Where is the record of God creating Homosexuals in the Creation Account?

[Phinehas2]

Dear Liz,

Who has argued that homosexuals are not men and women?

Not me all I am saying is we can see God created men and woman, homosexual is the sexual desires of men and woman and God didn’t create that as God created woman and man to be united.

 

[CaDan]

*pokes head in*

Back to special pleading, I see. Somebody wanna pull the Humpty-Dumpty quote? I don't have a copy saved on this computer.

 

[stumpjumper]

Dear Stumpjumper,
So if you are suggesting the Bible might not be correct why are you bothered?

I'm not suggesting the Bible is incorrect or that people who disagree with me disbelieve the Bible either as that seems to be your forte.

What I am suggesting is that both your grammar, logic, and your exegesis is obviously flawed.

God created man and woman, not homosexuals, He created man and woman to be in union so He obviously didn’t create homosexuals who are people who don’t want to be in man woman union.

Homosexuals are, not exclusively, people. People come in two sexes: male and female.

Since God created men and women and homosexuals can be a man or a woman, God created homosexuals. By the use of deductive logic, that is self-evident.

So I cant see how you can assume God might have created something opposite to what he created?

So if only people who are currently living in a union between man and woman qualify as being created, what of celibates, widows or widowers, or those two young to yet marry? Are they also not created?

And I might add the OP puts the onus on you to show where in the record God is supposed to have created homosexuals, the whole false basis of all the arguments.

I think that's a flawed and loaded premise to begin with as the creation accounts are neither exhaustive nor are they literal history. I would add that there are many things that we are do that are a part of God's vision for humanity that are not included in the creation accounts.

Its very clear, no mention of homosexual and there wont be as God created man to be united with woman, the very opposite to the homosexual concept.

There's also no mention of many God willed vocations or paths either. Can you find where God may will or desire celibate and penniless lives of servitude in the name of Christ for some within the creation accounts?

Good luck.

 

[Crazy Liz]

*pokes head in*

Back to special pleading, I see. Somebody wanna pull the Humpty-Dumpty quote? I don't have a copy saved on this computer.

You mean this one?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Polycarp1,

The point, dear Phinehas, is not whether any of the assumptions I made based on vocabulary, cultural context, allusions, etc., may be valid.

This is the point, they are assumptions. The meaning of the words are clear enough in the sentences and the context. The translations to these words in the context are clear enough.

We're agreed that Paul says that arsenokaites (among others) shall not inherit the Kingdom; we disagree on what Paul meant by that word.

Hang on, I don’t disagree with the Bible version translations for arsenokoites and this is just one condemnation of same-sex sex. You don’t seem to have an issue with the translation of the other words… why not?

And you are no more an authority on God's inward thoughts and judgment than I am.

That’s just your opinion, but you don’t acknowledge what God word says about His thoughts on the subject, in any place in the Bible so far given.

Look. You may disagree with me all you want. But when you post here in flat, unnuanced terms that I am guilty of "massive disbelieve" and "disbelief in Scripture," you are crossing not only the bounds of good taste and honest debate but the rules of this board and the commandments of God.

Sorry but that’s the way I see it. flat rank disbelief of what the Bible actually says and clearly means. Indeed the position I take is taken by millions of Christians worldwide and in the statements for example of the Anglican Communion’s Lambeth 1.10. I .suggest if you don’t like personal observations you cease suggesting what is written is somehow just an interpretation.

I seek to follow His will as summarized in the teachings of Christ according to the guidance of my clergy, my own studies, the advice of those I respect in the faith, and the leading of prayer.

Ok that’s up to you, I am saying on this issue of same-sex unions your views aren’t following His will because His will in creation is man and woman in union, not man and man or woman and man Genesis 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5 etc and that same-sex unions are error, Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 6, Rom 1, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.
If you can show from scripture where same-sex unions are countenanced and therefore His will then do so.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Stumpjumper,

I'm not suggesting the Bible is incorrect

so why did you write if the Bible is correct? If you believe it is correct you wouldn’t put ‘if’ If suggests it might not be.

What I am suggesting is that both your grammar, logic, and your exegesis is obviously flawed.

And as I am referring to the Bible quotes saying what they say as the truth that means you see the Bible as flawed, which is my whole point.

God created man and woman, not homosexuals, He created man and woman to be in union so He obviously didn’t create homosexuals who are people who don’t want to be in man woman union.

