Where is the record of God creating Homosexuals in the Creation Account?

Polycarp1 · Jun 4, 2008

Angel4Truth said:
A wombs purpose is the same if it doesnt work. A legs purpose doesnt change if it is lame or non existant for whatever reason. The purpose of marriage doesnt change because someone doesnt choose to engage in it or get divorced or widowed.

Very nicely put. No: what is "the purpose of marriage"?

And, further, what does that have to do with the question that IAmRedeemed raised way back in the OP, about the record of God creating gay people?

And while we're at it, what about a little girl playing house, pretending that she's a grown-up lady with a husband (a boy she's shanghaied into playing with her) and children (her dolls)? Is she or is she not heterosexual at that point? Why or why not? (That's more than a diversion -- I suspect we're using the terms differently, and upsetting each other by misunderstanding each other's statements.)

tulc · Jun 4, 2008

I looked over your post MercyBurst and thought somethings could stand highlighting, I hope you don't mind:
First there was this quote:

The degree in which sexuality can change varies from person to person. The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health has said "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time."[10] Research by Lisa Diamond has shown the sexual orientation is more fluid among bisexual women than lesbians.[11]

But here's the whole quote:

In his 1985 book The Bisexual Option, Fritz Klein developed a scale to test his theory that sexual orientation is a "dynamic, multi-variable process" — dynamic in that it may change over time, and multi-variable in that it is composed of various elements, both sexual and non-sexual. Klein took into account sexual attraction, sexual behavior, sexual fantasies, emotional and social partners, lifestyle, and self-identification. Each of these variables was measured for the person's past, present, and ideal.[9]
The degree in which sexuality can change varies from person to person. The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health has said "For some people, sexual orientation is continuous and fixed throughout their lives. For others, sexual orientation may be fluid and change over time."[10] Research by Lisa Diamond has shown the sexual orientation is more fluid among bisexual women than lesbians.[11]
Other organizations disagree with Fritz Klein. The American Psychological Association has stated that homosexuality "is not changeable."[12] In 2001, the United States Surgeon General David Satcher issued a report maintaining that "there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed."[13] On the other hand, it is also conceivable that while sexual orientation is fluid on its own it cannot be consciously manipulated.

Hmmm not as cut and dry as you seemed to imply (did you notice in the very quote you used some people never change their orientation at all?)
Your next quote:

Kinsey himself avoided and disapproved of using terms like homosexual or heterosexual to describe individuals, asserting that sexuality is prone to change over time, and that sexual behavior can be understood both as physical contact as well as purely psychological phenomena (desire, sexual attraction, fantasy).

but looking at the whole quote from Kinsey it again would seem it's not as cut and dry:

Probably the most widely cited part of the Kinsey Reports regard the prevalence of different sexual orientations — especially to support a claim that 10% of the population is gay. In fact, the findings are not so straightforward, and Kinsey himself avoided and disapproved of using terms like homosexual or heterosexual to describe individuals, asserting that sexuality is prone to change over time, and that sexual behavior can be understood both as physical contact as well as purely psychological phenomena (desire, sexual attraction, fantasy).[citation needed] Instead of three categories (heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual), a seven-category system was used. The Kinsey scale ranked sexual behavior from 0 to 6, with 0 being completely heterosexual and 6 completely homosexual. A 0 was considered to be strictly heterosexual, a 1 mostly heterosexual, a 2 more than incidentally heterosexual, a 3 equally homosexual and heterosexual, a 4 more than incidentally homosexual, and so on. An additional category 7 was created by his colleagues for asexuals, ‘those who experienced no sexual desire.
The reports also state that nearly 46% of the male subjects had "reacted" sexually to persons of both sexes in the course of their adult lives, and 37% had at least one homosexual experience.[5] 11.6% of white males (ages 20-35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) throughout their adult lives.[6] The study also reported that 10% of American males surveyed were "more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55" (in the 5 to 6 range).[7]
7% of single females (ages 20-35) and 4% of previously married females (ages 20-35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) on the 7-point Kinsey Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale for this period of their lives.[8] 2 to 6% of females, aged 20-35, were more or less exclusively homosexual in experience/response,[9] and 1 to 3% of unmarried females aged 20-35 were exclusively homosexual in experience/response.[10]

Notice the "exclusively homosexual for at least 3 years" part? On the whole the articles you posted were interesting but again not what the OP asked. Who created humans (of which Gays, Lesbians, and the Trans Gendered are a part) if it wasn't God?
tulc(still waiting for an answer)

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

stumpjumper said:
Who created/formed Jeremiah who was born a sinner?

