where is the rapture in the bible?

[seremela06]

i have had several atheists, christians, and even a pastor tell me recently that the rapture is not a biblical event and is never mentioned in the bible. thoughts?

 

[zeke37]

hi

if "they" are speaking of a pre trib removal from the earth event,
then they would be correct.
there is no pre trib rapture.

the Gathering to Jesus happens after the tribulation of the end days, Mar13
when He raises the dead, 1Thes4

it happens after the son of Perdition does his thing and claims to be all that has ever been called God or is currently called God...2Thes2





anyone that tries to teach you a different timing, is misleading...

 

[Biblewriter]

i have had several atheists, christians, and even a pastor tell me recently that the rapture is not a biblical event and is never mentioned in the bible. thoughts?

It is entirely correct that the word rapture is not in the Bible. It is a word first used in the nineteenth century to describe an event explicitly described in the Bible.

The exact words of scripture describing this event are:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

So anyone who denies the fact of the rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture.

But there is a second question, about the timing of the rapture. The scriptures most absolutely do not state when this event will occur. ALL doctrines about the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures.

Unfortunately, many people condemn those who interpret these scriptures differently than themselves as deceivers, some even going so far as to call them tools of Satan. Such terminology is inappropriate in civil discussion of any kind, and totally improper in discussions between Christians. It is also, by the way, against the rules of this forum.

I, personally, do not think that it is possible to consider the many explicitly stated end time prophecies in the Bible without realizing that the vast bulk of them are not even about the church, or have any bearing upon it. They are about the suffering that Judah (that is, the Jews) will pass through during a period that we generally call the tribulation.

These explicitly stated prophecies tell how this suffering will eventually bring a small remnant of them to repentance, although in the process 2/3 of all the inhabitants of the land (which is now called Israel, but the scriptural term is Judah) will be killed.

When we consider that God will at that time be dealing with the Jews as a nation, we begin to realize that the church is notably missing from the entire picture.

The problem is that many, if not most, of those who consider themselves to be advanced students of Bible prophecy think that most of it is in the Revelation and Daniel, along with parts of Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Matthew. Having studied only these parts of end time prophecy, they have totally missed the big picture.

End time prophecy is the largest single subject in the entire Bible, occupying a full third of its entire message. Many will tell you that this is incorrect, that it only occupies a fourth of the Bible. But I contend that the Psalms are also end time prophecy. They do not give the actual events, but they give the feelings that the righteous remnant of the Jews will experience as they pass through them. The events themselves are often referenced, but usually not directly. They are mentioned in passing, as it were. But that belongs to another discussion.

 

[ivebeenshown]

I agree that the rapture is most definitely there but the dispute about pre or post-tribulation timing is pretty dividing (an unnecessarily so.)

The fact of the matter is that anyone who believes on Christ and is saved is part of His Church. There is no way around that. The moment a Jew converts, he is then in the body of Christ, the Church. I have not seen any evidence that shows that Christ would take part of his Church once and then another part later.

To deny that the Jews/Israelites who are saved are considered part of the Church is to not properly discern the body of Christ. IMO.

 

[Biblewriter]

I agree that the rapture is most definitely there but the dispute about pre or post-tribulation timing is pretty dividing (an unnecessarily so.)

The fact of the matter is that anyone who believes on Christ and is saved is part of His Church. There is no way around that. The moment a Jew converts, he is then in the body of Christ, the Church. I have not seen any evidence that shows that Christ would take part of his Church once and then another part later.

To deny that the Jews/Israelites who are saved are considered part of the Church is to not properly discern the body of Christ. IMO.

This is absolutely correct. Jews and other Israelites that are saved immediately become part of the church.

But the Jews that are to be brought to repentance during Daniel's seventieth week are not believers in Jesus. They are still only Jews. This can be very clearly seen in Zechariah 13:6, where, upon his appearing, "one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

The result is given in chapter 12, where we read, "I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart." (Zechariah 12:10-14)

In these two passages, we find both that when they see Him, they are surprised to see the wounds in His hands, and that they will then finally repent in bitter tears, to realize that this same Jesus, whose name they have so long despised, is their long awaited Messiah.

This is what I mean by saying that the subject is not the church. It is these Jews, who are truly seeking after the God of their fathers, but in total ignorance of the Fact that He is Jesus.

Jesus promised that those that truly wanted to know the truth would know it. But He did not promise that they would find it quickly. Just knowing will not bring about conversion. Before the true Messiah can reveal himself as Jesus, He must first bring them into a state of soul in which they are prepared to receive the truth. And the process that He most often used to bring that about is suffering. Since the goal is to save an entire nation (that is, all that is left of it) He will bring the entire nation through the worst suffering in their entire history. This will even be worse than their suffering under Hitler or Stalin. But the scriptures tell us in exceedingly clear language that it will accomplish its purpose of bringing them to repentance.

