess

[Discussion]

Spiritual experiences, are excused by atheists, with 'hallucinations', 'low standards for proof' 'drugs' or mental illness.
But they can be more real than anything else, and when things keep happening with God, denying that would be silly.
The things Paul wrote about the Spirit in the new testament we can experience too.

But unbelievers are going to unbelief i guess.

And believer are going to believe I guess, I also find these to be best explained by psychology rather than the Christian God as there are so many other religious people who aren't Christian who get experiences from their God and surely you'd have to accept their testimony to be as strong as your own.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And believer are going to believe I guess, I also find these to be best explained by psychology rather than the Christian God as there are so many other religious people who aren't Christian who get experiences from their God and surely you'd have to accept their testimony to be as strong as your own.

"Religious experience" isn't the epistemic litmus test of historical truth, whether biblical or non-biblical. Some people think they "experience" a flat-earth, too...................that doesn't make the Earth flat.

 

[Discussion]

"Religious experience" isn't the epistemic litmus test of historical truth, whether biblical or non-biblical. Some people think they "experience" a flat-earth, too...................that doesn't make the Earth flat.

Do you agree that; religious experiences (even ones own) don't necessarily point to God, the growth of Christianity doesn't necessarily point to God and the structure/laws of the universe don't necessarily point to God?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Do you agree that; religious experiences (even ones own) don't necessarily point to God, the growth of Christianity doesn't necessarily point to God and the structure/laws of the universe don't necessarily point to God?

Yes, I agree that there is no causal "necessity" in religious experiences, in the social growth of Christianity, or in the structure/laws of the universe, especially not for the sorts of evidences we'd recognize as compelling in nature.

But the converse of these propositions would be true as well, wouldn't you agree?

 

[All Becomes New]

OP, have you heard of Gary Habermas's Minimal Facts for the Resurrection? This not only gets you to "God exists" but also gets you to "Jesus is God."

 

[jacks]

I am at present an agnostic who is seeking Christ, yet I am lacking reason to, and I was hoping this might help me in my search.

Welcome to CF!

You've started with a great question, that all thinking people have to address. I don't have any idea of what may convince you of God's existences, so I'll just make a couple of general comments. First it isn't a difficult hidden thing you're seeking. God is all around you and within you. I see you've already looked up many arguments for God's existence, but so far none presently ring true for you. That's not unusual or a bad position to be in. Just keep asking questions! The greatest barrier to new knowledge is thinking one already knows. Use your same questioning attitude with other explanations of life and our place within it. As a bad example: do you really not have questions about the certainty of the Big Bang and random chemicals reactions making us what we are today? I'm not arguing these points, just pointing out that much of what we believe may fall below some level of certainty.

Finally, (though I know it is counter intuitive) ask God to reveal Himself to you. Yes, say a prayer, what can it hurt?

 

[TruthInLight]

To know if God exists, you will need to have the desire to learn.

I'll also say that there are things in this world that are lies or do things to deny its creator, God.

 

[Apple Sky]

OP, have you heard of Gary Habermas's Minimal Facts for the Resurrection? This not only gets you to "God exists" but also gets you to "Jesus is God."

Yes we have Gary & we also have five historical facts ......

Five Historic Facts Of The Gospels ...

1. Pilate Stone The Pilate Stone is a limestone block with a partially intact inscription found in Caesarea Maritima, Israel. It's significant because it contains a reference to Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea, and it provides archaeological evidence for his existence and role in...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Discussion]

OP, have you heard of Gary Habermas's Minimal Facts for the Resurrection? This not only gets you to "God exists" but also gets you to "Jesus is God."

I have infact heard of them (and agree with the facts) but do not believe they get you to any kind of ressurection.

 

[Discussion]

Yes, I agree that there is no causal "necessity" in religious experiences, in the social growth of Christianity, or in the structure/laws of the universe, especially not for the sorts of evidences we'd recognize as compelling in nature.

But the converse of these propositions would be true as well, wouldn't you agree?

Oh of course I wouldn't say they disprove but as they don't compel me to believe in God I don't see why I should take on the unnecessary assumption that God exists to explain them if I don't have to.

 

[Discussion]

Welcome to CF!

You've started with a great question, that all thinking people have to address. I don't have any idea of what may convince you of God's existences, so I'll just make a couple of general comments. First it isn't a difficult hidden thing you're seeking. God is all around you and within you. I see you've already looked up many arguments for God's existence, but so far none presently ring true for you. That's not unusual or a bad position to be in. Just keep asking questions! The greatest barrier to new knowledge is thinking one already knows. Use your same questioning attitude with other explanations of life and our place within it. As a bad example: do you really not have questions about the certainty of the Big Bang and random chemicals reactions making us what we are today? I'm not arguing these points, just pointing out that much of what we believe may fall below some level of certainty.

Finally, (though I know it is counter intuitive) ask God to reveal Himself to you. Yes, say a prayer, what can it hurt?

Thank you very much for your message, I don't really have doubts about evolution or the Big Bang theory no (I know you said they were bad examples) but while there may be things I don't understand it doesn't mean I should posit an unobservable and untestable (at least in the scientific sense) God to explain these things.

