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Where is the hope in atheism?

2PhiloVoid

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Yeah, I edited "inherently more filled with" to "inherently more prone to" after thinking about that for a minute. You can make a dogma out of anything, really, but religions seem to be in the business of it. I'm not saying all religions are dogmatic, that no atheistic worldview has dogmatic elements, or that dogma is necessarily a bad thing. We were talking about whether it's more logical to approach a gap in human understanding as something that science may one day explain, or something supernatural and therefore a "god of the gaps." I have argued that a scientific approach is more reasonable because a) it's the only way we can expect to confirm an explanation whether it's possible or not and b) depending on the god you insert into that gap, you risk importing additional dogmas that a purely scientific approach does not.

I'm not against theistic ideas or explanations themselves. I just contend that by their nature, they can't really be examined with any of the rigor necessary to be confirmed or denied in a good epistemology.
My contention would be that it is very, very difficult to really come by a so-called, "good epistemology." Having some framework or method which seemingly fits all your data into some nice and tidy brick wall of Justified True Belief(s), or some other such pleasing arrangement, is actually hard to come by, and not as easy to attain--maybe not even possible--to the extent to which some Atheists and Christians make it sound like it can be. I think this is ESPECIALLY the case with religion, most particularly with the Christian faith as it really is both extra-biblically and biblically speaking; it can't really be subject to the same epistemological structures as is human scientific endeavor, and even with science, what we think we have discovered is usually open to further 'correction.' Of course, this last part you knew already. (In saying all of this, I'm taking a cue from Ralph Baergen.)

I would say that when it comes to religion, and not just science, there is also such a thing as being too Promethean in one's expectations about what one actually can gain and then posit as "truth." I've heard too many times claims from Christians (but some atheists, too) that..."the Evidence is IN!!!! Make a decision!" Of course, I just roll my eyes when I hear this kind of talk. :rolleyes:

And so, where is this "good epistemology" to be found, Gaara?
 
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gaara4158

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My contention would be that it is very, very difficult to really come by a so-called, "good epistemology." Having some framework or method which seemingly fits all your data into some nice and tidy brick wall of Justified True Belief(s), or some other such pleasing arrangement, is actually hard to come by, and not as easy to attain--maybe not even possible--to the extent to which some Atheists and Christians make it sound like it can be. I think this is ESPECIALLY the case with religion, most particularly with the Christian faith as it really is both extra-biblically and biblically speaking; it can't really be subject to the same epistemological structures as is human scientific endeavor, and even then, what we think we have discovered is usually open to further 'correction.' Of course, this last part you knew already. (In saying all of this, I'm taking a cue from Ralph Baergen.)
Depends how good you want it to be. It won’t be perfect, of course, but I build my epistemology based on Pierce’s pragmatic maxim. Pragmatic maxim - Wikipedia

It seems to me that the only reason we seek knowledge at all is because we want to be able to apply it in order to achieve some desired result. It follows, then, that we gain knowledge by confirming a proposition’s ability or inability to predict results reliably when applied.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Depends how good you want it to be. It won’t be perfect, of course, but I build my epistemology based on Pierce’s pragmatic maxim. Pragmatic maxim - Wikipedia

It seems to me that the only reason we seek knowledge at all is because we want to be able to apply it in order to achieve some desired result. It follows, then, that we gain knowledge by confirming a proposition’s ability or inability to predict results reliably when applied.

Ok. So, you're a Pragmatist. In some respects, a few anyway, that's not too far off from my being a Hermeneuticist. Most likely, without having had further discussion, I'd surmise that the difference between our methods for handling epistemic expectations as they relate to the Christian faith may come down to our asking that old question about whether the Chicken, or the Egg, comes first. Anyway, both positions can be criticized. Neither is an exception.

In fact, as far as I can tell, there are no exceptions to human epistemology, only bold attempts wherein we each assert that we have created our own little epistemic Frankenstein by which we cry out, "Eureka! I have the absolute Truth now! I feel content." Personally, I think that if we also pay attention to the Epistemic Indicia embedded within the Bible and we take these indicia into account, even though they aren't numerous and comprehensively explicated by any means, then these biblical epistemic principles, if true, mitigate some of our individual, autonomous attempts to build the perfect epistemology from outside of the Bible and by which we then try to apply to (or foist upon) the Bible.

