Hi John C2,
Thank you for the time spent on responding. I wish you had not tried to sidetrack the conversation, however.
All these things to which you refer is Jesus as
an adult when he already had His disciples and had begun His Galilean Ministry. BUT none of it is addressing or answering my initial question concerning His ages between 13 and 29.
But i will address it and respond to it all. This time.
Please, do not bother to respond to my hypothetical questions in this long response.
Many of them are not meant to be answered.
And enjoy the music videos. They do serve a purpose.
Let me begin.
We can infer he must have been earning his Rabbi credentials.
His ACTUAL day job was an officially credentialed itinerant Rabbi who made his living by preaching, teaching, and healing.
Infer? You mean, you are offering conjecture without any proof. That's what it is without proof - conjecture.
And since when did rabbis heal?
Do you really believe that Jesus taught at a "job for a wage" to earn a living? That was His profession? How much money did He earn per speech, then?
Hmm, so Jesus was a professional rabbi working for money to support himself? You must be confusing Jesus with a different prophet.
Jesus gave to the poor, healed the sick, raised the dead, fed multitudes of people fish, bread and wine and he never even asked for so much as a tip. What are you talking about!
I see you can agree that He was an
itinerant (one who travels around). But not too far away, because He had to be responsible and pay his taxes for the all that money He earned as a "working rabbi for pay"?
Listen to yourself.
Notice he was allowed to teach in synagogues and in The Temple. Jesus was also allowed officially to take and train disciples. This requires official credentials and bona-fides..... As such - he must have studied under another recognized Rabbi and received official letters certifying he had earned his credentials from that Rabbi (or whatever was required)...
"Notice" where in the Bible or anywhere else for that matter?
Notice what? You seem to know where to look, so, please, show me what i should
notice.
Oh, so Jesus had official papers allowing Him to teach?
Wow! He was so lucky to have official papers but i wonder why they killed Him - i mean, c'mon, He had official papers giving Him legal permission to teach and say He was the Son of God - oh, oh and a rabbi?
Show me where it says he was given permission.
Being allowed to speak publically does not require official permission or a certification, whatsoever.
Is there a verse in which it says 'And then, Jesus was given an official paper giving Him permission to speak as a (paid) rabbi (or whatever)'?
It doesn't exist in Jesus' case.
Was He "allowed" to preach in temples?...or wasn't He simply tolerated by the "powers that were, back in the day", to speak - until it went too far and lead to His crucifixion?
Seems to me if He was "allowed" to teach in the temples then that would suggest that He was accepted by the authorities. But He was not accepted, therefore, He was given no permission to "teach" as a rabbi.
What bothered the authorities was that He was referred to by His followers as the Son of God.
Things were getting way out of hand and they murdered Him for what He said.
Pilate's Dream - Jesus Christ Superstar (1973) <-----Start here.
We don’t know where Jesus earned his credentials - but we know that He did or they would not have allowed him to teach in The Temple or to officially take and train disciples.
Yes, you very correct when you say, "We
don’t know where Jesus earned his credentials".
Does the Son of God
need to earn credentials - He's the
Son of God! What are you talking about!
And i'll say again that He was given
no official permission to teach or train disciples. Saying what you say is PURE conjecture.
Show me where He was given official permission to teach and train disciples.
Show me where the Pharisees called Him or referred to Him as an official rabbi. As far as they were concerned, He was a heretic, a criminal worthy of being put to death - and He was put death as a heretic.
His followers called Him rabbi. But is the Son of God a mere rabbi? No.
Matthew 7:28-29
Matthew 16:15-16
Did Jesus claim to be a rabbi? I thought He claimed to be the Son of God.
He was not crucified for being called a rabbi but for people saying that he was the Son of God, and His referring to Heaven as "His Kingdom, not of this earth".
Thomas isn’t scripture and it was penned by Gnostics who were trying to show Jesus was not actually a human but rather a god. As such - I think we can safely reject it as authoritative on this matter..
It is believed to have been penned by Gnostics.
Define scripture.
One definition is, "Something written".
I see you're suggesting that it's heresy or Gnosticism to say Jesus is the Son of God - either now or back then. Thomas was moved to write something that God wanted him to document - Jesus' pre-adolescent childhood.
Maybe the Second Council decided that Jesus was a heretic because Thomas wrote what He did as a child, and THAT's why you say what you say?
Thomas' Gospel was tossed to the side by the Second Council. I've read it. Anyone can find it online. It's really quite interesting.
I often wonder what Jesus would have thought about the decisions made by the various Councils of Nicaea who had decided on which idols we should worship and which scriptures should be canonized. I don't think Jesus authorizes idol worship. Do you? They did. And now, we worship idols.
