Where is the line between "speaking doubt and unbelief" and common sense?

[FireOfGod]

I have encountered some situations where I saw an outcome that was not good if the current path was continued on. I have these Charismatic friends in particular, who, when I make my observation about what is prone to happen, they say I'm speaking doubt and unbelief. But it turns out that I am right when I analyze situations. I have one particular friend who says I'm right when I analyze the character of people, and she has come to trust my judgment.

I do understand what it means to doubt the word of God. However, when you see warning signs or certain tendencies [I'm not talking about "discerning" things about people; I'm talking about natural observation], should you hold your peace, so as not to speak unbelief?

If things are staring us right in the face, is it of God not to call it what it is?

I believe in speaking the Word, but I don't believe speaking the word is a substitute for opening your eyes to see what something really is.

"Even a fool is considered wise when he is silent." - Proverbs 17:28

"When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent." - Proverbs 10:19

"The wise keep quiet about what they know, but fools advertise their ignorance." - Proverbs 12:23

I guess it may be wise to keep silent... Speaking doubt/unbelief is logical most of the time. But the impossible is logical to God. A good example of speaking doubt/unbelief would be if someone was riddled with cancer, and they were on their death bed, and you said, "Oh, they are going to die". Speaking that instead of speaking life to them would be speaking doub/unbelief.

Even though it is logical to our minds, it may not be logical to the Spirit. The doctors may say that, but the Spirit may say, "They are going to be healed, out of this hospital, and back at their job in 48 hours". So it is always better to speak life or encouragment, if anything at all, even if you know what the logical outcome may be.

 

[Strong in Him]

Speaking doubt/unbelief is logical most of the time. But the impossible is logical to God. A good example of speaking doubt/unbelief would be if someone was riddled with cancer, and they were on their death bed, and you said, "Oh, they are going to die". Speaking that instead of speaking life to them would be speaking doub/unbelief.

Why? Everyone is going to die one day, that's not unbelief, that's fact. If a person is on their deathbed and everyone around them knows that their time will be sooner rather than later, why is it unbelief to say so?

I mean, if the patient themself doesn't actually know, and they would become distressed/worried on being told, or if they do know but refuse to talk about it and focus on the possibility of recovery, that's one thing. And it's not a good idea to go into a room a blurt out "so, you're going to die then?" But supposing it were a Christian in that position? Don't you think that speaking with them about all the joys of heaven, and talking about seeing the Lord Jesus face to face would be good? I read a book once in which the author mentioned a Christian dying, and said; how easily we rob people of the joy of anticipating heaven and their new life, or something similar. It's true. Christ has overcome death, and we no longer face the possibility of eternal seperation from God. So why are some of us (me included, at times) so reluctant to admit that it still happens, and treat the entrance way to heaven as though it's a negative thing?

 

[Hadron]

Is the common sense we are talking about here the same fleshly common sense that says God doesn't exist?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Sounds like heaven's gate logic to me.

Why? Everyone is going to die one day, that's not unbelief, that's fact. If a person is on their deathbed and everyone around them knows that their time will be sooner rather than later, why is it unbelief to say so?

I mean, if the patient themself doesn't actually know, and they would become distressed/worried on being told, or if they do know but refuse to talk about it and focus on the possibility of recovery, that's one thing. And it's not a good idea to go into a room a blurt out "so, you're going to die then?" But supposing it were a Christian in that position? Don't you think that speaking with them about all the joys of heaven, and talking about seeing the Lord Jesus face to face would be good? I read a book once in which the author mentioned a Christian dying, and said; how easily we rob people of the joy of anticipating heaven and their new life, or something similar. It's true. Christ has overcome death, and we no longer face the possibility of eternal seperation from God. So why are some of us (me included, at times) so reluctant to admit that it still happens, and treat the entrance way to heaven as though it's a negative thing?

 

[DunamisHaptomai]

Sounds like heaven's gate logic to me.

