Where Is Your Faith?

[John Hyperspace]

There are many people who question whether or not they will be saved; some even questioning if they are even saved at the moment. Personally, I have no doubt whatsoever that I'm saved. This is because I believe that only God can save, and so one-hundred and ten percent of my faith is completely in God. This is why I have such personal assurance in my own heart, because I am relying completely on faith in God, and I know God cannot fail. Thus, in my mind, I cannot be failed to be saved by God.

Now then, a person who doesn't know if they will be saved cannot have faith in God to save him. His faith in his salvation must be placed in something else, something that can fail, or, succeed. He must be placing all of his faith in himself, true? We all believe that God has done something for our salvation. But is it enough? I say, it is enough.

But some may say, it is not enough; God has done what He has done, but it is not enough to save me, and now the ball is in my court. I must finish the work. Now it is all up to me. In the end, whether I am saved or not, is now up to me, and me alone. To this way of thought, salvation is now a burden upon this one's own shoulders. He must now place his faith in his own hands. All his faith is now in himself, to finish the work of God.

To the one who thinks this way, I can completely understand why this man would doubt his salvation; I would, too, if I were him. I would stand in complete and utter doubt at every moment. The man who has no doubt in his own self seems to me quite blind to his own miserable state in the flesh. The man who puts his faith in himself seems destined for failure.

So I'm asking, do you believe your salvation is dependant upon your own effort of works, in cooperation with God? How much faith do you put in yourself? Is your faith in yourself equal to your faith in God? Knowing that God doesn't fail His side of the cooperative work, doesn't this mean that all of your faith should be placed into your own self, since there is no need to doubt that God has upheld His side of the work; only you now can determine your own salvation. If only you can save yourself now, how is it you have not become your own god of your own salvation at this point?

I also wanted to know: is there a passage in the gospels, in which Jesus asked for the one He was saving to cooperate with Him with their works? When Jesus calmed the storm, He did it without asking for cooperation from the disciples with Him. When He gave sight to the blind, He did it Himself by their faith in Him alone. Is there an instance of Jesus not able to save someone because they didn't "work with Him"? Jesus didn't need Lazarus to work with Him in order to resurrect Lazarus.

I suppose the real question I am asking is, at this point in your walk, in whom do you trust to finish the work, and bring you into perfection? The proverbial ball is in, whose court?

 

[John Hyperspace]

A following question. Let's say for a moment that I buy into this doctrine teaching I must finish the work. At this point, I would put faith in myself equal to any faith I have in God. I would do this out of seeming necessity. Now, if I said then, my faith in myself is equal to my faith in God; would I be wrong to have such supreme faith in myself? Or would this be right of me? Would I be advised to have no such faith, but to stand in doubt of myself?

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Personally, I have no doubt whatsoever that I'm saved.

My problem with this is, that we need to repent everyday. (don't we?) There should never be a feeling of complacency. Which kind of makes me a feel a sense of unease constantly.

 

[Chriliman]

You're right that we should first have faith in God through Christ for he is the author and finisher of our faith. However, the Bible does speak about Jesus having less power to perform miracles due to lack of faith in others, so it seems our faith is intimately tied to God and he is effected in some way if we lack faith or have a lot of faith in him. We're also told to not grieve the Holy Spirit, which to me means don't put your faith in anything before God. This isn't to say you can't have faith in anything else, but just always put God first.

Faith and salvation are gifts and once received we're called to do His will, which means there will be work involved and that work reaps rewards.

 

[John Hyperspace]

My problem with this is, that we need to repent everyday. (don't we?) There should never be a feeling of complacency. Which kind of makes me a feel a sense of unease constantly.

You know how some say, good works are the means, while others say, good works are the result? If I look at those opposing statements and consider, which is true? then that is what leads to my question. I conclude that they must be the result, otherwise, now my faith is in my own self as the means; and that seems a very wrong place for it to be. So the question of, in whom is your faith, is actually addressing all of these concepts springing from the root of, who is responsible for finishing the work? In whom is our faith in the finishing process.

To ask about repentance, is it the means, or, the result? Is also to ask (without stating the question), in whom is your faith? If your faith is in yourself, then repentance will be the means; but if your faith is in God, then repentance will be the result. Does this make sense?