I wonder if Jesus would have eventually called His Ministry "Christianity".
Jesus never claimed to be a Christian. That name came much later.
He followed the Old Testament as a Hebrew.
He was preaching something NEW and completely different, though, and mixed His Word into the "soup".
I wonder if Hebrew Jesus celebrated Christmas or Channuka. Lemme think now (taps forehead and thinks). He was a Hebrew...hmmm. He is the Christ...hmmm.
If people want to be like Jesus, maybe we should all celebrate Channukah instead of Christmas. The Bible does not instruct us to celebrate Christmas.
Why should we reject Thomas' scripture if it is an inspired "scripture"? I don't care what the 2nd Council decided. The various Councils' decisions were more like business decisions for the business of..."churching", instead of to spread the Ministry of (not for profit or personal gain) Jesus Christ.
Do people agree that we follow the Nicene Councils' decisions just to respect the bishops of the Council, and maybe to satisfy the churches who PREACH FOR MONEY and hold out the donation basket a few times during Sunday mass so they can just horde it instead of feeding the poor with the money they EARN, so the church can continue getting richer and richer?
Matthew 19:24
A stark contrast to the next photo of the pope.
the last supper - Google Search:
Do you think the popes will be in welcomed into Heaven?
pope's gold - Google Search:
A song i wrote.
The miracles of Jesus as a child in the Infancy Gospels of Thomas are blasphemy because the Council said so? I don't think so. I think it only serves to give further proof of His greatness. All little boys are naughty at times.
The Infancy Gospels of Thomas was written in the very early days - the 1st or 2nd century AD.
I offer that the Council didn't want people to know that Jesus, as a child, was very mischievous and very much, for lack of a better word, a "brat" who toyed with His supernatural powers. It says that Jesus actually did evil deeds with His powers - he was just a child, and we know how children can be quite mean because they lack the understanding of adults. This could have been used to show children that even Jesus was a child, to try to make children aware and try to help them grasp the understanding of murder and not being able to revive someone who was murdered because only Jesus can revive the dead. But no, the book was tossed to the side. Nothing was used. But yet, snippets of the Book of Enoch were used and slightly referred to in the Bible. That's one scary book, that Enoch-book.
I suppose everyone believes (for some odd reason) that Jesus only obtained supernatural powers to do miracles after the age of 29-years-old when he started His (for profit) Ministry as a "professional rabbi for pay" as you've suggested?
It’s easy to find scriptures where Jesus is called “Rabbi”. Take John 3 where Nichodemus refers to Jesus with the specific title “Rabbi”. Notice Jesus is not referred to as a teacher using the Greek word for teacher but the specific Hebrew title Rabbi...
He was called many things ie: rabbi, teacher, Lord, heretic, criminal, blasphemer, dangerous. He never called Himself a rabbi, though. Maybe you want the Son of God to claim to be a rabbi.
Also notice Jesus challenge to the Temple Leadership in Matt 26, Mark 14, and Luke 22 - “I sat daily with you teaching in the temple and you never arrested me there”. Jesus had the appropriate credentials to legally teach in the temple and was recognized by the leadership as such.
It did not mean the authorities we not taking notice of what He was doing and saying, and the crowds of people surrounding Him and calling Him the Son of God.
The authorities didn't care if Jesus spoke to the people, at first.
One did not require a, as you speculated, "special, official permission or official documentation of being a rabbi" to speak.
Also notice that while the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Hellenistis argued with him over many matters including him being of illegitimate birth - they never questioned his Rabbinic credentials... That would have been a ridiculously easy administrative way to shut him down wouldn’t it....
The authorities didn't care if His followers chose to call Him a rabbi or a teacher.
The "Son of God" statements and the "My Father in Heaven" claims of which HE was accused of uttering is where their tolerance towards Him stopped and caused the trouble and then, they did shut him down and very quickly. He only had three years in His Ministry.
Don't "kid" yourself, it's "childish" to do that.
Now compare this to The Apostles in Acts 4 when people marvelled at them because they were “untrained and uneducated men”. It’s pretty clear in that passage that the temple officials were getting complaints because they didn’t have official credentials - but they couldn’t run them off because of the “notable miracles” the Apostles were working....
The authorities must have been terrified of what He granted His Apostles to do (the miracles).
Good thing cheeky boy-Jesus was taken away as a teen or else He might have been put to death by the authorities for being a devil-possessed child of some kind.
Can you see my point?
And please, i'll respectfully ask that if/when you quote chapters to prove a point, to please include the verse numbers, also, so that everybody can verify what you claim is factual instead of more conjecture.
Let's stay on topic ,now.
Thanks,
Robbie
