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Where is the hope in atheism?

gaara4158

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Though as for the question of meaning, how can you subjectively create anything? You could as easily say that we have subjective experiences of God, and because this idea of God now exists, you cannot deny the existence of God. It isn't arbitrary to reject something's existence because it's subjective--my question would be whether it's even coherent to say that something only exists subjectively. There are underlying issues here: do we actually create meaning? What are we really referring to with the word "meaning," and how does one go about creating it at all?
If your concept of God is confined to the subjective experiences you have of it, then God is as real as pain, pleasure, joy, and sorrow. That's fine, it's just placing God in the subjective realm. To argue that it's incoherent to say that anything exists subjectively is to deny the existence of the most ancient sensations our nervous system has evolved to produce. I'd like to see someone seriously deny the existence of pain.

You are asking very, very good questions in regards to what "meaning" really is and how we can create it on our own. Better men than I have made it their life's work to answer these questions. In my own words, I'd say it refers to a personally self-justifying motivation to continue on living and work towards one's goals. Psychology professor Dr. Jordan Peterson has a whole lecture series and a book called Maps of Meaning that explores how each person can create meaning for themselves, but the main takeaway is that we create meaning by taking on responsibility.
 
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Moral Orel

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No, the atheist cannot actually appeal to mystery.
LOL Sure they can! Everyone can! It's as simple as shrugging your shoulders!

The theist can say that God is inherently good and that this is where all of our concepts of morality ultimately spring from, but unless the atheist is going to be a Platonist and claim that the Good actually exists as an aspect of reality, this path is not open. You cannot appeal to a mystery if you reject the existence of said mystery.
Mystery =/= God.

No, I would still say that atheism is nihilistic at its heart. This does not mean any particular atheist is barred from being a moral realist, though.
These statements seem to contradict each other. Either there are moral facts or not, right? How is "nihilism at the heart of atheism" if this statement is true:
I would agree that an atheist need not be a moral nihilist because an atheist can actually be a moral realist instead.
?

But at the end of the day, there's still no point to anything.
At the end of the day on Friday I earned enough money to buy some more chocolate ice cream (with brownies in it this time!). So the point of going to work was to get chocolate ice cream, so this statement is demonstrably false.
 
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Silmarien

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If your concept of God is confined to the subjective experiences you have of it, then God is as real as pain, pleasure, joy, and sorrow. That's fine, it's just placing God in the subjective realm. To argue that it's incoherent to say that anything exists subjectively is to deny the existence of the most ancient sensations our nervous system has evolved to produce. I'd like to see someone seriously deny the existence of pain.

There is a brand of materialism that very much does deny the reality of subjective experience: eliminativism. If I were a materialist, I would have to side with them and write off those ancient sensations as being in some sense illusory, our brains tricking themselves into thinking that the targeting computer is actually real. Anything that cannot be described objectively does not exist. It is just conceptual confusion and folk psychology.

If you want to see someone come close to denying that pain exists, here's Daniel Dennett to the rescue: Why You Can't Make a Computer that Feels Pain

You are asking very, very good questions in regards to what "meaning" really is and how we can create it on our own. Better men than I have made it their life's work to answer these questions. In my own words, I'd say it refers to a personally self-justifying motivation to continue on living and work towards one's goals. Psychology professor Dr. Jordan Peterson has a whole lecture series called Maps of Meaning that explores how each person can create meaning for themselves, but the main takeaway is that we create meaning by taking on responsibility.

I really need to read Jordan Peterson at some point. From what I've seen of him, I'm a far more convinced theist than he is, but his pseudo-Christianity is pretty familiar.

I'm not sure it really works, though. You can take on responsibilities and find meaning through them, but if you start examining the purpose of those responsibilities, you're going to fall into a ditch. This is how I always looked at it: you try to do well in high school to get into a good college, you try to do well in college to get a good job, you try to succeed at your job in order to... make money? Feel important according to the (ultimately meaningless) standards of your society? Games within games within games. That's all it seems to be in the end.

These statements seem to contradict each other. Either there are moral facts or not, right? How is "nihilism at the heart of atheism" if this statement is true:

No contradiction. An atheist can believe that there are moral facts and thus be a moral realist. This does not mean that their theories are right or complete.

At the end of the day on Friday I earned enough money to buy some more chocolate ice cream (with brownies in it this time!). So the point of going to work was to get chocolate ice cream, so this statement is demonstrably false.

Seriously, it's like you're broadcasting from within that nihilistic heart of atheism with responses like this. If this is where meaning is to be found, stop the world. I want to get off. ^_^
 
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Moral Orel

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No contradiction. An atheist can believe that there are moral facts and thus be a moral realist. This does not mean that their theories are right or complete.
How is nihilism at the heart of atheism if an "atheist need not be a moral nihilist"? Who does have a theory that is right and/or complete? That's the only distinction you mentioned here.