I would also propose, this word "repentance" has a variety of possible meanings; which is correct? Do you know what I mean by a "variety of meanings"? See, I would propose that no one really knows what most of the scripture means, at least, not with any certainty. You can't be sure you're "repenting" the way that God means for you to repent. You can't be sure you're "doing it right": so if we place ourselves as the means, the, faith, then doubt is going to spring up everywhere all around us. Are you sure you're doing it right? Are you certain you're following the rules the way you're supposed to? Are you sure you're not misunderstanding? I don't think any honest person can know for sure. So, even if they place their faith in themselves, they can't even be sure their works are working the right path. Do you know what I mean?

It becomes a proverbial whirlwind of confusion and uncertainty based on faith in oneself. Which leads to never-ending fear and turmoil. The only way I can see to be assured, is to trust in God alone, and have faith in God alone. God is the one and only that I am certain not only knows what He is doing, understands what He expects, but also the only one capable of doing it. John 14:10

I see no other enemy to faith than we ourselves. Meaning, I can see doubt arises only through belief that we, ourselves, must finish the work. Once that thought is in the mind, the weight of the world is on our shoulders and ours alone. All of our faith falls onto us, and all of our hope stands in doubt at every moment.

The only way to be free of doubt and uncertainty, is to have faith in God alone, that He began and finishes, and we are nothing of ourselves in the process: no more than the pottery can help the Potter to bring it into perfection.

 

[John Hyperspace]

You're right that we should first have faith in God through Christ for he is the author and finisher of our faith. However, the Bible does speak about Jesus having less power to perform miracles due to lack of faith in others, so it seems our faith is intimately tied to God and he is effected in some way if we lack faith or have a lot of faith in him. We're also told to not grieve the Holy Spirit, which to me means don't put your faith in anything before God. This isn't to say you can't have faith in anything else, but just always put God first.

Faith and salvation are gifts and once received we're called to do His will, which means there will be work involved and that work reaps rewards.

This goes into what I was saying above. The question of these things all comes down to, is this the means, or, the result? Are good works the means, or, the result: do you know what I'm saying? Even faith itself looks to be solely imparted by God: Romans 12:3, Philippians 1:29, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, John 15:16. But if we say, we have chosen God, or, good works are the means, or, any of these things which men say, we immediately beg the question prposed in the original post. Where is our faith? In God, or, in us? If we say, we are the means; then our faith must be in us. But if we say, we are the result; then our faith must be in God.

In us, or, in God. Means, or, results. I know there are lots of passages we can look at and see "we are the means" but if we're honest, we can see a lot of things in scripture that aren't necessarily so clear (hence the myriad branches teaching the myriad doctrines, all based on how they understand what's being read); but one thing to me is clear by reason: it is either faith in ourselves to be the means of finishing the work, or, faith in God.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

If your faith is in yourself, then repentance will be the means; but if your faith is in God, then repentance will be the result. Does this make sense?

almost

 

[com7fy8]

Paul says, "faith working through love," in Galatians 5:6. So, we need faith which is working by means of God's love, I consider.

Also, our Apostle Paul does say,

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," in Philippians 2:12.

 

[Chriliman]

This goes into what I was saying above. The question of these things all comes down to, is this the means, or, the result? Are good works the means, or, the result: do you know what I'm saying? Even faith itself looks to be solely imparted by God: Romans 12:3, Philippians 1:29, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, John 15:16. But if we say, we have chosen God, or, good works are the means, or, any of these things which men say, we immediately beg the question prposed in the original post. Where is our faith? In God, or, in us? If we say, we are the means; then our faith must be in us. But if we say, we are the result; then our faith must be in God.

In us, or, in God. Means, or, results. I know there are lots of passages we can look at and see "we are the means" but if we're honest, we can see a lot of things in scripture that aren't necessarily so clear (hence the myriad branches teaching the myriad doctrines, all based on how they understand what's being read); but one thing to me is clear by reason: it is either faith in ourselves to be the means of finishing the work, or, faith in God.

I see your point and I think all glory goes to God for our faith and He'll glorify us based on the work we do through that faith.

