Where is the Plan Stan?

[JohnR7]

It amazes me that people think you can build something without a plan. One summer I was working as a carpenter for the Performing Arts Center here, building sets for a production. The reason they hired me was the union carpenters could not do the work. The set designer was a artist who could draw very pretty pictures. But there were no real working drawing at all. There basicly were no measurements and we had to figure that out ourselves.

I got to tell you, that sort of stuff is what went a long way toward me wanting to convert to Christ. The Christian faith gives you more than a pretty picture. They give you a very good working plan. It just amazes me when people say you do not need a plan, just built it. How much more absurd is it to say that you do not even need a builder that the project will just build itself.

Now science says there is a plan and it's called DNA, and then RNA is what takes the plan and does the building to put the chemicals or the building blocks together. AT least we have a plan now.

Of course no one is saying where the plan came from, no one is saying where the building blocks came from. They are just to busy playing with the building blocks and playing with the DNA to try and figure out how the building blocks go together.

 

[notto]

Originally posted by JohnR7


Of course no one is saying where the plan came from, no one is saying where the building blocks came from. They are just to busy playing with the building blocks and playing with the DNA to try and figure out how the building blocks go together.

You should try to read up on current scientific research. This is a very active area of current research and many people are investigating the evolution of RNA and DNA mechanisms.

Unlike the sets you use as an analogy, the mechanisms of RNA and DNA rely on chemistry. Self replicating and self organizing molecules can be found.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I don't imagine that God needed to sit down at a drafting table to design the hemoglobin molecule.

The universe is so marvelous that all that is required are a few simple laws. All the "complexity" we see - from atoms to rainbows to life on earth - are patterns that result from those simple founding principles. Spontaneous self organization of matter obeys these "rules", the replication of protein by RNA obey these rules, the nucleosynthesis in the core of a star obey these rules. What could be more elegant. The brilliance is in its simplicity. No need for architects or engineers. The hemoglobin molecule was not designed, it was inevitable.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Originally posted by JohnR7
It amazes me that people think you can build something without a plan.

Nobody here ever said that. Your argument is a red herring.

 

[LadyShea]

The most beautiful works of art are usually spontaneous creations. I don't think Picasso drew up blueprints or plans...and neither did the Universe

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by LadyShea
The most beautiful works of art are usually spontaneous creations. I don't think Picasso drew up blueprints or plans...and neither did the Universe

I can assure you, God does not consider Picasso's art, a work of beauty.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I suppose I'll be sorry, but I have to ask. John, where on earth are you getting this stuff about God and Picasso? Are we projecting again?

 

[MSBS]

Originally posted by JohnR7
I can assure you, God does not consider Picasso's art, a work of beauty.

Really? How do you know this? Did God appear to you in a vision and say, "I agree with your taste in art, Picasso's works are lousy?"

Care to express God's opinion on anything else? How does he feel about country music?

 

[LadyShea]

John you sure are a frustrating nitpicker .

Choose your favorite artist to use in my analogy...Rembrandt, Van Gogh, Monet?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Gee, I really hope that John -- er, Yahweh -- doesn't have a problem with Kandinsky, too. I rather like his work.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I bet that God thinks that Eminem's work is that of a genius

 

[seebs]

Well, it's worth noting that many artists *do* draw up plans. That's why you get notebooks full of "studies".

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Late_Cretaceous
I bet that God thinks that Eminem's work is that of a genius

Which, the "music", or the performance art of calling it "music"?

 

[Chuck_Darwin]

Of course if God is the ultimate engineer of the universe it would follow that he has zero artistic apprecaition. Just look at all the engineers that you see around, they are not the most artistically inclined.

 

[LadyShea]

Originally posted by seebs
Well, it's worth noting that many artists *do* draw up plans. That's why you get notebooks full of "studies".

 

Yes seebs, Da Vinci was especially a plan maker and quite a thinker!...but how many works were done when someone had a dream or an inspiration and jumped out of bed with the need to CREATE?

 

[seebs]

Having had that exact experience, I've noticed that I almost always need to make a plan.

That said, sometimes I don't. When I don't, I putter around, tweak things, and gradually build something utterly incoherent with fragmentary bits of eight other designs left around where I haven't needed to remove them yet. I write programs that look like hemoglobin when I don't plan.

You may draw your own conclusions.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Chuck_Darwin
Just look at all the engineers that you see around, they are not the most artistically inclined.

There are craftsman and there are artists, seldom is someone good at both.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by MSBS
Really? How do you know this? Did God appear to you in a vision and say, "I agree with your taste in art, Picasso's works are lousy?" 

It was a part of the sermon last sunday. What man considers beauty, is not always beautiful to God.

Picasso's work is fragmented. Jesus came so we could be made every bit whole again.

 

 

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by JohnR7
There are craftsman and there are artists, seldsom is someone good at both.

I don't actually agree with this. I think that most "good artists" are only recognizably "good" because they are also skilled at the corresponding craft. A good sense of light and color is worthless without some way to create images.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by JohnR7
It amazes me that people think you can build something without a plan. One summer I was working as a carpenter for the Performing Arts Center here, building sets for a production. The reason they hired me was the union carpenters could not do the work. The set designer was a artist who could draw very pretty pictures. But there were no real working drawing at all. There basicly were no measurements and we had to figure that out ourselves.

I got to tell you, that sort of stuff is what went a long way toward me wanting to convert to Christ. The Christian faith gives you more than a pretty picture. They give you a very good working plan. It just amazes me when people say you do not need a plan, just built it. How much more absurd is it to say that you do not even need a builder that the project will just build itself.

Now science says there is a plan and it's called DNA, and then RNA is what takes the plan and does the building to put the chemicals or the building blocks together. AT least we have a plan now.

Of course no one is saying where the plan came from, no one is saying where the building blocks came from. They are just to busy playing with the building blocks and playing with the DNA to try and figure out how the building blocks go together.

First, apples and oranges on "The Christian faith gives ... you a very good working plan." That is talking about your spiritual life, which evolution doesn't address. 

Second, yes there is a "designer" in evolution.  It's called natural selection.  Natural, or Darwinian, selection is an algorithm to get design.  I once started a thread showing how Darwinian selection yields design and how humans use it to design.  Creationists never responded.  The "plan" is to solve design problems set by the environment.  That is a short-term plan.  Evolution has not yet seen that there is any long-term plan.

Third, several threads have addressed the origin of RNA/DNA and the building blocks all the way back to the primordial hydrogen following the Big Bang.  This is all well-documented chemistry.

Do you need us to go over it again so you will ignore it again?