 

[Zadok7000]

i have had several atheists, christians, and even a pastor tell me recently that the rapture is not a biblical event and is never mentioned in the bible. thoughts?

They are correct that the popular "rapture" doctine is not Biblical at all.
The event is properly called the "gathering together to Christ" - see 2Thes. 2. It happens at the 2nd coming and cannot be separated from it. Is there a "Gathering"? Yes. Does it happen as commonly taught? No.

 

[Wirraway]

They are still only Jews.

hey. thanks.

 

[Gnarwhal]

The real question is: "what exactly do you believe will occur during the 'rapture'?"

If you think we're going to escape this 'wretched Earth' and leave it to burn, you're wrong. It doesn't say anything about leaving this place for Heaven. If you think that we'll be called to the clouds to usher Christ into His Kingdom, well then you're right on there.

 

[D.E.Smith]

i have had several atheists, christians, and even a pastor tell me recently that the rapture is not a biblical event and is never mentioned in the bible. thoughts?

Most teachers that believe in the rapture quote 1st Thess 4:16-17

1st Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Somehow a period of three and a half or seven years is interjected in 1st Thess 4:16-17. Since, there is no scripture in the bible where one can find directly or indirectly a 3 1/2 or seven year rapture taught in connection with the resurrection, many reject the rapture doctrine. It appears to be primarily an invention of John Nelson Darby, an american bible scholar of the 1800's. His teaching was popularized by the Scofield reference bible.

Some believe it is saying the same thing as 1st Cor 15:52-54 but in a figurative way. That is clouds and air in 1st Thess represent glory and the glorified bodies that the believer will receive. The glory of the Lord is described in many places in scripture as a relationship with clouds. We the saved are glorified with him at his coming. Therefore, those who reject the rapture believes 1st Thess 4:16-17 simply means to be changed as Paul says in 1st Cor 15:52-54:

1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

D.E.

 

[Achilles6129]

The verse in 1 Th. 4 is talking about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. So, in a sense, there is a rapture, but it is just not a pre-trib rapture (like Zeke said). The "rapture" is at the Second Coming, described by Christ in these verses:

"38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Mt. 24:38-42

The Second Coming is compared to the destruction of the world in the days of Noah, and the rapture (catching away) is on the day of the Second Coming (spoken of by Paul in 1 Th. 4). This is the same thing as the battle of Armageddon.

 

[zeke37]

It is entirely correct that the word rapture is not in the Bible. It is a word first used in the nineteenth century to describe an event explicitly described in the Bible.

The exact words of scripture describing this event are:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

So anyone who denies the fact of the rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture.

But there is a second question, about the timing of the rapture. The scriptures most absolutely do not state when this event will occur. ALL doctrines about the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures.

Unfortunately, many people condemn those who interpret these scriptures differently than themselves as deceivers, some even going so far as to call them tools of Satan. Such terminology is inappropriate in civil discussion of any kind, and totally improper in discussions between Christians. It is also, by the way, against the rules of this forum.

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I, personally, do not think that it is possible to consider the many explicitly stated end time prophecies in the Bible without realizing that the vast bulk of them are not even about the church, or have any bearing upon it. They are about the suffering that Judah (that is, the Jews) will pass through during a period that we generally call the tribulation.

this understanding leaves some to forget (at least) the 10 northern tribes who were scattered abroad,
who have (at least in part), become Christian nations.


understanding who Israel is, in end time prophesy, is very important
and far too many Christians believe that Judah (Jews) = Israel...
and that is simply incorrect.

These explicitly stated prophecies tell how this suffering will eventually bring a small remnant of them to repentance, although in the process 2/3 of all the inhabitants of the land (which is now called Israel, but the scriptural term is Judah) will be killed.

you say explicite as if you are correct in that your current understanding is the only understanding possible,

Judah and Israel are both seperately prophesied about in the same chapter even...
they are not interchangable names. two houses, two sticks...


distinct from one another,
until they are joined again when the Lord comes

When we consider that God will at that time be dealing with the Jews as a nation, we begin to realize that the church is notably missing from the entire picture.

the Jews are Judah,
the church is is made up of the scattered descendants of Israel for the most part, and the gentiles that believe)
the church is not misssing from end time prophesy at all...
Rev11's candlesticks and Rev12's believers who hold the testimony of Jesus Christ, shows the church still here in that time.

