Heber Book List
Theologian [Applied Theology]
- Jul 1, 2015
- 2,609
- 851
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Messianic
- Marital Status
- Private
If you read twenty Bible translations of verses 38 and 39 i don't see any significant disagreement. However, (and i do mean HOWEVER), it's as much (or more) up to the interpretation of the reader based on their understanding of the relationship between the Tanakh (e.g. Ezekiel 47:1-12) and the Ketuvei HaShalichim (John 7:37-39). Thus, some Messianics see Yeshua's words in verse 38 (during Shavuot~verse 37) as dovetailing with the Tanakh (e.g. Ezekiel 47:1-12: & Zechariah 14:8); while still questioning the translator's wording in both 38 and 39 as if the translator has a corrupted source or every translator is sorely mistaken.
It should be remembered in verse 39 that John's words are a reflection back several years later after the Disciples and other Jewish Believers had received the infilling baptism of His Spirit on Shavuot as recorded in Acts chapter 2 of the Ketuvei HaShalichim. Thus, it's not an impossibility that the Apostles and other 1st Century Jewish Followers would consider themselves Christians in the best sense of the word. However, some Messianic Jews perceive verse 39 of John's commentary as not referenced/implied in the Tanakh and therefore suspect. Thus the bracketed parentheses enclosing Lulav's red quote of verse 39.
Perhaps, Young's Literal Translation is a better reading of Yeshua's words as verse 38 reads "as the Writing said" referring to the Tanakh. However, where in the Tanakh is scripture that implies that "he who is believing in me" will experience "Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water". Thus both verses are apparently perplexing to those within the Messianic Judaism movement that question the translation trustworthiness of the Ketuvei HaShalichim.
38 he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, 'Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'Perhaps, Heber and Lulav interpret "Rivers out of his belly" to only apply to the Throne Room of Israel's Messiah when He reigns as LORD of lords and KING of kings on earth and NOT to born again [Spirit-filled] Believers [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Me]. Such an interpretation of verse 38 then presents a problem as verse 39 implies that "Rivers out of his belly" refers to born again [Spirit-filled] Believers.
39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
When reading several different translations including the YLT of verse 38 none of them (NKJV, CJB, JUL, etc, etc) capitalize 'His' in "Rivers out of his belly" implying 'his' refers to born again Spirit-filled Believers. Verse 39 of the NIV reads, "rivers of living water will flow from within them", and verse 39 of the TLB reads, "rivers of living water shall flow from the inmost being of anyone who believes in me". The TPT takes even a more passionate stance ...
John 7:38-39 The Passion Translation (TPT)
38 Believe in me so that rivers of living water will burst out from within you, flowing from your innermost being, just like the Scripture says!”
39 Jesus was prophesying about the Holy Spirit that believers were being prepared to receive. But the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured out upon them, because Jesus had not yet been unveiled in his full splendor.
Footnotes:
- John 7:38 The root word used here is the same as the River Jordan, which means “flowing” (down).
- John 7:38 Or “rivers of living water will flow from his throne within.” See Isa. 44:3; 55:1; 58:11; Ezek. 47:1; Rev. 22:1. A drink becomes a river!
- John 7:39 As translated from the Aramaic.
- John 7:39 This splendor included the splendor of the cross, the splendor of his resurrection, and the glory of his ascension into heaven. Just as water poured out of the rock that was struck by Moses, so from the wounded side of Jesus living water poured out to heal, save, and bring life to everyone who believes. The Holy Spirit poured out of Christ and into the church at Pentecost.
The Church did not exist at Pentecost when the Spirit was given - the hearers were Jews; this birth of the Church stuff at Pentecost is, again, contrary to what Scripture says, in favour of what a Church Council decides. The nascent church came into its own after Acts 15, prior to that Jews and Christians began to worship together as one congregation, hence the Council of Jerusalem and the letter sent out to Gentiles.
It is unfortunate that, in providing 'evidence' in favour of changing one part of scripture, the same 'evidence' shows another part of scripture, also altered by man.
PS In regard to your opening comment I would not expect you to be able to point out the 'errors' in your understanding of the Bible regarding Easter, ignoring the fact of which day Yeshua was hanged on the cross. None of them, as with vs 39 in this thread, have anything to do with a direct translation of language. The 'errors' exist because most versions of the Bible are based on the KJV and so 'errors' are just carried through the ages, as with vs 39 to a certain extent; no one questions how the writer of the additional verse (39) knew what Yeshua meant at the time he spoke vs 38 - it was obviously written back into the text to force a connection to what took place after Yeshua died.
Last edited:
Upvote
0