Where will a dead Christian go before Christ's Second coming?

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Where will a dead Christian go before Christ's Second coming?
People like St. Paul etc, where are they now?
Are they in spiritual form?
Being in heaven with Christ?

To Gan Eden (Paradise) or Gehenna (Purgatory), and thence maybe to Gan Eden.

At the end of the world, the spirit will come back into the body and be a resurrected soul - and then face final judgment and either walk through the gates of the City of God, therein to dwell, or be cast into the flames of the Lake of Fire for the second death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The cherished proof text of soul-sleep. There are problems with it however.

First the context is "under the sun". Second some argue Solomon was agnostic/atheist in his writing Ecclesiastes. Third it is followed by "neither have they any more reward", but we know the dead do have a reward.

Taking these into consideration, a literal interpretation is not correct. Solomon is not teaching spiritual truths, but talking from the perspective of "under the sun", an atheist. You must read the whole book, or at least the chapter.

The bigger problem with it is that Jesus recounts in detail the story of the rich man and Lazarus, and places the rich man, conscious, in Gehenna, speaking with Abraham, who is also conscious, with Lazarus present, on opposite sides of a black chasm.

This is a parable, yes, but a parable that teaches the continuance of the spirit after death, and consciousness, and a certain judgment already in place, now, before the end of the world - and it fits hand in glove with Jesus' references to Gehenna and Paradise afterwards.

Truth is, the ancient Hebrews had not yet had life after death revealed to them. That good news is not clearly revealed until Jesus. In the Maccabees there is clearly the belief in the resurrection already, a belief that is not clearly spelled out in the older Scriptures. But the ancient Jews of Hebrew Old Testament times did not know what went on in Sheol. It was never revealed to them and thus is not contained in the Bible.

The Sadduccees were the priestly class - they knew their Scriptures as well as anybody in Judaism, and they didn't believe in the resurrection at all. So it is fair to say that the big reveal of life after death is not discernibly conveyed in the Old Testament. That IS the Good News that Jesus brings: that the end is not the end at all.

If one takes the views written in Kings, and then puts them alongside of what Jesus said in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, and in the other things that Jesus said, and what John saw in the Revelation, one realizes that the author of Kings simply had not been revealed the details of life after death. OR one faces a direct and irreconcilable conflict within Scripture, and one simply chooses whether to believe the Old Testament or the New.

The conflict exists. The question is what to do about it. Me? I go with what Jesus said, because he was God, and the author of Kings was not.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The bigger problem with it is that Jesus recounts in detail the story of the rich man and Lazarus, and places the rich man, conscious, in Gehenna, speaking with Abraham, who is also conscious, with Lazarus present, on opposite sides of a black chasm.

This is a parable, yes, but a parable that teaches the continuance of the spirit after death, and consciousness, and a certain judgment already in place, now, before the end of the world - and it fits hand in glove with Jesus' references to Gehenna and Paradise afterwards.

Truth is, the ancient Hebrews had not yet had life after death revealed to them. That good news is not clearly revealed until Jesus. In the Maccabees there is clearly the belief in the resurrection already, a belief that is not clearly spelled out in the older Scriptures. But the ancient Jews of Hebrew Old Testament times did not know what went on in Sheol. It was never revealed to them and thus is not contained in the Bible.

The Sadduccees were the priestly class - they knew their Scriptures as well as anybody in Judaism, and they didn't believe in the resurrection at all. So it is fair to say that the big reveal of life after death is not discernibly conveyed in the Old Testament. That IS the Good News that Jesus brings: that the end is not the end at all.

If one takes the views written in Kings, and then puts them alongside of what Jesus said in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, and in the other things that Jesus said, and what John saw in the Revelation, one realizes that the author of Kings simply had not been revealed the details of life after death. OR one faces a direct and irreconcilable conflict within Scripture, and one simply chooses whether to believe the Old Testament or the New.