Homosexuals are, not exclusively, people. People come in two sexes: male and female.

Which is what I said God created man and woman, but God created man and woman to be united, so that’s not homosexual, unless you are saying homosexual is a desire to be in man/woman union. Sorry I think its your grammar logic and eisegesis that is flawed.

Since God created men and women and homosexuals can be a man or a woman, God created homosexuals. By the use of deductive logic, that is self-evident.

God created man and woman to be united, homosexuals aren’t men and woman united. So God didn’t create homosexuals. Homosexual isnt mention in scripture it is a modern ungodly concept.

So if only people who are currently living in a union between man and woman qualify as being created, what of celibates, widows or widowers, or those two young to yet marry? Are they also not created?

Well don’t ask refer to the word of God to see God’s purposes. In the beginning God created them male and female it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh. Jesus also says not everyone can accept this for some are celibates. See 1 Cor 7, Celibacy is mentioned and countenanced, man/woman marriage union is countenanced, same-sex unions are condemned, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

I would add that there are many things that we are do that are a part of God's vision for humanity that are not included in the creation accounts.

But we can be sure same-sex unions aren’t part of God’s plan because they are opposite to what is mentioned in the creation accounts.

There's also no mention

Well I am not interested in what there is no mention of, I can give you some other perversions like same-sex unions that aren’t mentioned as well.

I dont need luck I need faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[IamRedeemed]

I choose Christ

I choose to face persecution and ostracism in the world, in the work place and face excommunication by family as well as possible imprisonment, fines or death because of my choice for Christ.

I choose to believe God's Word over philosophies of men, and preach it, which will also cause me to face ostracism and persecution even from some who also claim to followers of Christ.

Yes I would willingly set myself up for a life time of aloneness through my choice for Christ if that's what it takes because this life is but a vapor and eternity is forever and if I choose to follow after the will of my flesh, I will die, but if I crucify my flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit and choose to follow after the Spirit I shall live. (Romans 8:13-14)

Matthew 16:24-26
Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake
shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? "

Luke 9:23-26
And he said to them all, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. "

Mark 8:34-38
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them,
"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's,
the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory
of his Father with the holy angels."

Matthew 10:34-39
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follow after me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it."

I choose to be gay


I choose to face possible ostracism in my church and my work place because of my sexual orientation


I choose to stay celibate forsaking a signifigant other because I cant face the thought of allowing a man close to me, but cant reconcile same sex attraction and being a christian......


Yes I would willingly set myself up for a life time of aloneness through choice. Sorry but the statement is absurd. If being gay was a choice, seriously I'd choose heterosexuality in an instance

 

[IamRedeemed]

Dear Stumpjumper,
so why did you write if the Bible is correct? If you believe it is correct you wouldn’t put ‘if’ If suggests it might not be.

And as I am referring to the Bible quotes saying what they say as the truth that means you see the Bible as flawed, which is my whole point.

God created man and woman, not homosexuals, He created man and woman to be in union so He obviously didn’t create homosexuals who are people who don’t want to be in man woman union.


Which is what I said God created man and woman, but God created man and woman to be united, so that’s not homosexual, unless you are saying homosexual is a desire to be in man/woman union. Sorry I think its your grammar logic and eisegesis that is flawed.

God created man and woman to be united, homosexuals aren’t men and woman united. So God didn’t create homosexuals. Homosexual isnt mention in scripture it is a modern ungodly concept.

Well don’t ask refer to the word of God to see God’s purposes. In the beginning God created them male and female it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh. Jesus also says not everyone can accept this for some are celibates. See 1 Cor 7, Celibacy is mentioned and countenanced, man/woman marriage union is countenanced, same-sex unions are condemned, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

But we can be sure same-sex unions aren’t part of God’s plan because they are opposite to what is mentioned in the creation accounts.

Well I am not interested in what there is no mention of, I can give you some other perversions like same-sex unions that aren’t mentioned as well.

I dont need luck I need faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Criada]

I choose Christ

I choose to face persecution and ostracism in the world, in the work place and face excommunication by family as well as possible imprisonment, fines or death because of my choice for Christ.

I choose to believe God's Word over philosophies of men, and preach it, which will also cause me to face ostracism and persecution even from some who also claim to followers of Christ.