The Book of the Prophet Jeremiah, Chapter 1, Verse 5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Who doesn't believe scripture?

stumpjumper said:
Jim

When I stated that God creates sinners you wrote:

I expect you to either post proof that God only creates non-sinners (or sinless people) or retract your false accusation.

Jeremiah doesnt apply to the OP question since adam and eve were created without sin and the question posed by the OP deals with a perfect creation as that is what is represented in Genesis.

Can you show from the creation account anything that says adam and eve were born sinful? If not then you are not contrasting with proper verses to the real situation presented by the OP. Mankind was not created sinful to begin with - sin came because of mans (and womans) actions.

CaDan · Jun 4, 2008

Angel4Truth said:
Jeremiah doesnt apply to the OP question since adam and eve were created without sin and the question posed by the OP deals with a perfect creation as that is what is represented in Genesis.

Can you show from the creation account anything that says adam and eve were born sinful? If not then you are not contrasting with proper verses to the real situation presented by the OP. Mankind was not created sinful to begin with - sin came because of mans (and womans) actions.

Is that in the quoted passage? No?

stumpjumper · Jun 4, 2008

Angel4Truth said:
Jeremiah doesnt apply to the OP question since adam and eve were created without sin and the question posed by the OP deals with a perfect creation as that is what is represented in Genesis.

Can you show from the creation account anything that says adam and eve were born sinful? If not then you are not contrasting with proper verses to the real situation presented by the OP. Mankind was not created sinful to begin with - sin came because of mans (and womans) actions.

So you concede, then, that God does indeed create, now, homosexuals and sinners?

I need an answer, yes or no, before I proceed.

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

CaDan read the OP discussing the creation of adam and eve - they were created without sin. So then a sinner was not created by God in the creation account. I mean some want to be literal so literally by both the name of this thread and the OP discussion - God didnt create homosexuals in the creation account, nor liars, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc..

Mankind became those things themselves because of sin.

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

Stumpjumper no. Eve was made for adam not for another woman and we are talking about the creation account so the answer is - NO - God did not create homosexuals in the creation account in genesis - none are shown and none are present and mankind was created without any sin at all or sin nature in the creation account . Now cannot get more literal than that.

stumpjumper · Jun 4, 2008

Angel4Truth said:
Stumpjumper no. Eve was made for adam not for another woman and we are talking about the creation account so the answer is - NO - God did not create homosexuals in the creation account in genesis - none are shown and none are present and mankind was created without any sin at all or sin nature in the creation account . Now cannot get more literal than that.

That does not answer the question.

Did God create Jeremiah, a born sinner, in his mother's womb?

Does God create homosexuals?

A yes or no answer to each of those questions would be helpful.

~ I understand the need to talk about Genesis but the Bible has MANY more books and it would be helpful if we could answer a few direct questions from time to time~

Thank you.

IamRedeemed · Jun 4, 2008

Exactly. As has been pointed out before on more than one
occasion by more than one person, including myself.

The creation account reveals God's PERFECT creation, plan
and purpose for mankind.

What is recorded in the creation account, which is posted in the OP,
ALL occurred PRIOR to the fall, so once again, this point is being emphasized for those who fail to concede that the factors they are using for calculations are faulty as they are not a part of the equation, and the sooner they concede that their efforts to twist the OP question as well as the contents of the OP to suit their red herring
the better.

Angel4Truth said:
Jeremiah doesnt apply to the OP question since adam and eve were created without sin and the question posed by the OP deals with a perfect creation as that is what is represented in Genesis.

Can you show from the creation account anything that says adam and eve were born sinful? If not then you are not contrasting with proper verses to the real situation presented by the OP. Mankind was not created sinful to begin with - sin came because of mans (and womans) actions.

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

stumpjumper said:
That does not answer the question.

Did God create Jeremiah, a born sinner, in his mother's womb?

Does God create homosexuals?

A yes or no answer to each of those questions would be helpful.