Seriously, it's like you're broadcasting from within that nihilistic heart of atheism with responses like this. If this is where meaning is to be found, stop the world. I want to get off. ^_^
So what you're really saying is that "I don't see a point that I like to anything" not that there's no point to anything. Sounds pretty subjective to me. I could come up with some lofty, hippy-sounding peace-and-love reasons to do things, and they'd work just as well to show your statements are false, but ice cream works too.
 
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apogee

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I could come up with some lofty, hippy-sounding peace-and-love reasons to do things, and they'd work just as well to show your statements are false, but ice cream works too.

You could try, and people clearly do, but they wouldn't be any more substantial than your currently melting ice cream.
 
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apogee

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You could try, and people clearly do, but they wouldn't be any more substantial than your currently melting ice cream.

Although you could provide a detailed justification for how you arrived at your morality, and demonstrate why it is clearly superior to any other that has come before.

You could even say that it did not originate out of 'my reflections' on reality, but rather out of 'my struggle' with it.
 
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Moral Orel

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You could try, and people clearly do, but they wouldn't be any more substantial than your currently melting ice cream.
All I demonstrate with the ice cream is that I value something. Are you saying that I do not value ice cream? From that I have a reason to go to work tomorrow, that being to buy more ice cream. I'm not trying to answer the meaning of life for you or me or anyone else. I'm demonstrating that I create value and purpose. Now if you can show me that I don't value ice cream, or that ice cream is not a purpose to go to work tomorrow, I'm all ears.

Although you could provide a detailed justification for how you arrived at your morality, and demonstrate why it is clearly superior to any other that has come before.

You could even say that it did not originate out of 'my reflections' on reality, but rather out of 'my struggle' with it.
I never said my version of morality is superior to anyone else's. Subjectivity isn't about "right or wrong" or "correct or incorrect" or "better or worse". Like trying to state the length of a point in mathematics, it simply isn't measured in those dimensions. I think it more accurately describes the situation, but it certainly doesn't answer any of those difficult questions that so many people desperately need answers to. It essentially states, "You're asking the wrong questions". Frustrating, I know, when you wonder, "Do I have the correct values?". With subjectivity that question is nonsense. It isn't "wrong", it's incoherent.

I think that every choice can be traced back to a subjective emotion at the heart of it. If I choose to not put change in a Salvation Army bucket, it makes me feel bad because I want the bell ringer to think I'm a good person. If you do put change in, it's because you feel good to know that others will feel good as a result of your actions. Not to be too presumptuous, but you did diagnose yourself as an empath, so that's a safe bet.


ETA My ice cream is safely in the freezer, thank you very much!
 
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apogee

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All I demonstrate with the ice cream is that I value something.

Naturally, I don't think anyone would dispute this, certainly not me.

I never said my version of morality is superior to anyone else's. Subjectivity isn't about "right or wrong" or "correct or incorrect" or "better or worse".

Naturally, it's absurd to suggest any subjective view of morality is better than any other, without a fixed point of reference how could you? Apart from consensus I suppose, but really that's just an aggregation by which you can gauge deviation.

If I choose to not put change in a Salvation Army bucket, it makes me feel bad because I want the bell ringer to think I'm a good person. If you do put change in, it's because you feel good to know that others will feel good as a result of your actions. Not to be too presumptuous, but you did diagnose yourself as an empath, so that's a safe bet.

I wouldn't give it to a Sally Army officer if I were you, they're only going to go and spend it on drugs.
 
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Moral Orel

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Naturally, I don't think anyone would dispute this, certainly not me.
You would think, but no. Silmarian disagrees and says that if value isn't intrinsic, then it isn't real, so I don't really value ice cream. And if you've been following the whole discussion between us, she's been getting "likes" and "agrees" from Quid est Veritas and 2PhiloVoid most of the way, so it seems that some of peanut gallery also thinks that I don't value ice cream. I'm glad you agree with me that's silly though.
 
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bhsmte

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You would think, but no. Silmarian disagrees and says that if value isn't intrinsic, then it isn't real, so I don't really value ice cream. And if you've been following the whole discussion between us, she's been getting "likes" and "agrees" from Quid est Veritas and 2PhiloVoid most of the way, so it seems that some of peanut gallery also thinks that I don't value ice cream. I'm glad you agree with me that's silly though.

Any personal value you place on anything, is real to you, because you determine what has value. Anyone who can't grant you that, has some personal belief, they need to protect.
 