Too often, Atheists and Christians assume to resort to, and rely upon, some particular epistemic structure which they think is the Granddaddy of epistemologies and which dispels any and all uncertainties for their respective views. Granted, I can admit that some epistemologies actually may be more substantive than others when applied, but it might only be so during certain occasions and not typically on a universal scale. Even then, to say that one epistemology is more substantive than another isn't to say that our own epistemology has actually done for us what we think it is doing.

Ok. So. What is your pragmatic gripe with the Christian faith? I have to ask since this is the Christian Apologetics section after all. ;)
 
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Silmarien

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Then surely you understand there's no point in arguing there's no meaning to someone who believes there is...they're equally valid positions.

Not really. Objectively speaking, there is no meaning in reality unless you're a Platonist of one variety or another. If someone is a Platonist, then the discussion changes, but subjectively producing meaning is like subjectively producing morals--drop the transcendentals and it's sleight of hand, nothing more. It's part of our nature to view reality simultaneously from subjective and objective perspectives, and meaning and meaninglessness cannot be reconciled.

I would go after theists too in true Kierkegaardian fashion, though, since there's still an inevitable disconnect between God as the source of everything (including value), and human subjective valuation. We cannot bridge it, we cannot really explain it, but at least here it seems more a mystery in the theological sense than a fantasy.
 
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gaara4158

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In fact, as far as I can tell, there are no exceptions to human epistemology, only bold attempts wherein we each assert that we have created our own little epistemic Frankenstein by which we cry out, "Eureka! I have the absolute Truth now! I feel content." Personally, I think that if we also pay attention to the Epistemic Indicia embedded within the Bible and we take these indicia into account, even though they aren't numerous and comprehensively explicated by any means, then these biblical epistemic principles, if true, mitigate some of our individual, autonomous attempts to build the perfect epistemology from outside of the Bible and by which we then try to apply to (or foist upon) the Bible.

Too often, Atheists and Christians assume to resort to, and rely upon, some particular epistemic structure which they think is the Granddaddy of epistemologies and which dispels any and all uncertainties for their respective views. Granted, I can admit that some epistemologies actually may be more substantive than others when applied, but it might only be so during certain occasions and not typically on a universal scale. Even then, to say that one epistemology is more substantive than another isn't to say that our own epistemology has actually done for us what we think it is doing.

Yes, it's important to realize that no matter how smart you think you are, there is no epistemology that can lead you to absolute certitude of things pertaining to the outside world. There will always be a disconnect between reality and ourselves. That's why I find it so important to measure truth by what we can actually do with it, because a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Ok. So. What is your pragmatic gripe with the Christian faith? I have to ask since this is the Christian Apologetics section after all. ;)

The Christian faith as a whole? I don't necessarily have a problem with people saying "We can't be sure, but I prefer to believe there's a loving God out there with a vested interest in our well-being." But when it gets into making claims about reality that would affect the way you live your life, there seems to be no way to test those claims. In some ways, such tests are outright prohibited (Luke 4:12 "You shall not put your God to the test"). Take the claim that there's an afterlife, since that's a big deal to OP. The only way to empirically test this would be to die and either find yourself in an afterlife, or not find yourself at all. Either way, the result of this test would come at such a time that it is no longer useful to your decision-making. But perhaps there's another way to test for an afterlife. If those who have died are in an afterlife right now, maybe we could detect them. But how? We wouldn't know what to test for. If we don't know what we're testing for, we can't eliminate anything we find as "not it." Who knows, maybe in the afterlife the dead really do manifest in reality as blurry apparitions in out-of-focus video footage. We just can't say. And that's why I say we shouldn't believe claims of this unfalsifiable nature. And yet, people are making major life decisions (or worse - writing public policy) on unfalsifiable claims found in religious texts. I am concerned that people are depriving themselves of a life they would find more fulfilling in order to toe a line drawn by a god that doesn't exist, and I'm even more concerned that my life will be negatively affected by someone conducting themselves in a way they believe is mandated by God.
 
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Silmarien

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Yeah, I edited "inherently more filled with" to "inherently more prone to" after thinking about that for a minute. You can make a dogma out of anything, really, but religions seem to be in the business of it. I'm not saying all religions are dogmatic, that no atheistic worldview has dogmatic elements, or that dogma is necessarily a bad thing. We were talking about whether it's more logical to approach a gap in human understanding as something that science may one day explain, or something supernatural and therefore a "god of the gaps." I have argued that a scientific approach is more reasonable because a) it's the only way we can expect to confirm an explanation whether it's possible or not and b) depending on the god you insert into that gap, you risk importing additional dogmas that a purely scientific approach does not.

