Where on earth...

[fiveinjuly]

Sean; I will tell you a story that Dreck Prince told one time. A new young pastor took over at a church. There where two little old lady in the congregation. One would speak in tongues and the other would interpret. The young pastor was under thier control. Dreck rebuke them. Witchcraft nothing more. "To the one that given much, much is required". I have seen this spirit of control many times. And it smells real bad.

I'm confused...

 

[Suffolk Sean]

I'm confused...

When pastors manipulate others it is simply witchcraft. Actually when people manipulate others is really the thing not just Pastors. However there is something insidious about a person in ministry manipulating people especially when it comes to them using spiritual gifts. I know of cases where prophetic words were utilized to keep people submitted.

All this abuse really has me considering finding a more mainline church or something like Vineyard or Calvary Chapel again. I know these organizations tend to be authoritarian but at least there is accountability of the ministers in them.

 

[enoch son]

I go to several churchs. And the pastors all let me more in my gift or office and they are all get happy to see me. But I will not come under any one of thier "authority". But by the Holy Spirit when I'm in thier churchs I'm under thier authority. It's supernatural thing. I don't know how to say it.

 

[Father Rick]

Why is it that so many Christians revolt at the concept of authority in the church?

When the Roman Centurion came to Jesus he said to Him "I am a man under authority and a man in authority. When I say to this man, 'Go', he goes and to this man, 'Come' and he comes"

Jesus responded by saying this was a sign of great faith.



As I have already stated, there is a difference between being a leader and a dictator, but so many Christians don't realize that they are being influenced by a spirit of rebellion against leadership/authority of any kind. It is funny to me to hear people saying 'When you are controlling me, it is witchcraft', when scripture actually says the opposite--that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

I fully understand that there have been abuses of authority in the Church. But I also read in scripture the story of David and Saul. Even though Saul was a murderous maniac, he was still the anointed of God and was to be respected for the office he held in spite of everything. Because David recognized this, God promoted him. Here in America, especially, so few Christians understand this principle.

I have served under a number of different leaders over the years. One thing I learned is that the harder I worked at submission to the leadership over me, the stronger the anointing when I ministered and the more effective and efficient the ministry. I am now the one in leadership over the church I pastor, but I must still be in submission to my bishop. As the leader, I work hard to see every believer in my congregation grows into whatever God has called them to be, however I am the one ultimately responsible for the care of the souls under my charge. Are there times when I have to put my foot down with one person in order to protect the well-being of the entire flock? Of course! Do I do it to be 'controlling'? No! But as pastor, there are things I know-- both in the natural and by the Spirit-- that most of the flock don't know (and shouldn't) about people and situations. I have to act for the good of the whole flock, even if that means holding back one or two for a little bit so that others can catch up. It's much like a coach on a team. I have to make decisions for the good of the whole team, even if one or two 'superstar' players get their feelings hurt. Usually the 'superstars' have lessons to learn dealing with character, humility, patience, etc. that the only way they can learn is by being 'controlled' or held back. This is the whole concept of discipleship-- being under discipline.

A great book on this whole subject is 'A Tale of Three Kings' written (I believe) by Gene Edwards. It traces the story of Saul, David, and Absolom and looks at the issues of pride, rebellion, submission to authority, etc.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

Great book, and recall, David did leave Saul when the spear hurling got to be abit much...

 

[He put me back together]

When pastors manipulate others it is simply witchcraft. Actually when people manipulate others is really the thing not just Pastors. However there is something insidious about a person in ministry manipulating people especially when it comes to them using spiritual gifts. I know of cases where prophetic words were utilized to keep people submitted.

All this abuse really has me considering finding a more mainline church or something like Vineyard or Calvary Chapel again. I know these organizations tend to be authoritarian but at least there is accountability of the ministers in them.

Well, manipulation is simply manipulation. It's probably not a good thing to set "witchcraft" up as some buzzword we can use for everything that is evil or ungodly. It doesn't stay very true to the word. Not everything that is wrong, absurd, ungodly, or demonic can be placed under the "witchcraft" umbrella, though things are as bad and worse.