Sounds like a manipulation to me.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Sounds like a manipulation to me.

Exactly my point...

 

[DunamisHaptomai]

Exactly my point...

I was refering to your post, not her's.

 

[probinson]

Why? Everyone is going to die one day, that's not unbelief, that's fact. If a person is on their deathbed and everyone around them knows that their time will be sooner rather than later, why is it unbelief to say so?

Here's a story for you. 4 years ago, I went to visit my Grandpa in the hospital on his deathbed. Doctors said he probably only had a few days to live. My family was there crying and trying to get his affairs in order. This all made very much common sense to the natural eye. I, however, was not willing to allow all of this to happen. So, I asked my pastor to come with me to the hospital and pray with him. I know my pastor is a man of faith and I needed someone to agree with me and my wife.

First, we asked my Grandpa if he was ready to die. He said no. We said, OK, you don't have to then. The prayer was simple. "In the name of Jesus, we thank you Father that Paul will live and not die." I then gave my Grandpa a hug, told him I'd come and visit him at home next week, and went home.

2 hours later, my grandfather, who was supposed to die within a few days and didn't even have the strength to sit up in his bed, was up and walking around the hospital. Within 2 days, he was discharged from the hospital and sent to rehab. Within a week of being sent to rehab, he was sent home.

That was 4 years ago. My grandfather is still alive today.

Now we could have used "common sense" and my Grandfather would probably be dead right now. But he wasn't ready to die. The story would have been much different if he'd said that he was ready to die. We would have simply let him know that it was OK to die and that we would see him in Heaven.

But that's not what he said. He said, no, I don't want to die yet. So instead of succumbing to all of the "common sense" around us, we decided to speak in faith against all the doubt and unbelief, or IOW, the "factual" diagnosis that the doctors had made.

I do not believe that ANYONE has to die from some disease. I firmly believe that when I die, I will lie down in a restful sleep and go home to be with my heavenly Father. I will not be gasping for breath or suffering in pain. You will NEVER convince me that this is the will of the Father.

I know we all must die someday. But when I do, I'll have completed all God has called me to do and I will go home to be with Him.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well that's a great testimony, and I'm sure that everyone was delighted that "common sense" - a phrase which I never used by the way - was wrong.

I don't really want to get into a debate about what you decide to "allow" God to do. The Psalmist says that all the days of our life are written in his book before any of them comes to be, and if God wants to take someone home, then he will. I don't particularly want to point out all the Christians who have died of cancer, or in pain, as I'm sure you'd tell me that that was because they didn't believe as you do. And I do believe that a positive mental attitude is important, and that some people might just give up on hearing bad news. But if, medically speaking, the prognosis is terminal.

Speaking personally, I'm looking forward to going to heaven, and if I was on the threshold of it in 10, 15 years or so, I don't think I would welcome someone trying to get me a few more years on earth just because they felt I was too young to die, or I shouldn't be doing so in a particular manner. God can, and obviously does, work miracles, but equally if it is his time to take someone home we should realise that he has a right to do so.

And anyway - in my previous post; speaking about heaven and seeing the Lord Jesus face to face IS positive. If the Lord then decided to postpone that for a bit and work a miracle allowing the sick person to stay on earth, well what have they lost? They have got to think about the joys of heaven, while being granted a bit more time on earth.

 

[merryheart]

I have encountered some situations where I saw an outcome that was not good if the current path was continued on. I have these Charismatic friends in particular, who, when I make my observation about what is prone to happen, they say I'm speaking doubt and unbelief. But it turns out that I am right when I analyze situations. I have one particular friend who says I'm right when I analyze the character of people, and she has come to trust my judgment.

I do understand what it means to doubt the word of God. However, when you see warning signs or certain tendencies [I'm not talking about "discerning" things about people; I'm talking about natural observation], should you hold your peace, so as not to speak unbelief?