Well, there's the old saying: when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. This is why dogmatism is immediately imported whenever you argue that scientific knowledge be placed in some privileged position. All the tools of science become metaphysical claims rather than methodological choices, and dogma builds without anyone even noticing that this is what it is.

I find it interesting that religious scientists are accused of compartmentalizing, since they're simultaneously capable of adhering to scientific methodology in the lab while believing in God and perhaps other religious claims outside of that. This is a simplification presupposing that science conflicts with religion, but it's not entirely false. There's a lot of cultural baggage that scientifically inclined religious people are aware of that the average atheist is not. So I would say that the real danger lies with those who don't have the tools or perspective to separate methodology from ontology, whether they be ID theorists or hard materialists. Unfortunately, only one of these two things is publically recognized as a problem.

I'm not against theistic ideas or explanations themselves. I just contend that by their nature, they can't really be examined with any of the rigor necessary to be confirmed or denied in a good epistemology.

I'd say the opposite. An epistemology that automatically rules out theism is a bad epistemology.

Theistic ideas are by their nature in the realm of metaphysics rather than empirical science, so they can't really be investigated empirically. It'd be like trying to empirically determine which theory of quantum physics is best. The problem is that there is no neutral framework, and if you try to build one, it'll just morph into a form of positivism with its own unexamined presuppositions.

Oh, that's easy. He's taking the objective, cosmic perspective to be more valid or important than his own subjective one, but that importance comes from his subjective values, not logical necessity. Also, Problem of Evil in Naturalism? How's that work?

The Problem of Evil can be reflected back upon the naturalist, because if you're going to claim that reality is not good enough to be the creation of a benevolent God, then you are effectively saying that by human terms, existence is not good. You cannot use these arguments against a theist and then turn around and tell a pessimist that it's a matter of subjective valuation. If someone is going to make a fuss about what suffering means for theism and then turn around and talk about how wonderful and awe-inspiring life is, I am going to call them out for it.

Either suffering is redeemable and the Problem of Evil fails, or suffering is not redeemable and we must accept that reality is for all intents and purposes terrible, if only from the subjective human perspective. You can't have it both ways. Every evidentiary argument in favor of the Problem of Evil is also an argument in favor of pessimism, and at some point that has moral consequences.
 
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Silmarien

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It seems to me that the only reason we seek knowledge at all is because we want to be able to apply it in order to achieve some desired result. It follows, then, that we gain knowledge by confirming a proposition’s ability or inability to predict results reliably when applied.

I would contest this. I suspect that often enough we seek knowledge for its own sake, not for practical reasons. If someone tells you they have a secret, is your main concern whether or not there could be any practical application of knowing what it might be?

I think a pragmatic approach to knowledge could land us in a situation where education is only as important as someone's personal circumstances, and nobody has any reason to know more than the basics about things outside of their field of expertise, since there is no practical application.

And yet, people are making major life decisions (or worse - writing public policy) on unfalsifiable claims found in religious texts. I am concerned that people are depriving themselves of a life they would find more fulfilling in order to toe a line drawn by a god that doesn't exist, and I'm even more concerned that my life will be negatively affected by someone conducting themselves in a way they believe is mandated by God.

This last one goes both ways. A lot of conservatives out there are worried that their lives are going to be negatively affected by what they consider indoctrination by the liberal elite. I disagree with them politically, but I don't think they're entirely wrong to be concerned. You don't even need to be religious to act like you're on some divinely mandated crusade, and that's something I see a lot.

Besides that, I think that it's worth pointing out that we cannot live our lives treating everything like it must be falsifiable. Are people going to start spying on their spouses to make sure they're not being cheated on? That would be madness. Are we going to do away with the concept of moral responsibility until we can scientifically determine whether or not free will actually exists? I certainly hope not. If you are not making major life decisions on incomplete and unfalsiable information, you are probably not making any major life decisions at all.

