where is the rapture in the bible?

[B1inHim]

You must have missed my post: in Revelation 6 we see that souls in heaven are given the white robes. When you die your soul departs to be with the LORD (or in Hades if you're not belonging to the LORD) so the passage in Revelation 7, describing those same white robes, does not necessarily indicate a bodily rapture. It's just not a proof text for the timing of it when you look at it.

No, I didn't miss anything. You are omitting the one thing...
Rev. 6:9 (KJV)
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

"the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God..."

This is a unique group of people.

This group of people CAN and most likely are part of those mentioned in Revelation 7 who get white robes at that time...

BUT, ALL of those who are in Rev 7 CANNOT be part of the group in Rev 6.

To say that they are all together as one single group in both instances because they have white robes is not acceptable.

"White robes" are the dress code of heaven.
Rev. 6:10-11 (KJV)
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev. 7:9 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It does not say when the group of individuals in Rev 7 got their robes, but it does say WHO got the robes in Rev 6.

This mixing of everybody as being done unto at the same time, or serving at the same time in the same positions is completely incorrect.

In other words, there are different positions to be held after we leave this life on planet Earth and each position has a defined people to serve in those specific positions.

There is no explanation as to HOW the Great Multitude who came out of the GT, got to where they are and that would leave just one conclusion.

The harpazo.

Love, His servant

 

[zeke37]

They are only there in a vision not reality.

some considerations


they simply died in the flesh and are in heaven waiting to come back with Christ

or

they are before the throne on earth, as the throne IS coming here again, see Ez1 for proof that it has been here before,
and see Zec14/Ez48 to show that it will be here again.

perhaps the scene is right before the great Judgement of God!
Remember that we see the story unfold from MANY views in Rev

one of those views ends in Rev7....

the great multitude is IMO the spiritual offspring of the elect 144,000,
whether this scene is from the beginning or the end of the Millennium

 

[B1inHim]

some considerations
the great multitude is IMO the spiritual offspring of the elect 144,000,
whether this scene is from the beginning or the end of the Millennium

The "spiritual offspring"...

That is not biblical and has no scriptural value
Revelation 14

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins...


This is how the POST-Tribulation teaching explains away the Great Multitude in Rev.7?
By calling them the "spiritual offspring" of the 144,000?


That is not in the bible.


This is what is in the bible...


Revelation 7:9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!" 13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."


"a great multitude that no one could count, who have come out of the great tribulation, before the throne of God, to serve Him..."

Looks like the results of Rev 14:14-16 to this servant.
This is not mentioned in Rev.7, but this group of individuals that no one could count had to have gotten to where they could be before the throne of God somehow.


His servant

 

[zeke37]

The "spiritual offspring"...

That is not biblical and has no scriptural value
Revelation 14

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins...

the same way 1Cor5 is spiritual.
I hope you don't think the "virgins" are literal?

This is how the POST-Tribulation teaching explains away the Great Multitude in Rev.7?
By calling them the "spiritual offspring" of the 144,000?

i do not claim to speak for anyone...

and I did say there are considerationS.

i think another considertaon is that they could be those of Rev19:1-3...the dead believers in heaven....



not the so called raptured church, that much is CERTAIN!


This is what is in the bible...


Revelation 7:9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!" 13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."[/quote]
you have to be in something to come out of it, whether protected or removed from the earth

"a great multitude that no one could count, who have come out of the great tribulation, before the throne of God, to serve Him..."

Looks like the results of Rev 14:14-16 to this servant.
This is not mentioned in Rev.7, but this group of individuals that no one could count had to have gotten to where they could be before the throne of God somehow.


His servant

ya, they died!

 

[B1inHim]

Looks like the results of Rev 14:14-16 to this servant.
This is not mentioned in Rev.7, but this group of individuals that no one could count had to have gotten to where they could be before the throne of God somehow.


His servant

ya, they died!

That is not written in the Bible, is it...

His servant

 

[NightHawkeye]

That is not written in the Bible, is it...

His servant

It isn't?

Perhaps you could clarify the following verses for me then, as I must be mis-interpreting them.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
​

.

 

[B1inHim]

It isn't?

Perhaps you could clarify the following verses for me then, as I must be mis-interpreting them.

Matthew 24: 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:14 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
​

.

