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Where is the line with "playing God"?

DogmaHunter

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The dude would realize too late that breaking any of the Ten Commandments has nothing to do with his salvation.

I'm not talking about his salvation. I'm talking about the salvation of all the toddlers and babies the dude would be killing. Which, according to you, would be all guaranteed a place in paradise.

I've already granted that the guy would knowingly be sacrificing his own salvation for the guarantee that all those hundreds, thousands of children would be granted a place in paradise.

From your perspective, this would be like some kind of "ultimate" act of altruism.

Sounds kinda Kleboldish & Harrish to me

No idea who are what those are.

.What about them?

Christians like to bring up "the 10", but forget that in total, there are 613.
Many of which would not result in morally acceptable behaviour...
 
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DogmaHunter

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And we, as responsible citizens, should want to be sure that that parent gets the death penalty (after due process) ... right?

I wouldn't. I'm against the death penalty.

I note that none of you are actually giving me a reasonable argument to show that there is something wrong in my reasoning.

A mother who wishes to be certain that her kids get to heaven, can be certain (according to you) of that by aborting her child.

Perhaps she cares more about the soul of her children then her own.
Perhap she has done things already that makes her belief that all hope for her is lost anyway, so she has nothing to lose anyhow.

There could be many reasons why she wouldn't care about her own soul.

Parents do that all the time. Many, perhaps most, would knowingly catch a bullet to protect their children from harm, sacrificing their lives in the process.

I'ld say that the "grandeur" of a sacrifice is directly related to the value of the thing sacrificed, yes?

Sacrificing your life to save another is generally seen as an act of pure heroism. Soldiers doing that are declared hero's all the time. Civilians doing that become famous in epicly viral internet video's/articles.

I'ld think that sacrificing your eternal life would give even more grandeur to the altruistic act?
Making it even more heroic?

Please point out the flaw in my logic if you think there is one.
 
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joshua 1 9

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An "abortionist"? What is that?

I was just replying to your statement, that some people believe that unborn children that die go straight to heaven.

From that logically follows that if you as a parent want to be sure that your kid gets into paradise, the best course of action would be to abort it.
I did see on tv where a man killed his family because he felt that was their best Chance to go to heaven. Clearly this thinking does not represent God. You miss the whole point. Moses said to choose life so you and your family can live. Heaven is wonderful just by definition. Still God has a plan and a purpose for us here in this life. We are here learning how to make the right choices. The people working to get others to make the wrong choices will end up getting weeded out.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm not talking about his salvation.
Then what did you mean by this:
So, the dude would be sacrificing his own soul ...
Unless you meant going to the electric chair or gas chamber for it; in which case I would have to wonder how he chalked up "many hundreds of others" before he was stopped.
DogmaHunter said:
I'm talking about the salvation of all the toddlers and babies the dude would be killing.
As you put it, it sounds "altruistic," doesn't it?

So do you support abortion; or are you trying to get me to support it?
DogmaHunter said:
I've already granted that the guy would knowingly be sacrificing his own salvation ...
No he wouldn't.

If the guy was saved in the first place, he too would join his victims in Heaven.
DogmaHunter said:
From your perspective, this would be like some kind of "ultimate" act of altruism.
And from "my perspective," I would vote for some kind of "ultimate" act of the death penalty on that guy as well.
DogmaHunter said:
Christians like to bring up "the 10", but forget that in total, there are 613.
We certainly woldn't want to put an undue burden on scientific methodists who harp on ten of them being displayed on courthouse lawns ... would we?

Although I do think it would be "poetic" if they said, "Sure, we'll have the Ten Commandments removed from the lawn tomorrow morning."

And then the next morning, there are the other 603. ;)
 
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joshua 1 9

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I would imagine, the families of the 9 million children that die each year before the age of five do a whole lot of praying and their children still die.
The wages of sin is death and we are to choose life. Research now is showing most everyone has some sort of a predisposition to something. There are environmental factors that can block handful genes from expressing themselves. This keeps people from making the claim that we should screen people out before they are born like we currently do with downs syndrome.
 
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AV1611VET

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Please point out the flaw in my logic if you think there is one.
Your flaw, for one, is a misunderstanding of soteriology.

You keep referencing "the soul" of the perpetrator, as if said perpetrator is going to lose her salvation for getting an abortion.