If things are staring us right in the face, is it of God not to call it what it is?

I believe in speaking the Word, but I don't believe speaking the word is a substitute for opening your eyes to see what something really is.

The spiritual gift of discernment is more practical than you seem to think - you may in fact be describing it - if your observations are in the spirit of love - God's Love.. The word that is translated discernment in 1 Cor 12:10 is diakrisis.

1252 diakrino dee-ak-ree'-no


from 1223 and 2919; to separate thoroughly, i.e. (literally and
reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose;
figuratively, to discriminate (by implication, decide), or
(reflexively) hesitate:--contend, make (to) differ(-ence), discern,
doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.
see GREEK for 1223
see GREEK for 2919

1253 diakrisis dee-ak'-ree-sis


from 1252; judicial estimation:--discern(-ing), disputation.
see GREEK for 1252

 

[lismore]

Common sense for us is following God's will. Those who know their God will do exploits.

Faith is not acting in a situation where God says no. And faith is not refusing to act where God says go! Both are disobedience.

If you look at 1 Kings 22 where Jehosaphat and Ahab get prophets to scream victory where God has ordained defeat through his prophet.

1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat king of Judah went down to see the king of Israel. 3 The king of Israel had said to his officials, "Don't you know that Ramoth Gilead belongs to us and yet we are doing nothing to retake it from the king of Aram?"


4 So he asked Jehoshaphat, "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?"
Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses." 5 But Jehoshaphat also said to the king of Israel, "First seek the counsel of the LORD." 6 So the king of Israel brought together the prophets—about four hundred men—and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?" "Go," they answered, "for the Lord will give it into the king's hand." 7 But Jehoshaphat asked, "Is there not a prophet of the LORD here whom we can inquire of?"

8 The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man through whom we can inquire of the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah." "The king should not say that," Jehoshaphat replied. 9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, "Bring Micaiah son of Imlah at once." 10 Dressed in their royal robes, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah were sitting on their thrones at the threshing floor by the entrance of the gate of Samaria, with all the prophets prophesying before them. 11 Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: 'With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.' "

12 All the other prophets were prophesying the same thing. "Attack Ramoth Gilead and be victorious," they said, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand." 13 The messenger who had gone to summon Micaiah said to him, "Look, as one man the other prophets are predicting success for the king. Let your word agree with theirs, and speak favorably."

14 But Micaiah said, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me." 15 When he arrived, the king asked him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?" "Attack and be victorious," he answered, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand." 16 The king said to him, "How many times must I make you swear to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD ?"

17 Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' " 18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"

19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." 24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. "Which way did the spirit from [a] the LORD go when he went from me to speak to you?" he asked.

25 Micaiah replied, "You will find out on the day you go to hide in an inner room."

26 The king of Israel then ordered, "Take Micaiah and send him back to Amon the ruler of the city and to Joash the king's son 27 and say, 'This is what the king says: Put this fellow in prison and give him nothing but bread and water until I return safely.' " 28 Micaiah declared, "If you ever return safely, the LORD has not spoken through me." Then he added, "Mark my words, all you people!"





Now if you look at this scriputre it is the opposite: God says go/ moses says no:

Exodus 4:13



But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it." 14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you.



24 At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met {Moses} [b] and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched {Moses'} feet with it. [c] "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me," she said. 26 So the LORD let him alone. (At that time she said "bridegroom of blood," referring to circumcision.)

Having said this, it is possible to intercede with God and to change his will ina situation by direct communication with him.

 

[FireOfGod]

Why? Everyone is going to die one day, that's not unbelief, that's fact. If a person is on their deathbed and everyone around them knows that their time will be sooner rather than later, why is it unbelief to say so?