Yes I would willingly set myself up for a life time of aloneness through my choice for Christ if that's what it takes because this life is but a vapor and eternity is forever and if I choose to follow after the will of my flesh, I will die, but if I crucify my flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit and choose to follow after the Spirit I shall live.

You are missing the sarcasm, I think, IAR!

Yes.. we choose Christ, and accept the consequences of that choice.
But... why would we choose to be gay.. particularly those of us who agree with you that it is in opposition to God's perfect will.... why would we choose something that precludes us from ever having a fulfilling relationship? Yes, I choose that, because of my choice to follow Christ.
But it would be a lot easier to do so as a heterosexual!
We did not choose this!!!!
Some have found a peace with it, some have found joy in it... for many of us it brings nothing but pain. And being castigated by those who are fortunate enough not to have to fight their nature in this way is rubbing salt into the wound.

So, think, please, before you condemn people.

 

[Crazy Liz]

You are missing the sarcasm, I think, IAR!

Yes.. we choose Christ, and accept the consequences of that choice.
But... why would we choose to be gay.. particularly those of us who agree with you that it is in opposition to God's perfect will.... why would we choose something that precludes us from ever having a fulfilling relationship? Yes, I choose that, because of my choice to follow Christ.
But it would be a lot easier to do so as a heterosexual!
We did not choose this!!!!
Some have found a peace with it, some have found joy in it... for many of us it brings nothing but pain. And being castigated by those who are fortunate enough not to have to fight their nature in this way is rubbing salt into the wound.

So, think, please, before you condemn people.

 

[David Brider]

God created man and woman to be united, homosexuals aren’t men and woman united. So God didn’t create homosexuals.

So who did?

David.

 

[stumpjumper]

Dear Stumpjumper,
so why did you write if the Bible is correct? If you believe it is correct you wouldn’t put ‘if’ If suggests it might not be. [

That's how you phrase an argument my dear Phinehas.

I understand that this particular forum is basically the poster child for poorly framed and worded arguments but that doesn't mean that we can't reach higher.

To make an argument, you build from your premises to your conclusions. If your premises are correct and your conclusion logically follows, then you have a sound argument. It's possible that the premise of "the Bible is inerrant" is incorrect but that doesn't really matter as for the sake of argument I accept that it is correct.

Regardless, though, you need to frame your argument in such a manner that shows that if your premise is correct your conclusion follows.

IOW

P-1
P-2
P-3

~

Conclusion.

IF your premises are correct P-1 through P-3, then your conclusion is valid if it follows.

And as I am referring to the Bible quotes saying what they say as the truth that means you see the Bible as flawed, which is my whole point.

No.

I am saying that your interpretation or exegesis is what is flawed not the Bible.

God created man and woman, not homosexuals, He created man and woman to be in union so He obviously didn’t create homosexuals who are people who don’t want to be in man woman union.

P-1: God created all people male and female he created them.
P-2: Homosexuals are people and they may be male or female.

C: God created homosexuals. QED

Which premise do you disagree with?

God created man and woman to be united, homosexuals aren’t men and woman united. So God didn’t create homosexuals. Homosexual isnt mention in scripture it is a modern ungodly concept.

From your obviously flawed logic, then, celibate Catholic Priests are also not a part of God's creation because they do not exist in a male-female sexual union.

Shall we keep going?

Well don’t ask refer to the word of God to see God’s purposes. In the beginning God created them male and female it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh. Jesus also says not everyone can accept this for some are celibates. See 1 Cor 7, Celibacy is mentioned and countenanced, man/woman marriage union is countenanced, same-sex unions are condemned, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

Where in the creation accounts is celibacy mentioned?

But we can be sure same-sex unions aren’t part of God’s plan because they are opposite to what is mentioned in the creation accounts.

Following this logic we can also be sure that celibate Priests and nuns, widows and widowers, and unmarried or pre-married people are also not a part of God's plan because they are not what is mentioned in the creation accounts.

Shall we keep going?

Well I am not interested in what there is no mention of, I can give you some other perversions like same-sex unions that aren’t mentioned as well.

Well if you are not interested in what "there is no mention of" then why are you defending a thread titled "Where is it mentioned in the Creation Accounts...?

Celibacy isn't mentioned either so that must also be a perversion as well, eh?

 

[Crazy Liz]

God created man and woman to be united, homosexuals aren’t men and woman united. So God didn’t create homosexuals.