Should the doctor who aborted the child "lose his soul" as well?

I have a suggestion:

Why not just "put down" any pregnant woman who comes in for an abortion?

Kill them both?

Melding your and my perspectives together, wouldn't that amount to a win-win situation?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Until a person reaches the age of accountability, they will die and go to Heaven.

This includes children born to parents who are scientists.
12 year old children are pretty amazing really. But by the time they are 18 TV and the culture has pretty well ruined them.
 
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AV1611VET

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12 year old children are pretty amazing really. But by the time they are 18 TV and the culture has pretty well ruined them.
Not to mention what school has done to their libidos and sense of history.

Also, go hang around a chiropractor's office for about an hour (or just walk into the waiting area), and note all the kids that are in there compliments of soccer & football and who knows what?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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...You keep referencing "the soul" of the perpetrator, as if said perpetrator is going to lose her salvation for getting an abortion.

Should the doctor who aborted the child "lose his soul" as well?
What happens to the perpetrator(s) is incidental to the main issue, which is, that by killing or aborting babies, they would guarantee those babies a salvation they would not necessarily gain otherwise - which would seem to provide an altruistic/utilitatrian motivation for a believer in salvation. A case of breaking a commandment for a perceived greater good...

I have a suggestion:

Why not just "put down" any pregnant woman who comes in for an abortion?

Kill them both?

Melding your and my perspectives together, wouldn't that amount to a win-win situation?
A disturbing question indeed - if the pregnant woman and her child would both be guaranteed salvation they might not otherwise gain, then that would seem to be the case; how would you persuade a potential perpetrator who puts forward this argument, unconcerned with his/her own fate, that this would not be a win-win? The fact that the action would be wrong and sinful for them, would be outweighed in their estimation by the guarantee of salvation for the victims. What logical or reasoned arguments would you use to dissuade them?

This line of reasoning rather relies on the premise that salvation is the ultimate or overriding goal. Is there any good reason to suppose this is not the case?
 
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Heissonear

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A lot of religious people get annoyed at things like stem cell research, research into reversing aging, genetic engineering .............. if God really had a problem with it he would let us know, but maybe that's not the case.

From a child your conscience has been enlightened through God's Holy Spirit, to let you know from Him when something in particular is right or wrong.

At this point you let such time be on deaf ears, and now you present "right or wrong" issues before men.

I was raised a godless Naturalist, educated in earth sciences. But Grace came once again, at His chosen and conditions, but for my recognition of Him. At age 23 I finally turned to Him.

When you are unaware of the Spiritual Realm and His Kingdom in our midst the only way you perceive Him is way you are not familiar with, and faith is needed, since it is not a physical taste/touch/smell/see/hear encounter.

He wakes our spirit up, if we are willing and not completely physical (dust) bound.

Your post is an enquiry. Do you really want to find out the right verses wrong of what you presented?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Your flaw, for one, is a misunderstanding of soteriology.

You keep referencing "the soul" of the perpetrator, as if said perpetrator is going to lose her salvation for getting an abortion.

Should the doctor who aborted the child "lose his soul" as well?

I have a suggestion:

Why not just "put down" any pregnant woman who comes in for an abortion?

Kill them both?

Melding your and my perspectives together, wouldn't that amount to a win-win situation?

My actual perspective is that none of this is relevant, because I don't share your beliefs.

I'm merely suggesting a logical consequence of the belief that children go straight to heaven if they die - no questions asked.

If it is heroic to sacrifice your life to save another, why is it not even more heroic to sacrifice your eternal life to save the eternal lives of others?
 
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The Cadet

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Do it a few more times.

But without a control group, we have nothing to work with. That's why these double-blind studies were done. To determine how the control group who wasn't prayed for responded compared to the treatment group who was prayed for. And the results: a big fat nothing. There was simply no difference.
 
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DogmaHunter

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12 year old children are pretty amazing really. But by the time they are 18 TV and the culture has pretty well ruined them.


Right, so wouldn't you do them a favor by killing them before the age of accountability?
If what you say is correct, then chances are really slim for anyone to get into heaven once they get "corrupted" so easily (apparantly) by TV and culture?

So as a parent who cares more about the well-being and fate of your children then your own well-being or fate... why wouldn't you just kill them, to make sure they get to spend eternity in a paradise?