What, exactly does this have to do with the Great Multitude being dead or not in the later part of Rev.7?

 

[B1inHim]

Where is the rapture in the bible?

There is no definitive scripture given to clearly answer this question.

Looking to the possible results of such an event would clearly lead us to Rev. 7: 9-17.
This is as close to answering this question as can be possible.

There is no reference to a "harpazo" in this scripture, yet there is NO reference as to HOW this Great Multitude got into heaven.

Just WHERE they came "out" of.

So no matter who would care to answer this question, there is no definite answer.
Except the obvious.

For many, it may be inconvenient to accept this as being the place that the"harpazo" takes place, yet based on all other scriptures given, it would be the most plausible place.

This understanding in itself alone, blows a BIG hole in the notion that the "harpazo" takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Yet it stands to reason that there is no other reference in the Word of God that depicts such a Great Multitude in heaven, which would be the most likely answer to the question...

Where is the rapture in the bible?

Love,
His servant

 

[NightHawkeye]

What, exactly does this have to do with the Great Multitude being dead or not in the later part of Rev.7?

Sigh ...

Maybe because both are about the Great Tribulation?

I left off the connecting verse though ... (my bad)

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
​

So what's your interpretation of Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:19?

 

[interpreter]

Jesus mentions a gathering to Him, when He comes...and that IS the rapture

but it is post trib, not pre trib...

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

No it isn't. Mat. 24:30 was fulfilled in 312 AD when the Sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power (through St. Constantine who rode a white horses and conquered with a sword). And he sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea (fulfilling Mat. 24:31). The first ecumenical council gave us the Bible, and the Nicene Creed.

 

[B1inHim]

No it isn't. Mat. 24:30 was fulfilled when the Sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power (through St. Constantine who rode a white horses and conquered with a sword). And he sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea (fulfilling Mat. 24:31).

Constantine is the deception, this is made out to look like the Lords Word taking place but this is a lie from the pit of hell.

Constantine was a puppet of the Devil. He made statues and built other structures in honor of pagan gods AFTER he supposedly becoming a "Christian".
He was self serving and knew that his conversion along with all of his armies conversion would bring in the combined finances of both the pagans and Christians, for his design.
This can be clearly been seen by the way the pagan rituals and holidays have been "Christianized" by the organization that he started.
****
The Edict of Milan (Edictum Mediolanense) was a letter signed by emperors Constantine I and Licinius that proclaimed religious toleration in the Roman Empire. The letter was issued in AD 313, shortly after the conclusion of the Diocletianic Persecution.[1]
Edict of Milan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
****

Just a way to get more peoples financial support.

His servant

 

[B1inHim]

Based on the information that Lord Jesus gives us pertaining to this particular time call the “Great Tribulation, we actually are in it right now.

There are but TWO things that have not happened yet…Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11 are what Lord Jesus was referring to when He said;
Matthew 24:15

New International Version (©1984)
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--
New Living Translation (©2007)
"The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about--the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place." (Reader, pay attention!)

And…
Joel 2:31 The sun will be darkened, and the moon will turn red as blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.
Matthew 24:29 Soon after the trouble of those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers in space will be driven from their courses.
Mark 13:24 In the days after that time of trouble the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine,
25 the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers in space will be driven from their courses.
Luke 21:25
There will be strange things happening to the sun, the moon, and the stars. On earth whole countries will be in despair, afraid of the roar of the sea and the raging tides.
Revelation 6:12 And I saw the Lamb break open the sixth seal. There was a violent earthquake, and the sun became black like coarse black cloth, and the moon turned completely red like blood.
13 The stars fell down to the earth, like unripe figs falling from the tree when a strong wind shakes it.

ONCE this particular portion happens, the “harpazo” is eminent.

Because DIRECTLY after the sun is darkened and the moon no longer shines and completely in context with the events, Lord Jesus tells us;
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (which places us in Revelation 6:12-13) [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly speaking of;
1 Thes. 4:15-18 (KJV)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we, which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them, which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Which is;
Rev. 14:14-16 (KJV)
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Therefore, by following the Bread trail we find;
Rev. 7:14-17 (KJV)
… These are they, which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. [16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sunlight on them, nor any heat. [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

The “harpazo” can clearly be seen as taking place some time after the opening of the 6th seal.
Thus is why there is the Great Multitude in heaven after the opening of the 6th seal.