The problem is that many, if not most, of those who consider themselves to be advanced students of Bible prophecy think that most of it is in the Revelation and Daniel, along with parts of Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Matthew. Having studied only these parts of end time prophecy, they have totally missed the big picture.

End time prophecy is the largest single subject in the entire Bible, occupying a full third of its entire message. Many will tell you that this is incorrect, that it only occupies a fourth of the Bible. But I contend that the Psalms are also end time prophecy. They do not give the actual events, but they give the feelings that the righteous remnant of the Jews will experience as they pass through them. The events themselves are often referenced, but usually not directly. They are mentioned in passing, as it were. But that belongs to another discussion.

Moses says....

Deut4:22But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land.
23Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
25When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God: ) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

 

[D.E.Smith]

The verse in 1 Th. 4 is talking about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. So, in a sense, there is a rapture, but it is just not a pre-trib rapture (like Zeke said). The "rapture" is at the Second Coming, described by Christ in these verses:

"38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Mt. 24:38-42

The Second Coming is compared to the destruction of the world in the days of Noah, and the rapture (catching away) is on the day of the Second Coming (spoken of by Paul in 1 Th. 4). This is the same thing as the battle of Armageddon.

I agree. The rapture is not a pretrib event but occurs at the second physical appearing of Christ. I see it happening just prior to the battle with Gog and Magog.

D.E.

 

[NightHawkeye]

It is entirely correct that the word rapture is not in the Bible. It is a word first used in the nineteenth century to describe an event explicitly described in the Bible.

The exact words of scripture describing this event are:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

So anyone who denies the fact of the rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture.

But there is a second question, about the timing of the rapture. The scriptures most absolutely do not state when this event will occur. ALL doctrines about the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures.

Unfortunately, many people condemn those who interpret these scriptures differently than themselves as deceivers, some even going so far as to call them tools of Satan. Such terminology is inappropriate in civil discussion of any kind, and totally improper in discussions between Christians. It is also, by the way, against the rules of this forum.

I, personally, do not think that it is possible to consider the many explicitly stated end time prophecies in the Bible without realizing that the vast bulk of them are not even about the church, or have any bearing upon it. They are about the suffering that Judah (that is, the Jews) will pass through during a period that we generally call the tribulation.

These explicitly stated prophecies tell how this suffering will eventually bring a small remnant of them to repentance, although in the process 2/3 of all the inhabitants of the land (which is now called Israel, but the scriptural term is Judah) will be killed.

When we consider that God will at that time be dealing with the Jews as a nation, we begin to realize that the church is notably missing from the entire picture.

The problem is that many, if not most, of those who consider themselves to be advanced students of Bible prophecy think that most of it is in the Revelation and Daniel, along with parts of Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Matthew. Having studied only these parts of end time prophecy, they have totally missed the big picture.

End time prophecy is the largest single subject in the entire Bible, occupying a full third of its entire message. Many will tell you that this is incorrect, that it only occupies a fourth of the Bible. But I contend that the Psalms are also end time prophecy. They do not give the actual events, but they give the feelings that the righteous remnant of the Jews will experience as they pass through them. The events themselves are often referenced, but usually not directly. They are mentioned in passing, as it were. But that belongs to another discussion.

Thank you, Biblewriter, for another excellent and enlightening post.


.

 

[D.E.Smith]

Bible Writer Which scriptures are you referring to that specifically speaks only to the Jews according to the flesh? It is my opinion, many if not most christians in the U.S. teach two plans of salvation. One plan for the spiritual people(Jews and gentiles in the church) and another plan for the Jews of natural descent who will not or have not accepted Christ. They seem to teach the Jews who do not believe in Christ now will be saved merely because of who they are in the flesh. They are jews after the flesh. I can find only one plan of salvation in the scriptures. Where is the other?

D.E.

 

[B1inHim]

The real question is: "what exactly do you believe will occur during the 'rapture'?"

YouTube - Rapture 1.avi

 

[B1inHim]

I agree. The rapture is not a pretrib event but occurs at the second physical appearing of Christ. I see it happening just prior to the battle with Gog and Magog.

D.E.

We can clearly see the harpazo in Revelation 14: 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.



That is NOT the second coming. It all takes place, with Lord Jesus staying in the sky among the clouds.


This is the same thing here...

1 Thessalonians 416For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


He does not descend to the surface of this planet.


***



This is where the SECOND Coming takes place...


Revelation 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


This can also be seen here...

Zechariah 14

The LORD Comes and Reigns

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you. 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

NOTE THIS*****

If you have been to a place and have told every one that you will come back a second time and are in an airplane and do not land, but only fly over the area, you did not come back.