Could it be, that you perhaps don't really believe that they'll go to a heaven? Or that there even is a heaven to go to, in the first place?
 
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DogmaHunter

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I did see on tv where a man killed his family because he felt that was their best Chance to go to heaven. Clearly this thinking does not represent God.

Why does it matter if it represents anything?

We have allready established that the one who is doing the killing is acting out of altruistic motives without any concern for his / her own fate.

The person doing the killing is thus fully aware that his actions will exclude him / her from paradise. That person doesn't care about that. The person only cares about guaranteeing his "victims" a spot in paradise. Which is exactly what (s)he would do by killing babies, if the assertion is that dead babies go straight to heaven - no questions asked.

Let's say the victims are all children under the age of 3 from some tribal region in Pakistan. These children are guaranteed to grow up in a religion that is not christianity. Which, as far as the christian is concerned, puts them on a certain path to hell, since they don't accept the "saviour" of christianity.

What exact argument would you use to persuade this person that what (s)he is doing is immoral?


You miss the whole point. Moses said to choose life so you and your family can live. Heaven is wonderful just by definition. Still God has a plan and a purpose for us here in this life. We are here learning how to make the right choices. The people working to get others to make the wrong choices will end up getting weeded out.

None of this is an actual argument against the person wanting to guarantee his children a spot in heaven.

God wants humans to go to heaven instead of hell, correct?
How is making sure exactly that happens then not according to god's will?

If the person kills 100 babies in rural Pakistan, do these babies then go to heaven according to the warped logic presented here, yes or no?

Assuming those 100 babies would grow up to become pretty radical muslims, like the vast majority of muslims in those tribal regions, would then those adult radical muslims get to go to heaven (as you understand it), yes or no?

If you answered the first with "yes" and the second with "no", then how can you say that killing those 100 babies is not a good thing for those babies?
 
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AV1611VET

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If it is heroic to sacrifice your life to save another, why is it not even more heroic to sacrifice your eternal life to save the eternal lives of others?
Because that person you kill may just be someone who was destined to find a cure for cancer or lead 100 people to Christ.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Then what did you mean by this:

He 'sacrifices' his own soul by doing things that he knows will gain him a spot in hell instead of heaven. But he doesn't care, because his altruism motivates him for "the greater good": 100 in heaven and only 1 in hell. While, if he would not have done it, he might perhaps get into heaven, while the 100 pakistanie babies would be guaranteed a spot in hell, simply for not being christians and thus not being "saved".

So do you support abortion; or are you trying to get me to support it?

I don't make generalised statements about it because it is a far to complicated subject to view in black and white. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis.

It depends on lots of factors what my opinion is on the matter.

Not that it matters to any of this though.
This isn't about abortion. It's about how sick the logic is here and where it rationally leads to.

No he wouldn't.
If the guy was saved in the first place, he too would join his victims in Heaven.

Wow. This has just become even more sick.
Now, a logical case could be made that ALL "saved" people should go out and kill every human that hasn't reached the age of accountability yet.

And from "my perspective," I would vote for some kind of "ultimate" act of the death penalty on that guy as well

Why?
Honest question btw. I'm genuinly curious what your reasoning is here...
 
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Loudmouth

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And we, as responsible citizens, should want to be sure that that parent gets the death penalty (after due process) ... right?

Abortions make up a tiny percent of the babies that die before being born.

Do you think heaven will be stuffed full with souls that never even made it one month past conception?
 
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joshua 1 9

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God wants humans to go to heaven instead of hell, correct?
How is making sure exactly that happens then not according to god's will?
"'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'"

People who go to Heaven without their works being tested will not receive any reward. 1cor14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

how can you say that killing those 100 babies is not a good thing for those babies?

Your whole arguement seems to be based on the furtility of life. Do you feel life has no value? Do you think that it does not make any difference if we live a full life or not? Does all our experience and all that we learn just perish and come to nothing? Sounds like the epitome of futility to me. This attitude that you seem to have.
 
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bhsmte

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"'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'"

People who go to Heaven without their works being tested will not receive any reward. 1cor14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Your whole arguement seems to be based on the furtility of life. Do you feel life has no value? Do you think that it does not make any difference if we live a full life or not? Does all our experience and all that we learn just perish and come to nothing? Sounds like the epitome of futility to me. This attitude that you seem to have.

How in the world did you conclude this from what he said?
 
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