Where is the record of God creating Homosexuals in the Creation Account?

ChaliceThunder said:

Baseball is not a part of this debate, CaDan!

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Well, when the underlying argument is based upon heresy and fallacy, you can derive just about anything from it.

Angel4Truth said:

If you dont beleive that Elton John or better Reginald Kenneth Dwight was once a heterosexual then you dont know anything about the man. He was also married to a woman.

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This only belies your simplistic understanding of sexuality and orientation...which is really more a MISunderstanding. Many gay men marry to "fit in." If you refuse to admit this, you refuse to accept truth into your life.

Angel4Truth said:

We develop all kinds of sinful desires throughout our lives and anyone who denies that denies their own conscience.

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I think it's time you started speaking for yourself - and yourself alone.


This whole discussion needs a whole bunch of "I" statements.

Angel4Truth said:

Everyone isnt always "gay" or attracted to members of the same sex all of their lives - there are tons of instances where it happened later in life as stated by the people themselves and again if you read through the thread someone in my own household did the same. I know you wont agree but I asked them with my own mouth and I have been around many many gay people who i have also discussed it with.

Im willing to bet this known also but wishes to be denied because it flies in the face of the truth. God doesnt make people sin - they do it themselves.

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By what authority do you make any of these absurd statements???

Angel4Truth said:

Everyone isnt always "gay" or attracted to members of the same sex all of their lives - there are tons of instances where it happened later in life as stated by the people themselves and again if you read through the thread someone in my own household did the same

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I choose to be gay


I choose to face possible ostracism in my church and my work place because of my sexual orientation


I choose to stay celibate forsaking a signifigant other because I cant face the thought of allowing a man close to me, but cant reconcile same sex attraction and being a christian......


Yes I would willingly set myself up for a life time of aloneness through choice. Sorry but the statement is absurd. If being gay was a choice, seriously I'd choose heterosexuality in an instance

Tenebrae said:

I choose to be gay


I choose to face possible ostracism in my church and my work place because of my sexual orientation


I choose to stay celibate forsaking a signifigant other because I cant face the thought of allowing a man close to me, but cant reconcile same sex attraction and being a christian......


Yes I would willingly set myself up for a life time of aloneness through choice. Sorry but the statement is absurd. If being gay was a choice, seriously I'd choose heterosexuality in an instance

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If you want to bounce your ideas in a safe and sane environment - PM me.

IamRedeemed said:

No one chooses to be an alcoholic either.
But God did not direct their path to alcoholism and neither does He orchestrate a person to live a life bound to homosexuality and He condemns both fyi.

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Being homosexual is not the same thing as living a life bound to homosexuality.

Indeed, the question you posed in the OP (AIUI) was not whether God creates people as homosexuals, but whether God creates homosexuals.

There is quite a difference between those two points of view. Whatever one believes about the first possibility, I'd say that the only possible opinion that's consistent with Scripture is that God creates all people, including homosexuals.

(And yes, I realise you've got me set on ignore, for whatever reasons I can't even begin to guess. But meh. Someone else do me a favour and quote this post so IAR can see it, plz.)

David.

Angel4Truth said:

Yes it does when it defines why eve was made - read it again and note the verses quoted - it mentions man and woman and what they are for pretty clearly.

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That's not actually talking about sexual orientation, though. It's not even talking about sex per se. It's stated that God creates Eve because "it is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him" (Genesis 2:18) - nothing to do with sexual orientation or sex. Genesis 2:24 is sometimes cited as being a verse in opposition to homosexual orientation and/or marriage ("for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh"), but as has been pointed out, whilst it's describing a scenario it's not saying "and this is the only way it can possibly be" or anything along those lines.

Angel4Truth said:

ChaliceThunder said:

The OP is indeed an attempt to dehumanize those of us who are lgbt - there is no getting around it.

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I dont see that - i see attempts to pretend that is what it does in order to justify bashing the OP person because their stance isnt liked.

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By suggesting that homosexuals are possibly not part of God's creation, the implication is that they not human. Yes, that's dehumanising then. Whether that's IAmRedeemed's intention or not, I can't say, but that's the possibility that she raised in the OP.

And personally, I'm not interested in bashing IAmRedeemed or anyone else round here. But if I disagree with her position or anyone else's position, I'll state my objections to it clearly. That's the nature of a debate forum.

Angel4Truth said:

Authoring a person and authoring their actions arent the same.

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Being homosexual isn't an action. It's possible for God to make people gay, and that says nothing about their actions.

David.

Angel4Truth said:

God made people. People become and act on "gay" themselves.

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Well, that's certainly something that's been asserted time and again. Trouble is, it's not something that's stated in Scripture, and neither is it in keeping with the experiences of the many gay men and women the world over who, rather than "becoming gay themselves", realise that they're gay, normally around puberty, i.e. the same time in their lives that heterosexual people realise that they're straight. This doesn't necessarily point to sexual orientation being innate (it could still be the result of nature or nurture or some combination of both), but it seems to rule out the possibility of it being a deliberate choice.