You said this in a post where you also talked quite a bit about logic and grammar, so please help us understand your logic and grammar.

If the statement quoted above is true, is the following also true?

"God created man and woman to be united, celibates aren’t men and woman united. So God didn’t create celibates."

The logic and grammar are identical. Do you think both statements are true, neither statement is true, or one is true and the other false?

If one is true and the other false, can you explain the distinction through logic and grammar?

If you need something other than logic and grammar, please confine your outside evidence to the biblical creation account, since that is the condition imposed by the OP.

 

[Tenebrae]

well done, you missed the point entirely


Bravo

I choose Christ

I choose to face persecution and ostracism in the world, in the work place and face excommunication by family as well as possible imprisonment, fines or death because of my choice for Christ.

I choose to believe God's Word over philosophies of men, and preach it, which will also cause me to face ostracism and persecution even from some who also claim to followers of Christ.

Yes I would willingly set myself up for a life time of aloneness through my choice for Christ if that's what it takes because this life is but a vapor and eternity is forever and if I choose to follow after the will of my flesh, I will die, but if I crucify my flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit and choose to follow after the Spirit I shall live. (Romans 8:13-14)

Matthew 16:24-26
Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake
shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? "

Luke 9:23-26
And he said to them all, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. "

Mark 8:34-38
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them,
"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's,
the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory
of his Father with the holy angels."

Matthew 10:34-39
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follow after me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it."

 

[Tenebrae]

Give the woman a cigar, or a medal, or something else that marks the serious awesomeness of what she has posted.


Yes IAR, you missed the sarcasm in a big way. If being gay was a choice, I would chose hetrosexuality in an instance

Well said Sis reps coming your way

You are missing the sarcasm, I think, IAR!

Yes.. we choose Christ, and accept the consequences of that choice.
But... why would we choose to be gay.. particularly those of us who agree with you that it is in opposition to God's perfect will.... why would we choose something that precludes us from ever having a fulfilling relationship? Yes, I choose that, because of my choice to follow Christ.
But it would be a lot easier to do so as a heterosexual!
We did not choose this!!!!
Some have found a peace with it, some have found joy in it... for many of us it brings nothing but pain. And being castigated by those who are fortunate enough not to have to fight their nature in this way is rubbing salt into the wound.

So, think, please, before you condemn people.

 

[Floatingaxe]

JOY in perversion? Hardly. I suppose reprobation has its comforts...however fleeting and fleshly. Enjoy your sin in this life, then, because when it's over there will be a rather rude awakening. Any "joy" that is found in sin is one's only temporary reward--and it will be the extent of it---there won't be any rewards after death...only the judgment of God. Squandering the truth one has been so liberally given, choosing instead to believe lies, negates one's blessed reward in Jesus Christ.

 

[Crazy Liz]

JOY in perversion? Hardly. I suppose reprobation has its comforts...however fleeting and fleshly. Enjoy your sin in this life, then, because when it's over there will be a rather rude awakening. Any "joy" that is found in sin is one's only temporary reward--there won't be any rewards after death...only the judgment of God.

Huh?

First read for comprehension, then think before you post.

You are missing the sarcasm, I think, IAR!

Yes.. we choose Christ, and accept the consequences of that choice.
But... why would we choose to be gay.. particularly those of us who agree with you that it is in opposition to God's perfect will.... why would we choose something that precludes us from ever having a fulfilling relationship? Yes, I choose that, because of my choice to follow Christ.
But it would be a lot easier to do so as a heterosexual!
We did not choose this!!!!
Some have found a peace with it, some have found joy in it... for many of us it brings nothing but pain. And being castigated by those who are fortunate enough not to have to fight their nature in this way is rubbing salt into the wound.

So, think, please, before you condemn people.

 

[OllieFranz]

Dear Stumpjumper,
so why did you write if the Bible is correct? If you believe it is correct you wouldn’t put ‘if’ If suggests it might not be.

No, an "if - then" statement is a logical rule.

In formal logic, a syllogism is constructed as follows:
a --> b
a
ergo b

This could be translated into English as "The truth of a implies the truth of b; a is true; therefore b is true," but for historical reasons is usually translated as: "If statement a is true, then statement b is also true; Statement a is, indeed, true; Therefore statement b is true."