As for prophetic words, I personally think there are more false prophecies than real ones. More manipulations than words of God. It was this way throughout the scriptures in their entirety, and it is so obviously the case today. Still, the best thing I think any of us can do is pray to ensure that WE ourselves serve the true Elohim, and seek his will with faith in everything that we do.

 

[Shalia]

You guys make me feel really thankful for my pastors.

Our church has some *really* stupid rules. I mean really stupid. And I argued against them, cause it's not in my nature to sit back and let stupid rules reign. And when the pastors prayerfully considered what I was saying, they realized how "legalistic" their rules had been, and pulled them. <And I'm pretty much nobody in the church. I'm in the choir, and I volunteer for stuff when they need people. No office, no nothing. Just willing to stand up against stupidity when I see it.>

I'm really thankful we have a pastoral staff that listens and worries about their "flock" and listens to suggestions. I'm thankful that they're there when I have questions, and worries, and issues. I'm thankful that our head pastor realizes he can't do it all alone and has trained people under him to be available, that live in local areas who assure the members in their area that they are available day and night should you need them.

I love my church, and I love them even more reading what you guys have to say. I've never seen them abuse their positions.

Shalia

 

[He put me back together]

You guys make me feel really thankful for my pastors.

Our church has some *really* stupid rules. I mean really stupid. And I argued against them, cause it's not in my nature to sit back and let stupid rules reign. And when the pastors prayerfully considered what I was saying, they realized how "legalistic" their rules had been, and pulled them. <And I'm pretty much nobody in the church. I'm in the choir, and I volunteer for stuff when they need people. No office, no nothing. Just willing to stand up against stupidity when I see it.>

I'm really thankful we have a pastoral staff that listens and worries about their "flock" and listens to suggestions. I'm thankful that they're there when I have questions, and worries, and issues. I'm thankful that our head pastor realizes he can't do it all alone and has trained people under him to be available, that live in local areas who assure the members in their area that they are available day and night should you need them.

I love my church, and I love them even more reading what you guys have to say. I've never seen them abuse their positions.

Shalia

Hey, yeah...the simple fact that this is a war and we have things going wrong everywhere doesn't mean that every leader is a tyrant I think absolutely the first thing a good Pastor can do is handle input. "Rebuke not an elder" really is an annoying copout sometimes (and it doesn't even apply to Pastors in the first place, but that's another story)

Sometimes I think I sound like a broken record, but I must repeat that one of the scariest things I think I've heard a Pastor say is "In the last x years that I've been here, no one has had a problem with the way I do things." This has got to be one of the greatest red lights in what we see. It is a nightmare to be in a position where one isn't recieving any criticism, constructive or not. Why?

Luk 6:26 Woe 3759 unto you 5213, when 3752 all 3956 men 444 shall speak 2036 well 2573 of you 5209! for 1063 so 5024 2596 did 4160 their 846 fathers 3962 to the false prophets 5578.

 

[Asaph]

When pastors manipulate others it is simply witchcraft. Actually when people manipulate others is really the thing not just Pastors. However there is something insidious about a person in ministry manipulating people especially when it comes to them using spiritual gifts. I know of cases where prophetic words were utilized to keep people submitted.

All this abuse really has me considering finding a more mainline church or something like Vineyard or Calvary Chapel again. I know these organizations tend to be authoritarian but at least there is accountability of the ministers in them.

Funny you should mention that Sean. I have just recently gone head to head with my pastor whom I considered one of my few friends and he resorted to the "authority" play. It shocked me to no end and I still haven't figured out whether or not to stand against the legalisim of it, or to just move on.

I do know I will not long be associated with any organization that refuses to repent when it starts relying on the flesh. There are already plenty of "churches" doing that.

Asaph

 

[Suffolk Sean]

Funny you should mention that Sean. I have just recently gone head to head with my pastor whom I considered one of my few friends and he resorted to the "authority" play. It shocked me to no end and I still haven't figured out whether or not to stand against the legalisim of it, or to just move on.

I do know I will not long be associated with any organization that refuses to repent when it starts relying on the flesh. There are already plenty of "churches" doing that.

Asaph

He said you shouldn't question him? I'm sure it wasn't in the midst of a sermon right?