It is when you actually stand here on the ground that you have returned a second time.
**************

TWO entirely different events.

The harpazo which takes place in the air among the clouds and the Second Coming which takes place on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem.

There is time between these two and while we are waiting for the second coming AFTER the harpazo, this is where we will be waiting...
Revelation 7:9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God,


who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!" 13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."


We will come out of the Great Tribulation time.


When Lord Jesus returns to the planet, for the second coming, we will be with Him for the war.



Not ALL of who are with Him in the second coming will reign on this planet during the 1,000 years, only those who are listed serve during the Millennial Sabbath.


Revelation 20:
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



This FIRST RESURRECTION is NOT the same as the harpazo in Rev 14.


AND ONLY those who are listed will serve in the position of reigning during this time.

"them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Ministries, theologists, preachers and teachers all over have been teaching us that we all serve here during this particular time and that is NOT what is written in His Word.

Also, look in Revelation 21 and KNOW that there are nations that will have need of ruling and reigning over after this is all over and dung with.

You WILL rule and reign, but not where you say.

Wherever the Lord directs.

Love,
His servant

 

[CryptoLutheran]

i have had several atheists, christians, and even a pastor tell me recently that the rapture is not a biblical event and is never mentioned in the bible. thoughts?

This is correct. The idea of "the Rapture" is a recent development within the history of Christianity, having arisen out of the 19th century as part of a theological/hermeneutical system known as Dispensationalism. While "Rapture" usually means "Pre-Trib Rapture", even the other Rapture theories are ultimately reactions or responses against the "Pre-Trib Rapture"

Even today the vast majority of Christians--Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc--don't subscribe to Dispensationalism. The historic Christian position is that at an unspecified time, some day, Christ will return in glory to judge the living and the dead; at this time the dead will rise (which includes "we will all be changed"), there will be the Last Judgment and God will set all things right, a new heavens and a new earth, "We believe... in the Age to Come."

The Creeds state belief in Resurrection of the Dead/Body, not a rapture into heaven of the Church.

Even the Rapture prooftext (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) doesn't mention a "rapture into heaven" of the Church; it instead mentions the resurrection of the dead and the joining of the living and the dead in greeting the coming and returning Lord Jesus Christ at the "last trumpet"--the passage talks about Christ coming down here to earth, not us going up there to heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[B1inHim]

Even the Rapture prooftext (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) doesn't mention a "rapture into heaven" of the Church; it instead mentions the resurrection of the dead and the joining of the living and the dead in greeting the coming and returning Lord Jesus Christ at the "last trumpet"--the passage talks about Christ coming down here to earth, not us going up there to heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

You may have to explain that too all these people...

Revelation 7:9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God,


who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!" 13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."



The teachings of the POST-trib harpazo does not address this scripture.

What was shown in this servants other post can be easily seen and understood.

The other teachings about this subject are not made without severe conjecture and supposition, which is all based on a formula.

His servant

 

[Gnarwhal]

This is correct. The idea of "the Rapture" is a recent development within the history of Christianity, having arisen out of the 19th century as part of a theological/hermeneutical system known as Dispensationalism. While "Rapture" usually means "Pre-Trib Rapture", even the other Rapture theories are ultimately reactions or responses against the "Pre-Trib Rapture"

Even today the vast majority of Christians--Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc--don't subscribe to Dispensationalism. The historic Christian position is that at an unspecified time, some day, Christ will return in glory to judge the living and the dead; at this time the dead will rise (which includes "we will all be changed"), there will be the Last Judgment and God will set all things right, a new heavens and a new earth, "We believe... in the Age to Come."

The Creeds state belief in Resurrection of the Dead/Body, not a rapture into heaven of the Church.

Even the Rapture prooftext (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) doesn't mention a "rapture into heaven" of the Church; it instead mentions the resurrection of the dead and the joining of the living and the dead in greeting the coming and returning Lord Jesus Christ at the "last trumpet"--the passage talks about Christ coming down here to earth, not us going up there to heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes.

 

[ivebeenshown]

You may have to explain that too all these people...

The teachings of the POST-trib harpazo does not address this scripture.

They are the departed souls of saints mentioned previously in Revelation 5.

Revelation 5
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
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When your body dies the spirit (breath of life) returns to the Creator who gave it and your soul goes to be in heaven (provided you are in Christ.)

When the trumpet does sound, it is time for the wrath, and the judgment, and the reward. The reward is, of course, the resurrection body. At the last trumpet, the dead bodies rise, and are reunited with their souls, and then the spirit of life is breathed into them. Read Ezekiel 37 for the grand vision of the resurrection of the dead.

Revelation 11
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[...]

18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
​