David.

David Brider said:

Being homosexual is not the same thing as living a life bound to homosexuality.

Indeed, the question you posed in the OP (AIUI) was not whether God creates people as homosexuals, but whether God creates homosexuals.

There is quite a difference between those two points of view. Whatever one believes about the first possibility, I'd say that the only possible opinion that's consistent with Scripture is that God creates all people, including homosexuals.

(And yes, I realise you've got me set on ignore, for whatever reasons I can't even begin to guess. But meh. Someone else do me a favour and quote this post so IAR can see it, plz.)

David.

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Agreed

Angel4Truth said:

All of them.

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Point me to one, if all of them are.

Angel4Truth said:

All of them.

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As most people don't realise what their sexual orientation is until somewhere around their early-to-mid teens, I seriously doubt you'd be able to show me someone younger than that who was definitely heterosexual.

You're welcome to try, though.

David.

Can no one tell the difference between Gods design for man and woman and the desire of man.There are sinful desires and non sinful desires.All the laws of God are to stop man giving in to sinful desires.Controlling sinful desires is the key to following Jesus Christ.Regretfully some will be unable to comply because their hearts are hardened.God is patient and gives time for repentence.

lincolngreen50 said:

Can no one tell the difference between Gods design for man and woman and the desire of man. There are sinful desires and non sinful desires.

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Is a sexual orientation a sinful desire or a non sinful desire? Or neither? I'm not really sure it counts as a desire per se. It's a tendency to attraction.

All the laws of God are to stop man giving in to sinful desires. Controlling sinful desires is the key to following Jesus Christ.

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We can control whether we act on our desires, but that doesn't necessarily stop us having the desires in the first place.

David.

David Brider said:

As most people don't realise what their sexual orientation is until somewhere around their early-to-mid teens, I seriously doubt you'd be able to show me someone younger than that who was definitely heterosexual.

You're welcome to try, though.

David.

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While I think your basic point is valid, David, and it was my own experience that I "woke up to sex" at age 13, the fact of juvenile sexuality -- that children below puberty are sexual creatures, not in most cases in terms of overt behavior or conscious thought, but in terms of evolving the basic attitudes and feelings that will develop later. And some actually do know their sexual orientation much younger than 13-14. My older honorary grandson turned 13 last winter. He's liked girls since he was 4 -- and that includes hugging and kissing with them. He's a very affectionate, demonstrative boy, so much so that he had a short bout of being mistaken for gay last year -- fortunately, there were enough relatively mature heads among his age-peers to understand the difference between sexual attraction and friendly affection. On the other hand, it's a commonplace in the personal statements of gay people that they (many of them) knew there was 'something different about themselves' at quite young ages, from 6 to 10-11. In some cases this is just a nebulous sense of anomie, in others a definite sense of being attracted in some way to some category of people of the same sex.

(Let me also note the point a few people have made that's been picked up on in somewhat negative ways -- child molestation. That is not saying anything about the prevalence of that behavior among demographic groups. But I think it was texastig who picked up on the fact that some victims of molestation, especially if not given affirming, non-judgmental therapy, will form erroneous conclusions from their experience. E.g., boy molested by adult male discovers that what he did to him produced sexual pleasure, comes to the conclusion that he must himself be gay "or it wouldn't have felt good"; girl molested by adult male is repulsed by the experience, decides she must be Lesbian. Non-sexual close relationships while dealing with this sort of aftermath can also be strong influences on the psychosexual development of the molestee. I suspect that a fairly large percentage of "ex-gay success stories" and non-bisexuals claiming to have changed orientation are actually this sort of "false positive." (Reiterate: I am saying nothing equivalentiating homosexality and pedophilia... I am addressing the effects of molestation on pyschosexual development, and how that may affect the question you raised, David.)

Angel4Truth said:

Wrong - because God didnt make liberace act on sinful temptations.

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Well now you are shifting goalposts.

God still created Liberace as a homosexual man.

We chose to act or lay it at the cross. Lastly i dont doubt that the unlikliest people are part of His plan why even satan is used as part of His plan and is judas was used as part of His plan.

We can sin or we can lay it at the cross - dont think for one second i dont have my own i struggle with - i debate in these threads not to condemn anyone as i am also a sinner just with different ones. I come to correct the falsehood that its OK WITH GOD OR BLESSED BY GOD when its not - our sin IS SIN - its not honored and celebrated by God like so many are teaching so falsely these days.

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Skipping your free-will Baptist (Arminianist) interpretation of God's relationship to humanity, that may all be well and good from your perspective and you're entitled to that opinion but I think that's still far from the scope of the OP.

We may be able to choose many of our actions, but certainly not all and, regardless, God is still sovereign and acts over and above our actions.

You could possibly argue that Liberace chose to have gay sex and yielded to his natural inclinations as a homosexual. I don't think many people would argue against that other than maybe hyper-Calvinists or strict determinists but, even then, God still created Liberace with that nature and he played a part in God's plan.