 

[Asaph]

He said you shouldn't question him? I'm sure it wasn't in the midst of a sermon right?

No, it wasn't like that.

Asaph

 

[analogman]

I think the problem here is most likely that the Spirit of Elohim is simply missing from our assemblies, in many aspects. If the Spirit is not in us to choose a bishop (as if the decision was actually left up to the congregation in most situations), it is heavily unlikely that the man chosen by Elohim will be chosen by man.

With sadness, my honest observation is that what we call the church is typically like nearly all things on this earth--the one in the leader's seat is not the man who is strongest, smartest, best equipped, or chosen by Elohim (the latter, of course, is all that should matter). It's the man with the biggest mouth. Not to mention the fact that the one in the leader's seat is not truely at the helm, and neither is God.

Our style of meeting is obviously quite different from that of the new testiment--when I read the NT, I do not see one fellow getting up and making a big speech every week. I see everyone speaking together. Hey, I don't even see a stage, or a pulpit (actually, not all of these assemblies could get a pulpit if they wanted one). But the NT doesn't lay out a *plan* for meeting, not that they had one in the first place...I think, chiefly because if they did lay out a plan, it'd be just another culture-based line of scripture for us to pick up and squabble over. Still, while I think it'd be rather childish, *legalistic* (that one's for you, Jim), and off the mark to lay out any one style or plan as *the* format for worship (which is exactly what we've done), I think all of our meetings could use much more input from the congregation than we have. Even among us where everyone participates in the singing and the clapping and the...um...dancing jumping and shouting...when it's time to examine scripture, typically only one man is given to comment, and everybody else is just supposed to shout "amen!" and "you right preacher! you right! praiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiseeeeeee Gawd!" Unless, of course, someone stands up and starts speaking weird, which signifies a prophecy...

I think if there was more interaction and thought in ALL aspects of the church, we'd be less apt to have one guy standing up there dictating to everyone what to think, what to feel, how to act, and everything else. We would all learn from one another and from God, as it is supposed to be. When it comes to wickness in high places, or simply bad choices, or, well, just other people in general, I think the best thing for any individual to do is to make sure that he is right, that he is filled with the Spirit of God, and he himself is walking in the will of the true Father.

THIS IS SOOOOOOOOOO RIGHT ON, THAT IM DOING CART WHEELS IN MY HEART!!! AND I WONDER HOW A PASTOR WOULD FEEL IF HE HAD TO SIT WHILE LISTENING TO A SO CALLED "LAYMEN" SPEAK ??!?!?!?!??

 

[9-iron]

I have also noticed in the circles I move that the “ministry” as it is defined attracts a lot of introverted control-freaks who, while not being able to carry on a casual one-on-one conversation with you, can preach to thousands and who see in the pastoral ministry an opportunity to be the big fish in a small pond.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1143344-abusivemanipulative-church-authority.html

Yep, Suffolk I have been right there with you.

 

[9-iron]

All this abuse really has me considering finding a more mainline church or something like Vineyard or Calvary Chapel again. I know these organizations tend to be authoritarian but at least there is accountability of the ministers in them.

I left the Baptist church 6 years ago because I felt I needed the deeper things of God. Now I am totally confused by this authoritarian style of church govt. Plus, the 'deeper' I got in theology the deeper I got in legalism. Seriously, I have had so many legalistic burdens put on me in this 'spiritual' church that I have sense I will be right with God or do the right thing.

My commitment to God was based on my commitment to the 'building the church'. The pastor would even irritated when I went out of town instead of being 'in church'.

I left and have recently went back to the Baptist church. It isn't perfect either, but it is a good basic foundation to a part of. Plus, there is little opportunity for a hyper-athoritarian pastor to have control over a Baptist church.



Father Rick,

You are right and make some good points. I agree with a lot of what you said. That is part of the two-fold problem. People rebel and the leadership cracks down even harder. Both sides dig in and the problem continues to get worse.

I feel as if I can't even begin to deal with the issue of proper authority right now because of being confused. I also don't trust man, church or anything else right now.

I realize this pastor and many others started out with a sincere heart, but so many external factors have altered their outlook and focus. Then add members not properly submitting it create a bad, very bad enviroment for everyone!