Thank you again, I shall try praying to God to reveal himself (I have tried before but shall again).

 

[Discussion]

To know if God exists, you will need to have the desire to learn.

I'll also say that there are things in this world that are lies or do things to deny its creator, God.

Thank you very much, I shall say I made this post in an attempt to learn so that is a good start.

 

[Discussion]

Yes we have Gary & we also have five historical facts ......

Five Historic Facts Of The Gospels ...

1. Pilate Stone The Pilate Stone is a limestone block with a partially intact inscription found in Caesarea Maritima, Israel. It's significant because it contains a reference to Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea, and it provides archaeological evidence for his existence and role in...

www.christianforums.com

I have no problem accepting Pontius Pilate, Caiaphas, Jesus and the bible exist/existed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh of course I wouldn't say they disprove but as they don't compel me to believe in God I don't see why I should take on the unnecessary assumption that God exists to explain them if I don't have to.

The key is in the epistemological "how" involved in arriving at the conclusion that a person may "have to" posit Jesus Christ as the answer............ ................. this is the Way in which I arrive at God: I first come to value Jesus of Nazareth as a historical personage, and then, through understanding of additional theological implications, I then come to value the idea of there being a God. I don't look for 'cosmological' and 'natural' explanations first before I look at Jesus. No, for me, it's Jesus first, then God,........... or bust into atheism.

I will say, too, that much of the perspective and outcome here depends on "who" it is you choose or deem worthy to lead you in your epistemological appraisals and construction of a worldview.

For me personally, I find my escape hatch through various considerations found within The Philosophy of History, with a dash of Hermeneutics on the side for better measure.

Lastly, one needs to consider the overuse and over reliance upon Occam's Razor. Sometimes it is blunted by a Gettier problem, as is minimally demonstrated in the following article:

​

Science, Ockham’s Razor & God | Issue 115 | Philosophy Now

David Glass and Mark McCartney say Ockham’s razor doesn’t cut it with God.

philosophynow.org

 

[All Becomes New]

I have infact heard of them (and agree with the facts) but do not believe they get you to any kind of ressurection.

What is your explanation then?

 

[Discussion]

What is your explanation then?

I personally would use the minimal witnesses hypothesis as an alternative explanation of Jesus's resurection which claims:

• Only a handful of individuals (maybe even just one or two) had some kind of powerful experience.
• These experiences could have been visions, hallucinations, dreams, or misinterpretations of normal events under conditions of grief, stress, or religious expectation.
• These initial experiences were sincerely believed and shared with others.
• Over time, the belief spread, was reinforced, and became part of early Christian teaching.

For a far better explanation: The “Minimal Witnesses” Naturalistic Hypothesis

As for my epistemological praxis; I would say I base what I believe on things I know e.g. sense data (mostly reliable). I am somewhat unfamiliar with having to define this sort of thing so excuse me for stopping there feel free to ask follow-ups to that. My kinda chain of reasoning for God not existing would be. I accept that I exist (not getting into this) --> I accept the physical universe exists as I can see it (not getting into this). From here I have never seen a physical reason to accept anything beyond the physical exists (which is all that I can observe therefore is my entire data set), therefore I have no reason to accept God exists.

I already explained earlier on this thread.

 

[jacks]

...but while there may be things I don't understand it doesn't mean I should posit an unobservable and untestable (at least in the scientific sense) God to explain these things.

I agree, an automatic assumption that God exists, shouldn't be the default, however, it should remain a possibility.
You seem to have a great, open attitude to your search. I was raised a hard core atheist and it took me years even to get to the point you're at. Although I was respectful to theists, I really believed they were all deluded and clung to their beliefs based on ignorance and desperation. My personal journey to God was convoluted, sporadic and would be impossible for anyone else to follow. This is why I said: I have no idea of what may convince you of God's existences. It is a very personal journey. What I do see is you're further down the path than I was. (For instance it never would have occurred to me to post on a Christian Forum and ask questions.) My only advice is what you seem to be doing already; asking questions with an open mind.

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

Matthew 7:7-8

 

[All Becomes New]

I already explained earlier on this thread.

That does not explain Paul or James coming to faith. It does not explain the empty tomb.

 

[Discussion]

That does not explain Paul or James coming to faith. It does not explain the empty tomb.

Could you read the article attached please? Or if you're not a reading person this video would work.

 

[Discussion]

I agree, an automatic assumption that God exists, shouldn't be the default, however, it should remain a possibility.
You seem to have a great, open attitude to your search. I was raised a hard core atheist and it took me years even to get to the point you're at. Although I was respectful to theists, I really believed they were all deluded and clung to their beliefs based on ignorance and desperation. My personal journey to God was convoluted, sporadic and would be impossible for anyone else to follow. This is why I said: I have no idea of what may convince you of God's existences. It is a very personal journey. What I do see is you're further down the path than I was. (For instance it never would have occurred to me to post on a Christian Forum and ask questions.) My only advice is what you seem to be doing already; asking questions with an open mind.

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

Matthew 7:7-8

Well thank you very much I think I agree with everything you've said here. Would you be able to be provide any kind of quick list for things you'd reccomend?

Anyway have a great day.