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Moral Orel

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Any personal value you place on anything, is real to you, because you determine what has value. Anyone who can't grant you that, has some personal belief, they need to protect.
I get that. I think the argument is that if it's only real to me then it isn't really real. Now when I say "real" I mean that it exists. So since I know I feel something, I know that's real. Maybe they mean something else. I dunno. Since so many people keep talking about how it would be silly to make ice cream the meaning of life, which I never said, I'm pretty sure what people are getting at is that they subjectively think my subjective values aren't as subjectively valuable as what they subjectively value, and that's an objective fact! No one will tell me how to objectively measure value though...

I don't think the motivation comes out of protecting belief. I think that some genuinely feel like my subjective values aren't as valuable as their subjective values. They just don't recognize that "that's just like your opinion, man".
 
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bhsmte

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I get that. I think the argument is that if it's only real to me then it isn't really real. Now when I say "real" I mean that it exists. So since I know I feel something, I know that's real. Maybe they mean something else. I dunno. Since so many people keep talking about how it would be silly to make ice cream the meaning of life, which I never said, I'm pretty sure what people are getting at is that they subjectively think my subjective values aren't as subjectively valuable as what they subjectively value, and that's an objective fact! No one will tell me how to objectively measure value though...

I don't think the motivation comes out of protecting belief. I think that some genuinely feel like my subjective values aren't as valuable as their subjective values. They just don't recognize that "that's just like your opinion, man".

Well, if someone thinks their subjective values are superior to yours, and then somehow yours don't have as much value, that tells me some personal belief is being protected.
 
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Silmarien

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You would think, but no. Silmarian disagrees and says that if value isn't intrinsic, then it isn't real, so I don't really value ice cream.

No, I never said that you do not really value ice cream. Only that there is no genuine reason for you to actually value it.

You're equating morality with personal preferences in a way that makes moral decision making no different than picking a favorite ice cream flavor. This is deeply, deeply nihilistic, and potentially problematic if you care about things like the functioning of society.

Any personal value you place on anything, is real to you, because you determine what has value. Anyone who can't grant you that, has some personal belief, they need to protect.

I do. That personal belief is called liberal democracy and human rights. Fascism is on the rise again, and personal feelings is not a valid reponse to it.
 
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bhsmte

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No, I never said that you do not really value ice cream. Only that there is no genuine reason for you to actually value it.

You're equating morality with personal preferences in a way that makes moral decision making no different than picking a favorite ice cream flavor. This is deeply, deeply nihilistic, and potentially problematic if you care about things like the functioning of society.



I do. That personal belief is called liberal democracy and human rights. Fascism is on the rise again, and personal feelings is not a valid reponse to it.

Do you determine genuine reasons, for each person?
 
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Silmarien

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Do you determine genuine reasons, for each person?

Only in that it needs to have an objective basis. "I like it because I like it" is a tautology, not a reason.
 
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bhsmte

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Only in that it needs to have an objective basis. "I like it because I like it" is a tautology, not a reason.

Did anyone claim, liking a certain flavor of ice cream has an objective basis?

Why would a personal value that is genuine to an individual, have to have an objective basis, for that value to be real and genuine to that specific person?
 
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Silmarien

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Did anyone claim, liking a certain flavor of ice cream has an objective basis?

Why would a personal value that is genuine to an individual, have to have an objective basis, for that value to be real and genuine to that specific person?

Because otherwise, it's irrational and groundless. How are you even going to begin to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you? If you can't defend your views and refuse to even make the attempt, how can you claim that they're real or genuine?
 
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bhsmte

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Because otherwise, it's irrational and groundless. How are you even going to begin to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you? If you can't defend your views and refuse to even make the attempt, how can you claim that they're real or genuine?

Why would personal values, need to be defended or rationalized to someone else for them to be genuine to that individual?

I love the taste of chocolate ice cream with peanut butter and the value I have placed on that, is genuine to me. I also love the challenge of pushing myself physically with exercise, to my limits. That value is genuine to me and remains genuine, whether someone other than me, can relate to it or not.

I love my kids as well, for genuine personal reasons. I act on my personal values and likes and am personally motivated by them. I have zero desire or need to have someone else validate them.
 
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apogee

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Why would personal values, need to be defended or rationalized to someone else for them to be genuine to that individual?

I completely agree

I love the taste of chocolate ice cream with peanut butter and the value I have placed on that, is genuine to me. I also love the challenge of pushing myself physically with exercise, to my limits. That value is genuine to me and remains genuine, whether someone other than me, can relate to it or not.

I don't mind peanut butter, but mixing it with jelly is Objectively abhorrent and should never be done.

I love my kids as well, for genuine personal reasons. I act on my personal values and likes and am personally motivated by them. I have zero desire or need to have someone else validate them.

I uphold this completely, but it still doesn't change the fact that there is a really immense black hole in the centre of Atheism that none of these things is really able to fill, and that, whether you believe in God or not, is a really big problem.
 
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