In human terms it's analogous to training up a child well and then watching them thrive on their own in the real world with the 'spirit' you instilled in them. The parent finds great pleasure in that and the child is grateful to the parent for training them well. Perfect family dynamic where everyone is fulfilled through genuine love and gratitude toward one another.

 

[bling]

Accepting pure charity from a Giver that has made a huge sacrifice to give the gift is not “working” to get the gift or it would not be pure charity, but it is also not doing “nothing” and just obtaining the gift arbitrarily. Faith is a “gift” all mature adults have been given, but that does not mean all will turn their trust toward God.

We know we are “saved” by the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, but that does not mean our free will has been taken away and we cannot quench the Spirit. In order to sin we have to quench the Spirit, but that does not mean we are lost. The gift of eternal life is like a birthright (Esau’s birthright could not be lost, stolen or taken back, but it could be given away. Gal. 6: 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

So eternal life can be given up since it is truly ours to do with as we please (a gift).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

As it is written, and so it is:
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:16-18)
.
The transformation ball is collaborative. We trust God, and he matures love within us so we kick that fear and unease in His presence.

 

[1213]

There are many people who question whether or not they will be saved; some even questioning if they are even saved at the moment. Personally, I have no doubt whatsoever that I'm saved....

But what do you mean with salvation? I think it means, sins are forgiven. I am sure about the forgiveness, but it is not all. Bible tells that eternal life is for righteous, so after forgiveness, if person is not righteous, the forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

 

[John Hyperspace]

But what do you mean with salvation? I think it means, sins are forgiven. I am sure about the forgiveness, but it is not all. Bible tells that eternal life is for righteous, so after forgiveness, if person is not righteous, the forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

So your faith needs to be in yourself, is what you're implying? It's up to you now. God did His work for you, now your ability to "go to heaven" is all about you? You are the maker or breaker of "going to heaven" and so, since the spotlight is on you, all of your faith should be in you right now? Is your faith in yourself as great as your faith in God? Or, more? Less? It would seem to me that you would want to have faith in yourself as great as your faith in God, once was? Because, you would need no faith in God, now; correct? Since God has done His work, you don't need faith in Him anymore since His work is over. Now it's all about you, so it seems you would want all of your faith in yourself at this point? Am I understanding correctly?

What I mean is, you have to be righteous now that God has forgiven you, otherwise you won't make it to heaven. So now it's all about your righteousness, and you being responsible for working your own righteousness, am I getting that correct? So is your faith in your own righteousness as great as your faith in God, before He was taken out of the equation and it all became about you making yourself righteous enough to get into heaven?

Am I understanding you?

 

[1213]

...Now it's all about you, so it seems you would want all of your faith in yourself at this point? Am I understanding correctly?...

No. Salvation, if it means forgiveness of sins, is freely from God. Also, eternal life is a gift. But that gift is for righteous. There is nothing that person can do to gain those, but person must be righteous to get the eternal life, if we believe what the Bible tells. And I have understood that righteousness is basically right state of mind, which makes person do right actions. However, I am not judge and I don’t really know who are righteous.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You're right that we should first have faith in God through Christ for he is the author and finisher of our faith. However, the Bible does speak about Jesus having less power to perform miracles due to lack of faith in others, so it seems our faith is intimately tied to God and he is effected in some way if we lack faith or have a lot of faith in him. We're also told to not grieve the Holy Spirit, which to me means don't put your faith in anything before God. This isn't to say you can't have faith in anything else, but just always put God first.

Faith and salvation are gifts and once received we're called to do His will, which means there will be work involved and that work reaps rewards.

But I'm not sure that faith ever comes to a point where it is so strong that we progress to works. Because each time we repent or fail, we usually get another chance sometime in the future to do the same sort of thing that we once failed at again. And if the next time we hold our ground longer (because we have more faith) or depend upon God instead of ourselves (excercising faith now when we had not before) than we have grown in our faith.

I think that life is series of times or circumstances where with more faith or less sin, that we can make a different decision and have a different outcome.

I don't think faith is a one-time thing to get saved. God to me expects less sin as we mature, but definately more faith.

God is creating future inhabitants of heaven, not waiting for good inhabitants on earth.