~ I understand the need to talk about Genesis but the Bible has MANY more books and it would be helpful if we could answer a few direct questions from time to time~

Thank you.

Stumpjumper you are asking a different question than that of the op that you have insisted needs to be followed and what started yours and my exchange.

My answer adresses the OP - you keep posing off topic issues.

tulc · Jun 4, 2008

CaDan read the OP discussing the creation of adam and eve - they were created without sin. So then a sinner was not created by God in the creation account. I mean some want to be literal so literally by both the name of this thread and the OP discussion - God didnt create homosexuals in the creation account, nor liars, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc..

Mankind became those things themselves because of sin.

Must admit this does make it simpler since God didn't create any of us sinners. Of course you know the next question, right? Who DID create us then?
tulc(thought you were picking on gay people but sees now you don't seem to think any of us were made in Gods image)

CaDan · Jun 4, 2008

Angel4Truth said:
CaDan read the OP discussing the creation of adam and eve - they were created without sin. So then a sinner was not created by God in the creation account. I mean some want to be literal so literally by both the name of this thread and the OP discussion - God didnt create homosexuals in the creation account, nor liars, thieves, murderers, rapists, etc..

Mankind became those things themselves because of sin.

That is not in the quoted passage.

You are attempting to reframe the actual argument presented. The actual argument relies on exactly one passage and no other. That passage does not mention sin at all.

Jim47 · Jun 4, 2008

stumpjumper said:
That does not answer the question.

Did God create Jeremiah, a born sinner, in his mother's womb?

Does God create homosexuals?

A yes or no answer to each of those questions would be helpful.

~ I understand the need to talk about Genesis but the Bible has MANY more books and it would be helpful if we could answer a few direct questions from time to time~

Thank you.

You've already been given answers many times and from more books then Genesis, but you refuse to believe anything you are told, so why keep asking?

IamRedeemed · Jun 4, 2008

Your question is formulated by attempting to calculate and apply "after the fall" factors
into the creation account (prior to the fall) which reveals God's intended purposes
for mankind. What you are presenting continually is nothing more than a red herring,
and is not following the OP, (which also makes it a non sequitur as well.)

stumpjumper said:
That does not answer the question.

Did God create Jeremiah, a born sinner, in his mother's womb?

Does God create homosexuals?

A yes or no answer to each of those questions would be helpful.

~ I understand the need to talk about Genesis but the Bible has MANY more books and it would be helpful if we could answer a few direct questions from time to time~

Thank you.

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

Tulc reread this - Where is the record of God creating Homosexuals in the Creation Account?

Are we created in the creation account? no

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

CaDan said:
That is not in the quoted passage.

You are attempting to reframe the actual argument presented. The actual argument relies on exactly one passage and no other. That passage does not mention sin at all.

thread title and question posed by the OP

Where is the record of God creating Homosexuals in the Creation Account?

stumpjumper · Jun 4, 2008

Angel4Truth said:
Stumpjumper you are asking a different question than that of the op that you have insisted needs to be followed and what started yours and my exchange.

My answer adresses the OP - you keep posing off topic issues.

Well then we should probably be in Origins Theology since nobody, now, wants to talk about any part of creation after the "dawn of creation"...

We could talk about why lots of created things aren't in Genesis, then

~ this crazy thread wanders in all sorts of topics ~

CaDan · Jun 4, 2008

Angel4Truth said:
Stumpjumper you are asking a different question than that of the op that you have insisted needs to be followed and what started yours and my exchange.

My answer adresses the OP - you keep posing off topic issues.

Really? Where is sin in the passage in the OP?

Point it out. Now.

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

stumpjumper said:
Well then we should probably be in Origins Theology since nobody, now, wants to talk about any part of creation after the "dawn of creation"...

We could talk about why lots of created things aren't in Genesis, then

~ this crazy thread wanders in all sorts of topics ~

The point of the OP is to point out what was intended from creation when man and woman were made perfect before God. Dont know why thats so hard to get in this thread. (i can guess though)

Angel4Truth · Jun 4, 2008

CaDan said:
Really? Where is sin in the passage in the OP?

Point it out. Now.

Its not there - thats the point they had none in the creation account it had not happened yet. oh and CaDan - I am not a steak - you do not order me - get it? Good.

Where is the record of God creating Homosexuals in the Creation Account?

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