The 6th seal is opened and the words Rev. 6:17 (KJV)
For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
ARE SPOKEN.

God seals
… They, which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. [5] And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The sealing takes place in Revelation 7:1-8 and there we are in Revelation 7:9-17.

I hope that I have answered your question.

Love,
[FONT=&quot]His servant[/FONT]

 

[interpreter]

Constantine is the deception, this is made out to look like the Lords Word taking place but this is a lie from the pit of hell.

Constantine was a puppet of the Devil. He made statues and built other structures in honor of pagan gods AFTER he supposedly becoming a "Christian".
He was self serving and knew that his conversion along with all of his armies conversion would bring in the combined finances of both the pagans and Christians, for his design.
This can be clearly been seen by the way the pagan rituals and holidays have been "Christianized" by the organization that he started.
****
The Edict of Milan (Edictum Mediolanense) was a letter signed by emperors Constantine I and Licinius that proclaimed religious toleration in the Roman Empire. The letter was issued in AD 313, shortly after the conclusion of the Diocletianic Persecution.[1]
Edict of Milan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
****

Just a way to get more peoples financial support.

His servant

What? The 5 horsemen are the good guys. Despite what you say, Constantine was such a good Christian he was made a saint. And he gathered all the Church together as prophesied. Sorry, no rapture.

 

[B1inHim]

What? The 5 horsemen are the good guys. Despite what you say, Constantine was such a good Christian he was made a saint. And he gathered all the Church together as prophesied. Sorry, no rapture.

Matthew 24:31 (KJV)
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He sent His "angels" and they (the angels) gathered His elect.

Not " He told a man to send out other men to gather His elect..."

I know that you believe that Matthew 24:31 has already happened and that you use this story to empower your belief as being the Truth.

Yet this single fact that has been shown herein shows that what you are attempting to teach us is not correct.

You are clearly using a Darby or Young's literal translation or even another translation in order to side step the word [FONT=&quot]aggelos,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which mean [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a messenger; especially an “angel. ἄγγελος, Greek a, 
aggelos; a prim. word; a messenger, angel:— angel(86), angel’s(2), angelic(1), angels(80), messenger(4), messengers(3).


I can see by using your method of interpretation, the term "angels" could clearly be misconstrued as meaning "messengers".

The multiple counts of the use of "angel" in the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries when weighed next to the amount of times that "messengers" is used to define the meaning of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]aggelos... "Angels" wins, 2 to 1.[/FONT]

Matthew 24:31 (KJV)
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Is yet to take place.

Love,
His servant
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Distinguished]

The bible does teach a pretribulation rapture. I'll post about it soon.

Edit---and we are definitely not in the tribulation period yet.

 

[B1inHim]

The bible does teach a pretribulation rapture. I'll post about it soon.

Edit---and we are definitely not in the tribulation period yet.

Based on current events and past as well, everything that our Lord told us that would be taking place either have or are taking place now. Save two.

There will be no PRE-tribulation "harpazo". It is too late for that now.

However, there will be one to most likely take place post 6th seal.

His servant

 

[zeke37]

No it isn't. Mat. 24:30 was fulfilled in 312 AD when the Sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power (through St. Constantine who rode a white horses and conquered with a sword). And he sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea (fulfilling Mat. 24:31). The first ecumenical council gave us the Bible, and the Nicene Creed.

it was not the worst time in history back then....not YET!...but it will be.
the birth pains were not in full swing back then....not YET!...but they sure are today.
the Lord did not Come again, YET!
the dead are not raised here YET!


63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.





6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

therefore interpreter, you do err!
unless you can show that Christ already came back the same way He left?

 

[Timtofly]

This is the same thing as the battle of Armageddon.

That is the problem with the entire eschatology of modern times passed down by the Jesuits, and most all post mill and Amil thought.

The most erroneous teaching of the entire church as presented since the Reformation and counter Reformation.

The Second Coming is not the same thing as the battle of Armageddon. Not even close.

Most want to declare that point by implying that the GWT is set up on the battlefield of Armageddon, and the dead are judged. That is not found anywhere in Scripture.

They skip over the entire chapter 20, as if that chapter started in the first century, and ended at Armageddon as well.