 

[John Hyperspace]

No. Salvation, if it means forgiveness of sins, is freely from God. Also, eternal life is a gift. But that gift is for righteous. There is nothing that person can do to gain those, but person must be righteous to get the eternal life, if we believe what the Bible tells. And I have understood that righteousness is basically right state of mind, which makes person do right actions. However, I am not judge and I don’t really know who are righteous.

I understand what you're saying. I suppose I would say that the scripture defines no one as righteous by their own works, but, righteousness is imputed only by faith: Romans 3:10, Romans 4:20-22, James 2:23. So it would propose that righteousness is imputed to the one who believes God can and will do what He promises. This then is faith in God, apart from our own works, or, ability to "make ourselves righteous": Romans 4:6

The real question here is, where is our faith in our salvation? Is it in the hands of God, or, in our own hands? If a man fears "I may not be saved" how is he counted as having faith in God to fulfill the promise? Isn't he having faith in himself to be saved? To be righteous? To be worthy? And so he doubts in himself, because his salvation is of himself? If the believer has ought to do, and by his own works either is saved, or not: how is he not the master of his own salvation? But I ask the question of the one who doubts. This is to whom is the question "Where is your faith?" Because it must not be in God; for what man would doubt the power of God to salvation?

 

[TurtleAnne]

My work-in-progress understanding of it so far, is that before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, humans had no understanding of good versus evil, so therefore humans couldn't be good or evil. And likewise I have seen a verse in the Bible that says we have to become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of God, and something I have noticed about children is that they have gut understandings of good and evil based on empathy alone, but then adopt other concepts of good and evil from their societies as they grow older, along with many other concepts. For example, many very young children would run around naked if their parents didn't have them wear clothes (which parents should do), similar to how Adam and Eve didn't realize they were naked until they ate of the tree of knowledge. Now I'm not trying to suggest that everyone should be running around naked or anything, but what I'm trying to get at it as having that level of trust (faith) and God-given sense of right and wrong (empathy, love, as Jesus taught) might be (?) what it meant about becoming like little children? First by how children only start out with that basic understanding of right and wrong (empathy, love), and also have unwavering trust in their caregiver(s) (such that they learn more about what to consider right and wrong from their caregivers as they grow up, and eventually society as a whole), so it would sort of translate as adults maybe to following the teachings of Jesus to have faith and love? I am wondering about this, because I am wondering if for some, the difficulty might be more understood as having a hard time trusting. Like we can read the Bible and absorb the information there, and we can know in a cerebral sort of way that it is true and that Jesus' words are true, but emotionally, there might be a difficulty with trust. And if that were the case for some, then I would think that like most relationships, time builds trust, so being dedicated to walking with the Lord in one's life over time could help with trust. Hopefully this made at least a little bit of sense, I'm really tried heh.

 

[1213]

...The real question here is, where is our faith in our salvation? Is it in the hands of God, or, in our own hands? If a man fears "I may not be saved" how is he counted as having faith in God to fulfill the promise? Isn't he having faith in himself to be saved? To be righteous? To be worthy? And so he doubts in himself, because his salvation is of himself? ...

I think the "I may not be saved" is understandable, because Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. That is why there is something that also is about human, not only about God. I am not judge and I am not God, so I am therefore not right person to say am I righteous or not and I therefore don’t know what happens in the end to me. However, I don’t worry about that, because I know God is good. Whatever He does will also be good and right, even if it means I go to hell.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I think the "I may not be saved" is understandable, because Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. I am therefore not right person to say am I righteous or not

I understand what you're saying. See, when you say "I am therefore not the right person to say am I righteous or not" then you are the center of your salvation. You're basing it all on whether or not you are righteous. Whether or not you are righteous will determine if you are saved. So, your salvation must all be dependent on you. I certainly understand why someone believing such would have very little faith or hope, since it is in you.

But, if I ask you: is God righteous? Would you also reply "I am therefore not the right person to say God is righteous or not"? Again, the question comes down to "Where is your faith?" or, "In whom is your faith?" "In whom is your righteousness found?" You, or, God? It seems clear to me that a person who doesn't know whether or not they are saved, cannot be saved; because his power to be saved is in himself; his faith is in himself. There is nothing in God but lip-service.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

I know I'm saved but ... My faith is used up..nothing is left. If I were to pass away tonight...if have no idea where is go.