Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

[narnia59]

They are asleep. They are at perfect peace and rest. Not doing the work of the church. They have ran the goal.. They have reached the FINISH line.

So your conclusion then is that they are no longer a member of the body of Christ.

 

[MamaZ]

So your conclusion then is that they are no longer a member of the body of Christ.

No that was not my conclusion but your assumption that was what I was saying.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, I guess it depends on what one believes about the body of Christ, and being a member.

In multiple places in scripture, we are told believers belong to 'one body'. We are all members of this 'one body'. (Romans 12, 1Corinthians 10, 1Corinthians 12, Ephesians 3-5, Colossians 3). In fact, a lot of Scripture is spent drilling into our heads this understanding.

We are also told in scripture that nothing, including death can separate us from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).

So if one does not believe that the saints in heaven are concerned about our welfare and suffer and rejoice with us, what does one believe about the 'one body'?

Seems to me there are only two conclusions. First, there is not one body, but two -- one for those living on earth and one for those living in heaven. Two completely separate bodies, which is completely contradictory to scripture -- there is only one body.

The second conclusion would be that we are separated from this one body at death. Again, completely contradictory to scripture.

If one believes there is one body, and that we are not separated from this body at death (as Catholics do) then scripture is clear that members within the body care for each other and rejoice and suffer together. In fact, Paul says that "The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"

However, this is exactly what people do when they tell those in heaven -- "we don't need you". We have Jesus, and that's all we need.

So the question is -- do you believe there is one body, and that death does not separate us from it? If so, then scripture says the saints in heaven indeed care for us. If not, please provide the scripture that supports your view that there are two bodies, or that we are no longer members of the one body at death.

I regret that you have provided a theological reasoning to my question. Your assertion was that the Bible fully supported your assertion that Mary suffers and feels for each individual in the church,. I requested Biblical citations supporting your assertions and, at best, you have given references which, taken in the theological context which you have constructed around them, have been used to support your assertion. The bottom line seems to be that you have no Biblical references to support your assertions and that one is left to conclude that you are in error in believing that the Bible fully supports your ideas.

What is commonly believed concerning the heavenly status of the BVM is that she possesses virtual, if not complete, omniscience so that she is able and willing to intercede for innumerable individuals simultaneously. Unfortunately, only God possesses omniscience and to elevate Mary to that level goes widely beyond anything revealed in the Bible, either about members of "the body" or of the BVM individually.

 

[narnia59]

No that was not my conclusion but your assumption that was what I was saying.

If you believe they are still the body of Christ, then you should be able to provide scripture that supports your belief that they are limbs that are asleep and useless to the body. I find no such description in scripture -- Paul says that all the parts are needed by each other.

They have indeed finished the race -- their personal race. But the role of the different parts of the body is to assist others in their race as well. Just because they've finished the personal race, where does it say they no longer fulfill this role of assistance in the body of Christ?

 

[narnia59]

I regret that you have provided a theological reasoning to my question. Your assertion was that the Bible fully supported your assertion that Mary suffers and feels for each individual in the church,. I requested Biblical citations supporting your assertions and, at best, you have given references which, taken in the theological context which you have constructed around them, have been used to support your assertion. The bottom line seems to be that you have no Biblical references to support your assertions and that one is left to conclude that you are in error in believing that the Bible fully supports your ideas.

What is commonly believed concerning the heavenly status of the BVM is that she possesses virtual, if not complete, omniscience so that she is able and willing to intercede for innumerable individuals simultaneously. Unfortunately, only God possesses omniscience and to elevate Mary to that level goes widely beyond anything revealed in the Bible, either about members of "the body" or of the BVM individually.

Regarding the red, you need to answer the simple question -- do you think we cease being a member of the body of Christ once we're in heaven?

If you do, you need to provide the scriptural evidence that this is so.

If you don't, you need to provide the scriptural evidence that those in heaven no longer function as parts of the body, as defined in Scripture.

Regarding the 'omniscience' argument -- that is a straw man. Once in heaven -- a saint no longer has ears or a mouth -- so do you conclude that they can no longer communicate? Or has God provided them another way to do so? And if so, why would you assume they are limited as we are in an earth-bound body? To be able to be aware of more than we are because they are not limited to an earth bound body -- this does not make them 'omniscient' in any way, shape or form.

 

[MamaZ]

If you believe they are still the body of Christ, then you should be able to provide scripture that supports your belief that they are limbs that are asleep and useless to the body. I find no such description in scripture -- Paul says that all the parts are needed by each other.

They have indeed finished the race -- their personal race. But the role of the different parts of the body is to assist others in their race as well. Just because they've finished the personal race, where does it say they no longer fulfill this role of assistance in the body of Christ?

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
1Co 15:11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Co 15:15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[MamaZ]

Notice how Paul show us the have fallen asleep.. Now do sleeping people work? No they sleep.

 

[simonthezealot]

I'm not sure where I stand on soul sleep, regardless asleep in His presence or awake and worshipping Him neither indicates an ability to be omniscient.

 

[simonthezealot]

Notice how Paul show us the have fallen asleep.. Now do sleeping people work? No they sleep.

Couldn't this likely mean the body and not the spirit though?

