Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

[Amylisa]

To me an altar of Mary would be anyplace that you would go to honor her. I have left a flower for her a few times, just to show her I love her. As anyone would do for their mother!

 

[Kristos]

Not on a alter. I don't have an alter for my mother - nor for anyone but God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Regarding the red, you need to answer the simple question -- do you think we cease being a member of the body of Christ once we're in heaven?

If you do, you need to provide the scriptural evidence that this is so.

If you don't, you need to provide the scriptural evidence that those in heaven no longer function as parts of the body, as defined in Scripture.

Regarding the 'omniscience' argument -- that is a straw man. Once in heaven -- a saint no longer has ears or a mouth -- so do you conclude that they can no longer communicate? Or has God provided them another way to do so? And if so, why would you assume they are limited as we are in an earth-bound body? To be able to be aware of more than we are because they are not limited to an earth bound body -- this does not make them 'omniscient' in any way, shape or form.

Excuse me. You are attempting to draw me into another discussion which is proceeding quite well without my input.

It was you who asserted that Mary actively hears us and cares for us and that the Bible clearly shows these truths. I have simply asked you to provide biblical citations for your allegations. In your first response you provided a theological context for your understanding, but no direct biblical citations and in your second response you have attempted to steer the discussion onto another topic in this thread,

Once again, I sincerely and politely ask you to provide the biblical references for your initial statement.

 

[Amylisa]

I said for me it's anywhere you might go to show respect or honor for her. Not to worship her. I have never seen an actual altar of any kind for Mary.

 

[Amylisa]

And why do people come to the Mariology forum if they completely disagree with any thing regarding Mariology? I am sure if I went to a protestant section and attacked all their beliefs, it would go over like a lead balloon.

But I would not do that, as i try to show respect for other people's beliefs. I don't assume I know better than they do.

And think about it....it is true that very many people thought they knew what Jesus taught, but they completely misunderstood and therefore flat out rejected Him.

That should give a person pause before they condemn things they don't know much about. I think a wiser approach would be to just entrust it to Him, not set oneself up as a judge and jury of other Christians.

 

[MamaZ]

One would assume that the reason that this is here is because this is NOT the OBOB site but the general theology thread to discuss such things as we are discussing now..

 

[bbbbbbb]

I said for me it's anywhere you might go to show respect or honor for her. Not to worship her. I have never seen an actual altar of any kind for Mary.

I have seen many altars dedicated to Mary. Many cathedrals have small chapels off of the apse (where the main altar is located) of which one is usually dedicated to Mary and there is an altar there. At the altar people light candles and pray to Mary. As well, priests offer masses in the chapel at the altars.

 

[narnia59]

Excuse me. You are attempting to draw me into another discussion which is proceeding quite well without my input.

It was you who asserted that Mary actively hears us and cares for us and that the Bible clearly shows these truths. I have simply asked you to provide biblical citations for your allegations. In your first response you provided a theological context for your understanding, but no direct biblical citations and in your second response you have attempted to steer the discussion onto another topic in this thread,

Once again, I sincerely and politely ask you to provide the biblical references for your initial statement.

1 Corinthians: 12-26 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Romans 8:38-39 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you have scriptural evidence that shows that we are indeed separated from the one body of Christ at death, please provide that. If not, then I stand by my statement that scripture shows that those who have died in Christ still are concerned for us and suffer and rejoice with us, because scripture shows that every part of the body does so.

 

[MamaZ]

I have seen many altars dedicated to Mary. Many cathedrals have small chapels off of the apse (where the main altar is located) of which one is usually dedicated to Mary and there is an altar there. At the altar people light candles and pray to Mary. As well, priests offer masses in the chapel at the altars.

Wow I have never seen this.. So they really do have an alter set up for Mary?

 

[Kristos]

Then I would have to agree with SZ on this one. Unless someone can explain how an altar fits into veneration (not worship). Maybe I have the wrong mind, but when I hear altar, I think worship. What other purpose could it serve?

This doesn't seem to agree:
In the United States the General Instruction of the Roman Missalis used regarding regulations for the altar. The Instruction recommends:
That there be a fixed altar in every church, since it more clearly and permanently signifies Christ as the living stone (1 Peter 2:4; cf. Ephesians 2:20). The reason an altar is called 'fixed' is because it attached to the floor so as to be irremovable.
Roman Catholicism requires that there be only one altar in a newly built church, and that it be made of stone, ideally natural stone, as the altar symbolises Christ who is regarded as being the cornerstone of the Church. In practice, however, solid and well-crafted wood is often used, due to the expense of stone. It is still customary to place relics of saints under the altar.
In older church buildings where the altar is positioned against the wall and cannot be moved without damage (examples of which can be seen in this section) a table is normally placed in front, and the old one used either for aethestic purposes or for the tabernacle.
Because the altar represents Christ, only what is required for the celebration of the Mass may be placed on the mensa (the flat, horizontal surface of the altar), but this is not a recommendation that is normally followed.