This is not the first time you assumed that an if-then statement "suggested" that the arguer doubted the truth of "statement a."

If you are so ignorant of even the basics of constructing an argument, perhaps you should take a class, or read a book and educate yourself. Your local librarian will be glad to help you. When you clearly do not know the rules, you do your side a disservice when you try to argue against those rules as if they were the substance of the debate rather than the form.

 

[CaDan]

Huh?

It's just another pretender to the White Throne of Judgment.

 

[IamRedeemed]

I didn't miss the sarcasm Criada, but what I did point out is that
people are willing to undergo persecution and alienation for things
they are not willing to let go of, things they want to keep, or things they believe in.

And I would beg to differ that some who claim Christ are willing to accept
those things that come with it as that explains their need to rewrite God's Word
to suit themselves and raising up teachers to preach to their itching ears what they
would rather hear as they will no longer endure sound doctrine according to 2 Tim 4:3-4

If you talk to homosexuals that will be honest, the truth is, the majority are not happy about their situation. There are very few who, if they are being honest, are "content" as homosexuals. They know in their consciences that it is wrong. They don't need society to tell them that. They hate and condemn themselves without even knowing what God's Word says. Some kill themselves because they hate it so much, and do not realize there is absolutely a way out, because the stronghold of sexual addiction, just like a drug addiction, and alcoholism is demonic in nature and grips their very souls.
There is a war going on deep within them, and that war only becomes more intense when they hear
the truth of the Word of God, and make a choice to repent and turn to Jesus. The war is immensely
increased between their flesh and their newly reborn spirit.

I do not appreciate your regular accusations of me condemning anyone though I must mention, as you do so without any substantiation for your claims whatsoever. I would like for you to substantiate your claims and quote where it is that I have ever condemned anyone.

I believe that you believe if anyone says homosexuality is a sin or points out that God condemns it in His Word, then they are condemning the people who covet the sin, which is not true.

The truth is there is hope and healing. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says, "and such WERE some of you."
God is able to do exceedingly abundantly even more than we can ask or imagine, but we first
must put our trust and faith in Him, and repent of those things that we are practicing no matter what they are, that He has shown us clearly in His Word, are displeasing in His sight. But if we keep claiming the sin stain is upon us, (or worse, begin to reject that it is sin at all) we cannot be cleansed of it, because we continue to take ownership of it rather than leave it at the foot of the cross.

If a person murders someone and comes to the saving knowledge of Christ and repents, and is cleansed from his sin, but keeps referring to himself as a murderer, the chances of him killing again, are high.
Because in essence he still believes he is what he was. Do you understand what I am saying?

Those you are calling "heterosexual" may not have had any struggle with that particular temptation, but don't pretend that ALL Christians have never had any struggles or major bondages or strongholds to overcome in their lives once they couldn't get around the fact that God condemned it, whatever IT is. That is lame really. Homosexuality is a stronghold, there is no doubt about it. And of course the enemy is going to tempt ANY of us in an area he knows we have a weakness. What enemy wouldn't? But each time you overcome him, by the blood of the lamb and the word of your testimony, you get stronger and so on and so on until you are an overcomer in Christ. The enemy can no longer effectively tempt one who has overcome. Doesn't mean he won't crouch at your door here and there just to see if there might be an opening to get you all bound up again, as I am most positive he will. But for the one who has overcome, if they are aware that the enemy will come, having their armor of God on (Ephesians 6:11-17), they will quench the fiery darts of the wicked with their shield of faith and cut his lies up with the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

You are missing the sarcasm, I think, IAR!

Yes.. we choose Christ, and accept the consequences of that choice.
But... why would we choose to be gay.. particularly those of us who agree with you that it is in opposition to God's perfect will.... why would we choose something that precludes us from ever having a fulfilling relationship? Yes, I choose that, because of my choice to follow Christ.
But it would be a lot easier to do so as a heterosexual!
We did not choose this!!!!
Some have found a peace with it, some have found joy in it... for many of us it brings nothing but pain. And being castigated by those who are fortunate enough not to have to fight their nature in this way is rubbing salt into the wound.

So, think, please, before you condemn people.

Give the woman a cigar, or a medal, or something else that marks the serious awesomeness of what she has posted.


Yes IAR, you missed the sarcasm in a big way. If being gay was a choice, I would chose hetrosexuality in an instance

Well said Sis reps coming your way