Im sorry that you believe that God is the author of sin - i believe no such thing. Evil in my opinion is the absence of God. Its sinfulness. Its what we create in our flesh APART from God.

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I don't believe that but thank you again for putting words in other people's mouths. It is, rather, the reductio ad absurdum to YOUR argument in regards to whether or not God could have logically created Liberace as a heterosexual that paints God as the author of sin. The problem lies within the framework of the OP's argument and your defense thereof that attempts to paint homosexuality and homosexuals as creations of man. You either wander into outright dualism, deism, or a variety of shades in between.

Sin is separation from God in a way (more specifically God's will) and on that I would mildly agree with your point. I wouldn't agree to the argument that homosexuality is necessarily or inherently sinful but, regardless, the ability to sin and hence sin itself is a creation of God.

That does not mean that God authors sin, sins Himself (an oxymoron), or directly wills sin in man (all of which pretty much say the same thing) but God has, indeed, created sinners and hence sin.

You just can't get past the Sovereignty of God from a scriptural perspective:God is working through us to bring about the new heavens and a new earth and that world is characterized by self-less love, equality among God's fellow creatures, and Shalom.

We can't remove the Sovereign God from the creative process though and though we may not understand we must have faith in God's will and seek that in this life...

lincolngreen50 said:

Can no one tell the difference between Gods design for man and woman and the desire of man.There are sinful desires and non sinful desires.All the laws of God are to stop man giving in to sinful desires.Controlling sinful desires is the key to following Jesus Christ.Regretfully some will be unable to comply because their hearts are hardened.God is patient and gives time for repentence.

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You know, this is an awesomely good point (other than one minor nitpick about "all the laws of God") and I believe that any Christian, on any side of the debate. would concur.

But that may open the door to increased understanding here, of the points both sides are making. There is no doubt that Lev. 18:22, Rom. 1:26-7, etc., condemn sinful desires. The point at hand dividing the two schools of thought here is whether the sinful desires condemned in those passages include the humanly-unchangeable desires felt by people who enter into committed loving romantic-sexual same-sex relationships.

Just as a man's love for his wife, and his desire for her within the bounds of marriage and her own dignity and integrity, are not condemned by the scriptures against fornication, adultery, incest, etc., etc., is it not possible that the manifest evils God was condemning --patronizing of enslaved boy prostitutes, use of gay sex for new kicks by ennui-laden aristocrats, anal sex with the male priest of the local fertility goddess as part of pagan fertility rites, anal gang rape of strangers in town... that it was these manifest evils and not the private loving consensual conduct that aroused His ire? Ignore the human "ick factor" and try to focus on God's justice, and have in yourself the mindset with which He judges.

Dear Crazy Liz,

Perhaps, then, you can explain your argument in view of our perspective.

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If I correctly understand your argument, because Genesis does not mention sexual orientation, the statement, "God made me and I am gay" is false.

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true, God didn’t make anyone gay. He did make people black and white

God made me and I am black. etc

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true. You can see their skin is black or white. Sexual desires are not the same.

God made me and I have Down syndrome.

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God made each person and obviously God didn’t make people with disease as Jesus went round healing sickness.

As you say, it is obvious to everyone that this is not a simple question, but part of an argument.

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Its simple enough as long as one focuses on what the scripture says and not modern concepts of deviant sexual desires contrary to God’s creation purpose. In fact it couldn’t be simpler
Please keep in mind the OP question is "Where is the record of God creating Homosexuals in the Creation Account?" and not what others did God create which was the basis of your question.

Dear David Brider,

There is quite a difference between those two points of view. Whatever one believes about the first possibility, I'd say that the only possible opinion that's consistent with Scripture is that God creates all people, including homosexuals.

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Quite the opposite, whatever one believes based on the scriptures knows that God created male and female so that a man shall be united with a woman. How the modern concept of ‘homosexuals’ or ‘homosexuality’ fits in is a mystery, it seems it doesn’t which means God didn’t create homosexuals. Infact God didn’t create heterosexuals either, the concept is ungodly. But looking at the modern concept, as God created woman for man to be united that would encompass something of the modern concept of ‘heterosexual’ but not ‘homosexual’

So the creation account excludes homosexual, God didn’t create man to be sexually attracted to man, He created man to be sexually attracted to woman.
Sexual attractions to other things and same-sex came as sin and error because of the fall and disobedience.

So far we have had a lot of claims that God created homosexuals by implication that He must have done because God created all people. However that doesn’t even address the OP question where is the record in the creation account, on the contrary the scripture shows God didn’t create homosexuals. The Bible says God created man and woman, to be united, so that means He didn’t create homosexuals because homosexuals don’t want to be united man and woman. QED. To suggest God did by implication is a statement of disbelief in what the scripture says in the first place.

The answer to the implication deception is that it doesn’t say God created thieves or heterosexuals or homosexuals or anything else, yet people can be all of these, it is just that God didn’t create them to be it’s the work of disobedience and sin.