The conflict exists. The question is what to do about it. Me? I go with what Jesus said, because he was God, and the author of Kings was not.
There may be some conflict, but it can not come from Ecclesiastes. I mean read on in verse 9 "all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days." This is not the good news. This is apathy and discontentment, questioning God and life.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There may be some conflict, but it can not come from Ecclesiastes. I mean read on in verse 9 "all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days." This is not the good news. This is apathy and discontentment, questioning God and life.

Yes, life "under the sun". Of course Sheol isn't "under the sun", it's under the earth. I was referring more to the line from 1 Kings which states that the dead sleep and know nothing. That is not true. That was what the Jews thought, at the time they wrote 1 Kings, but there was a greater reveal coming from God, the Good News, from Jesus, that death is not the end, that we live on and will be alive again in flesh and blood.

We can't know that from the Old Testament because not only doesn't it say that, but it says the opposite. The Law of Sinai for example, the whole Jewish Law, there is nothing in it that gives the promise of life after death or eternal life if it is obeyed. All that God ever promised the Hebrews for obedience to the Law of Moses was a secure farm in the land of Israel in this life. He never said one single word about the afterlife, or any sort of eternal reward for obedience, in the entire Torah. The Sinai Covenant was an earthly land covenant between God and a tribe: obey this law, and I will give you this land. Disobey, and I will take this land away from you. There is no revelation of "Obey this law, and you shall have eternal life with me in Heaven." God never revealed life after death to the Hebrews of Sinai.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, life "under the sun". Of course Sheol isn't "under the sun", it's under the earth. I was referring more to the line from 1 Kings which states that the dead sleep and know nothing. That is not true. That was what the Jews thought, at the time they wrote 1 Kings, but there was a greater reveal coming from God, the Good News, from Jesus, that death is not the end, that we live on and will be alive again in flesh and blood.

We can't know that from the Old Testament because not only doesn't it say that, but it says the opposite. The Law of Sinai for example, the whole Jewish Law, there is nothing in it that gives the promise of life after death or eternal life if it is obeyed. All that God ever promised the Hebrews for obedience to the Law of Moses was a secure farm in the land of Israel in this life. He never said one single word about the afterlife, or any sort of eternal reward for obedience, in the entire Torah. The Sinai Covenant was an earthly land covenant between God and a tribe: obey this law, and I will give you this land. Disobey, and I will take this land away from you. There is no revelation of "Obey this law, and you shall have eternal life with me in Heaven." God never revealed life after death to the Hebrews of Sinai.
Agree 100%. Very good.
 
Upvote 0

sheila51

Member
Nov 21, 2016
7
3
59
Greenville
✟15,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Where will a dead Christian go before Christ's Second coming?
People like St. Paul etc, where are they now?
Are they in spiritual form?
Being in heaven with Christ?

They go to heaven just as lazereth and the thief on cross


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sheila51

Member
Nov 21, 2016
7
3
59
Greenville
✟15,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 21:4 says "There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain".

Perhaps there will be levels of enjoyment and satisfaction however!

In heaven no pain


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Agree
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,350
14,508
Vancouver
Visit site
✟336,589.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I like to compare Matthew 18:21-35 thrown into debtors prison against Luke 16:1-13 the unjust steward and see it as a good indication that some will get prayed into heaven, but probably as a part of the nations. re: Matthew 25. I think there will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth in that area of the prelude to eternity. Specially when they have to take Law 101 all over again before given the discision to choose grace.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

seeking633

Kingdom Seeker
Feb 24, 2013
105
28
Canada
✟11,215.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Heaven and hell are real places peopke go to rite after death jesus spike of them both as real places

Oh yes, I agree Heaven is clearly referenced in Scripture, but Hell remains a construct originating from ambiguity and improper context.
 
Upvote 0

sheila51

Member
Nov 21, 2016
7
3
59
Greenville
✟15,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Oh yes, I agree Heaven is clearly referenced in Scripture, but Hell remains a construct originating from ambiguity and improper context.

No hell is a real place jesus spoke of many times people go there forever that reject God


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0