I mean, if the patient themself doesn't actually know, and they would become distressed/worried on being told, or if they do know but refuse to talk about it and focus on the possibility of recovery, that's one thing. And it's not a good idea to go into a room a blurt out "so, you're going to die then?" But supposing it were a Christian in that position? Don't you think that speaking with them about all the joys of heaven, and talking about seeing the Lord Jesus face to face would be good? I read a book once in which the author mentioned a Christian dying, and said; how easily we rob people of the joy of anticipating heaven and their new life, or something similar. It's true. Christ has overcome death, and we no longer face the possibility of eternal seperation from God. So why are some of us (me included, at times) so reluctant to admit that it still happens, and treat the entrance way to heaven as though it's a negative thing?

Because everyone else doesn't know what God knows... If we're over there speaking death, and God is wanting to make them whole, I won't go against what He's saying, I'll speak life.

Of course it's a joy when we get to go to Heaven and be with our Father forever! It's a wonderful, great, joyous thing. But we're not here for no reason, we're here to store up treasures in Heaven. Now, I'm not being greedy, because the first thing I'm going to do with the treasures I have in Heaven will be giving them to my King, who deserves them.

Why not give him as much as possible... Why not store up all you can, only to give it all to Him in the end. I'll stay here as long as I can so I can give Him as many treasures as I can.

Also, when you die young, you leave people. Friends, family. Even if you don't know that many people, you still know some, who will grieve greatly over your loss. I don't think it's a joy to die a painful, breathtaking (not in a good way) death. I believe, like probinson said, that no one HAS to die of an illness or in pain. When I die, I'm going to peacefully go home to my Father when all my work here is done.

Everyone dies, yes, I know this. Not everyone has to die in pain or sick.

 

[Strong in Him]

Because everyone else doesn't know what God knows... If we're over there speaking death, and God is wanting to make them whole, I won't go against what He's saying, I'll speak life.

And you think that God might be incapable of healing someone because another Christian has spoken negative words?? He raised Jairus' daughter to life even though people were standing around laughing at His Son for saying that she was only asleep.

But we're not here for no reason, we're here to store up treasures in Heaven. Now, I'm not being greedy, because the first thing I'm going to do with the treasures I have in Heaven will be giving them to my King, who deserves them.

Why not give him as much as possible... Why not store up all you can, only to give it all to Him in the end. I'll stay here as long as I can so I can give Him as many treasures as I can.

If God wanted us all to live for ages just to collect treasures to give to him, he'd make sure that we all became Christians at the age of 5 - or younger - and lived till we were 120 or so. It's not number of years that's important, it's what we do with them - see parable of the talents where the servants were all given a different amount of money by the king.

Whether or not you say that no Christian HAS to die in pain from sickness, the fact is that people do. And if they do it's not because of a lack of faith, and doesn't affect their salvation. I believe David Watson - British evangelist - is in heaven, even though he died from cancer at the age of 50, every bit as much a someone else who died peacefully in their beds aged 95. When we get to heaven I don't think anyone'll care two hoots about someone else having had slightly more earthly years than them. And even if you do turn around to someone and say "you could have had another 30 years if you'd had my faith", what would be the good of that when earthly life is past?

My brother didn't even get to two before he died. It was a sad event which has, or had, affected the lives of several in my family. I don't know why it happened. But now? He's been in heaven for nearly 40 years, I've been rejoicing/struggling/learning/growing down here on earth. Which one of us is better off?

 

[FireOfGod]

And you think that God might be incapable of healing someone because another Christian has spoken negative words?? He raised Jairus' daughter to life even though people were standing around laughing at His Son for saying that she was only asleep.



If God wanted us all to live for ages just to collect treasures to give to him, he'd make sure that we all became Christians at the age of 5 - or younger - and lived till we were 120 or so. It's not number of years that's important, it's what we do with them - see parable of the talents where the servants were all given a different amount of money by the king.