 

[Amylisa]

Regarding discussion here...here's the posted Forum Guidelines for Mariology.

Forum-specific guidelines:

Threads started for the sole purpose of making accusations or insinuations that a group of Christians commit idolatry, raise Mary to the level of a deity, or are advancing to such an end, are not in keeping with the purpose of this forum. Threads started for the sole purpose of accusing a group of Christians of disrespecting Mary are likewise not in keeping with the purpose of this forum. Threads not in keeping with the purpose of the forum will be closed or deleted at staff discretion.

Posts that make such accusations also may be reported and acted upon.


This thread was started for the sole purpose of making insinuations that a group of Christians raise Mary to the level of a deity.
Therefore no, just cause this forum is in General Theology doesn't mean people can come here and say whatever they want.

 

[simonthezealot]

Regarding discussion here...here's the posted Forum Guidelines for Mariology.

Forum-specific guidelines:

Threads started for the sole purpose of making accusations or insinuations that a group of Christians commit idolatry, raise Mary to the level of a deity, or are advancing to such an end, are not in keeping with the purpose of this forum. Threads started for the sole purpose of accusing a group of Christians of disrespecting Mary are likewise not in keeping with the purpose of this forum. Threads not in keeping with the purpose of the forum will be closed or deleted at staff discretion.

Posts that make such accusations also may be reported and acted upon.


This thread was started for the sole purpose of making insinuations that a group of Christians raise Mary to the level of a deity.
Therefore no, just cause this forum is in General Theology doesn't mean people can come here and say whatever they want.

Deistic identity is not suggesting a level of deity it's a conversation as to why she has by many NOT in the know, been identified as such, and the truth is building alters to any other than God sure helps mold that image in the minds of the unstudied, one need not look any further than a place like Lima Peru or most areas of SA.

 

[Amylisa]

I think I know what you are saying...but I still think the thread is pretty much against the intentions of this forum. I believe you if that's what you say, though. The hard part of forum posting is that it's strictly written words. People's tone, manner, etc. can't be expressed. And of course we can't judge a person's motive, only the person and God know that.

If you really want to understand the 'whys' of what the Catholic church teaches about Mary, then I could recommend some really good resources. A person can't really "get" what that's all about without studying the background information, and again, the 'whys."

I love your signature, by the way! The verse about Jesus actually becoming sin on our behalf has always absolutely amazed me. Wow....! He who is GOD, became sin...unimaginable. How beautiful Jesus is!!!

 

[simonthezealot]

I love your signature, by the way! The verse about Jesus actually becoming sin on our behalf has always absolutely amazed me. Wow....! He who is GOD, became sin...unimaginable. How beautiful Jesus is!!!

Thanks a favorite of mine as well, it's a good reminder as well to what He committed us to do.

 

[JoabAnias]

Deistic identity is not suggesting a level of deity it's a conversation as to why she has by many NOT in the know, been identified as such, and the truth is building alters to any other than God sure helps mold that image in the minds of the unstudied, one need not look any further than a place like Lima Peru or most areas of SA.

Ummm, I am quite a ways from Lima Peru.

Are you saying there are people deifying Mary there?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not in Lima, Peru either, but I am in Iowa and I have visited a number of cathedrals in the U.S., such as St. Patrick's in New York City, and have observed chapels with altars decidated to the BVM with worshippers who were doing the same things as they were at other altars (dedicated to other saints, as well as the main altar) of the cathedral. I am not a mind reader, but their activities were identical at all of these altars.

 

[Amylisa]

Joab, I wondered what that meant also. I am not familiar with...whatever it is! (regarding Lima, Peru.)

Catholics do have statues, etc. as visible reminders of the fact that the saints do still live, in heaven. Personally I am very moved by artwork of any kind.

Also, there is a difference between worship and veneration. Catholics venerate Mary. I wear a medal of Mary all the time, much the same way I would wear a locket with my mother's picture in it. I do it to remind myself of Mary and to honor her. There are some people who do seem to worship Mary...if so they are going beyond what the Catholic church teaches.

The scriptures speak of us here below, being surrounded by a 'cloud of witnesses' who are in effect cheering us on. This is part of where our teachings about the saints come from. It is a big encouragement to me. Christ is the center of all, of course. I couldn't live without Him! He is the only One who saved me, or any of us.

 

[Thekla]

beware the cultural imperialism 'round here

 

[simonthezealot]

In Lima, Peru like many SA countries the Incas had Roman catholicism essentially forced on them creating a blend of religions therefore they began to worship Mary as the "mother earth".

 

[JoabAnias]

In Lima, Peru like many SA countries the Incas had Roman catholicism essentially forced on them creating a blend of religions therefore they began to worship Mary as the "mother earth".

That sounds Pagan. Mother earth I mean. I have never heard of this. You do realize thats not the teaching of the Church though right and such a belief would never have been taught by the Church? If it developed somehow its not the Church deifing Mary but misguided individuals I would say.

Are you aware of Incan beliefs? They were even worse weren't they? They aren't sacrificing each other to Mother Earth are they?