 

[MamaZ]

Regarding the 'omniscience' argument -- that is a straw man. Once in heaven -- a saint no longer has ears or a mouth -- so do you conclude that they can no longer communicate?

Well if one does not have ears how can they hear the prayers. If they do not have a mouth how can they speak..

 

[MamaZ]

Couldn't this likely mean the body and not the spirit though?

My understanding of this scripture is that they are at rest. At home with Jesus.. Not that they are not still part of the body of Christ but that they are now asleep as in rest. Not running the race but at the finish line.. Waiting for all of us to get to the finish line. Waiting for their bodies to be ressurected to the glorious body. Right now they are clothed with thier heavenly home and not thier bodies.. What do ya think?

 

[Kristos]

like God?

 

[narnia59]

Well if one does not have ears how can they hear the prayers. If they do not have a mouth how can they speak..

So basically you believe they cannot communicate with each other either since they do not have physical attributes that allow them to do so?

 

[narnia59]

My understanding of this scripture is that they are at rest. At home with Jesus.. Not that they are not still part of the body of Christ but that they are now asleep as in rest. Not running the race but at the finish line.. Waiting for all of us to get to the finish line. Waiting for their bodies to be ressurected to the glorious body. Right now they are clothed with thier heavenly home and not thier bodies.. What do ya think?

So you believe the body of Christ is half asleep?

I think they are fully alive in Christ, fully alive in His Spirit, and fully functioning as members of the body of Christ as defined in scripture. I see no evidence to indicate otherwise.

Jesus told us that those who were burdened could come to him and find rest. I do not think that means 'sleep' or unconsciousness. I think it means a peace beyond all understanding, and this is the 'rest' they have achieved in its totality.

 

[narnia59]

I'm not sure where I stand on soul sleep, regardless asleep in His presence or awake and worshipping Him neither indicates an ability to be omniscient.

Again, the omniscient line of thinking is a strawman argument. You're assuming they must either have an earthly physical limitation even though they no longer are constrained by earthly physical bodies, or they must be "all" knowing. Can't quite see how one can conclude that it has to be one of those two things.

 

[simonthezealot]

MamaZ
I tend to subscribe to this from
Dr. Macarthurs view...
Absent from the Body, Present with the Lord
When a believer leaves this world he goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ. There is no soul sleep or intermediate waiting place. Nor does the Bible teach that there is any place called purgatory. Paul's desire was "to depart and be with Christ" (Phil. 1:23, emphasis added).
Acts 7:59-60--As Stephen was being stoned to death "he called upon the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!' And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them!' And having said this, he fell asleep." Stephen's spirit was received into Christ's presence of Christ while his body "fell asleep"--died. The biblical writers often described death as falling asleep in light of the resurrection, which is when the body rises again.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8--"While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--for we walk by faith, not by sight ... and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." When we are absent from the body, which sleeps until the resurrection, our spirits are at home with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:10--The Lord Jesus Christ "died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." Paul's point is that whether we are physically awake (alive) or physically asleep (dead), as believers we are with Christ. We are in His presence in a spiritual sense now and in a literal sense when our bodies are dead.
There is no time in the life of a believer when he or she will ever be out of the conscious presence of Jesus Christ.
According to Paul, being in Christ's literal presence is "very much better" (Phil. 1:23). More than "better" or "much better," to be with Christ so far surpasses anything in this life that it is "very much better." It's as though Paul could find no superlative adequate to express the comparison between being on earth and being with Christ in heaven.

 

[Kristos]

Did anyone answer the alter question? What exactly does that mean? Where is Mary's alter? What does this represent?

 

[MamaZ]

So you believe the body of Christ is half asleep?

I think they are fully alive in Christ, fully alive in His Spirit, and fully functioning as members of the body of Christ as defined in scripture. I see no evidence to indicate otherwise.

Jesus told us that those who were burdened could come to him and find rest. I do not think that means 'sleep' or unconsciousness. I think it means a peace beyond all understanding, and this is the 'rest' they have achieved in its totality.

well Jesus was more than just a human. He is God, Mary on the other hand is was totally human. Big difference than Jesus.

 

[MamaZ]

Did anyone answer the alter question? What exactly does that mean? Where is Mary's alter? What does this represent?

Not yet we are still waiting on that answer

 

[Amylisa]

Forgive me, I haven't read this entire thread. But to reply to the OP...

She is called the glory, because she obeyed God and therefore glory is ascribed to Mary. And she glorified Him to the extreme if you think about it! The first time anyone ever said, "Blessed are you among women, and Blessed is the fruit of your womb," Mary's response was to give glory to God. "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour."

There are lots of scriptures in the Bible that refer to Mary, but some denominations do not interpret them as such. So I won't go down that road. ;-) At least not in this thread.

You know one thing that Jesus has been showing me lately? SO many times when He taught, the people really believed they understood what He was saying about Himself. But they were totally wrong. And they rejected Him, based on their faulty understanding. This same issue can definitely be applied to the study of Mariology. You have to know the background of the teachings about her.

Having been a protestant for over 20 years, I am learning a lot. And it brings me so much joy!

p.s. Regarding the thread title...just want to say, the Catholic Church doesn't ascribe deity to Mary. She is a creature of God. She is highly honored because she is the Mother of the Son of God Himself! Think about it! It is truly amazing.