Whether or not you say that no Christian HAS to die in pain from sickness, the fact is that people do. And if they do it's not because of a lack of faith, and doesn't affect their salvation. I believe David Watson - British evangelist - is in heaven, even though he died from cancer at the age of 50, every bit as much a someone else who died peacefully in their beds aged 95. When we get to heaven I don't think anyone'll care two hoots about someone else having had slightly more earthly years than them. And even if you do turn around to someone and say "you could have had another 30 years if you'd had my faith", what would be the good of that when earthly life is past?

My brother didn't even get to two before he died. It was a sad event which has, or had, affected the lives of several in my family. I don't know why it happened. But now? He's been in heaven for nearly 40 years, I've been rejoicing/struggling/learning/growing down here on earth. Which one of us is better off?

Nono, God is not incapable of anything. But we have the "power of life and death in the tongue". When we speak, it's powerful. No matter what the faith. I know a lady whose son got mad at her, and told her to die. The next day she was in a car accident this close to death. He wasn't believing that she would actually die, but she almost did. That's all I meant by that. God can do anything he wants, and wants an empty vessel to use, too.

I didn't say God wanted me to do that, I said I want to do that so I can bless Him. Not the other way around. I agree, it is what you do with the years you have that is important.... And the more years we have, the more we can get done.

The fact is correct. People do die with pain and sickness. It happens. But it doesn't have to, that's why we're here.

I'm sure your brother is better off, but of course he is, he's in Heaven. Fact is, we're all still here. It's life... We'll have to deal with all kinds of junk until we're dead. Then we'll ALL be better off. But that doesn't really matter now, because we're all here now.

 

[Strong in Him]

Nono, God is not incapable of anything. But we have the "power of life and death in the tongue". When we speak, it's powerful. No matter what the faith. I know a lady whose son got mad at her, and told her to die. The next day she was in a car accident this close to death. He wasn't believing that she would actually die, but she almost did. That's all I meant by that.

Yes it is powerful when we speak, people have grown up with terrible self images, all because someone told them they were stupid/ugly/useless etc. And the mind is important too, Paul told us to dwell on things that are good, righteous, noble, excellent, praiseworthy etc etc. But it's not a superstition - just because we say something it doesn't mean that it will happen. God is good and merciful, he can do something anyway, regardless of what we might say. I have had all kinds of negative scenarios going through my mind over the years - none of which have happened. I guess the most topical one at the moment is when I hand in an assignment with the words "this isn't very good and will probably fail." Does my tutor think "oh she's expecting to fail, I'd better not disappoint her"? No, I've passed all my assignments so far. Does God think "oh she's said something negative, I'd better make sure something negative happens"? No, of course not.

 

[probinson]

God is good and merciful, he can do something anyway, regardless of what we might say.

This is very true. One only needs to look at John 5 and the healing of the man at the pool of Bethesda. This is a clear demonstration of God's sovreignty. The man at the pool did nothing to receive his healing. Jesus just healed him out of the blue. The man didn't even ask for healing.

On the other hand, the woman with the issue of blood pressed through the crowd and sought Jesus in faith to receive her healing. IOW, she *gasp* did something to receive her healing.

So then, we have two choices. We can be like the man at the pool and sit around and wait for Jesus and His sovreignty to come to us and HOPE that someday, Jesus will come OR we can be like the woman with the issue of blood and fervently seek Jesus in faith to receive our healing.

 

[FireOfGod]

God is good and merciful, he can do something anyway, regardless of what we might say.

Of course...

 

[Questioning Christian]

QC ur an idiot... and a jerk... thanks..

You're most welcome ...

Oh, wait ... I'm missing something here. Hmm ...

Oh yeah, the part where I was talking to YOU.

 

[mysparrow]

Im reminded of Hezekiah, who was on his deathbed, he didnt want to go yet, so he petitioned the Lord for more time, God granted it to him even though he had planned to take him home , look what Hezekiah had to go through by asking for longer , much destruction, and heartache, sometimes God gives us what we ask for, even though its not really what he considers the good thing or best things. Just a thought.