I can't find it now, but I was reading an article over at Strange Notions the other day that discussed the difference between scientific problems and genuine mysteries, the second not referring to something science hasn't figured out yet, but questions about reality that necessarily include us as a part of the puzzle. "Why are we here?" is a different question than "What quirk of fate led to the evolution of homo sapiens?" Science can answer the second question, but if you're going to wait around for it to come up with a meaningful answer to the first one, you're going to be waiting a very long time. Religion at its best is about the mysteries of existence, not necessarily about providing explanations for phenomena, and that is what often gets overlooked.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Not really. Objectively speaking, there is no meaning in reality unless you're a Platonist of one variety or another. If someone is a Platonist, then the discussion changes, but subjectively producing meaning is like subjectively producing morals--.


Ummm...morals and meaning are subjectively created.

I don't see how they could possibly be otherwise.
 
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Silmarien

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Ana the Ist

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Then they're fictions. Potentially useful, but look too closely and they'll go up in smoke.

I'm not sure what you mean by this...

Lots of things are subjective, but that doesn't make them fictional.



Read Plato?

Long ago. Why? Did he magically come up with a method for objectively demonstrating/proving morals and meanings that I missed?
 
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Silmarien

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I'm not sure what you mean by this...

Lots of things are subjective, but that doesn't make them fictional.

If you subjectively see the color blue, then your experience of blue is not a fiction. I am not sure what we would even mean by saying that something is subjectively good or meaningful, unless we're using imprecise language to specify that we like certain things.

Long ago. Why? Did he magically come up with a method for objectively demonstrating/proving morals and meanings that I missed?

Who said anything about objectively proving morals and meaning? You seemed confused by the mere concept of objective morality or objective meaning. Objective truths about morality, if they exist, don't depend upon our ability to demonstrate them. Plato provides a way to conceptualize such a possibility, which should help anyone baffled by the very idea.
 
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Ana the Ist

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If you subjectively see the color blue, then your experience of blue is not a fiction. I am not sure what we would even mean by saying that something is subjectively good or meaningful, unless we're using imprecise language to specify that we like certain things.

Odd, it sounds like you understand just fine.

Pick a moral or meaning statement, then slap the words "in my opinion" in front of it, and proceed.

Example...

In my opinion, it's good to not judge others.

Does it make sense to you now?

Who said anything about objectively proving morals and meaning?

I did. Without that, claims of objective morality are just philosophical hot air...at best.

You seemed confused by the mere concept of objective morality or objective meaning. Objective truths about morality, if they exist, don't depend upon our ability to demonstrate them.

It's the "if" in that statement that's the problem. We're talking about concepts that are entirely subject dependent.

What would meaning be without a subject to create it? What would morality be without any subject to decide it?

In a universe bereft of sentient life, these things have the same value as nothing.


Plato provides a way to conceptualize such a possibility, which should help anyone baffled by the very idea.

Who cares about conceptualizing it?

Can you approach these things by any means other than conceptualization?

If not, why would you ever think them anything but subjective?
 
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Silmarien

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In my opinion, it's good to not judge others.

Does it make sense to you now?

It's an empty assertion. It means nothing.

In a universe bereft of sentient life, these things have the same value as nothing.

In a universe with sentient life, they still have the same value as nothing.
 
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Ana the Ist

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It's an empty assertion. It means nothing.

To you perhaps. That's the nature of subjectivity.

Looks like you're getting it.


In a universe with sentient life, they still have the same value as nothing.

Not to those with sentience.
 
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Silmarien

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To you perhaps. That's the nature of subjectivity.

Looks like you're getting it.

Sorry, but no. Your concept of morality is completely vacuous. If "In my opinion, it's good to not judge others" is a moral statement, then "In my opinion, watermelon tastes good" can also be a moral statement. There is no content whatsoever to your notion of subjective morality.

It may be my subjective opinion that this necessarily entails nihilism, but you have done nothing to demonstrate that this in any way incorrect. Quite the opposite. If all subjective opinions are equally valid, then we should all simply accept that a good portion of the American people would like to see Creationism taught in schools, and that this is a completely valid subjective opinion. There is no reason not to oppose them, because our own ideals do not extend past ourselves. Either that or we're into Will to Power, and morality is to be determined by whoever is the strongest. Either way, nihilism.

It's also odd to me that someone who is so focused on the nature of subjectivity would declare any position but his own to be a matter of "philosophical hot air," but I guess that's what we've come to.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Sorry, but no. Your concept of morality is completely vacuous. If "In my opinion, it's good to not judge others" is a moral statement, then "In my opinion, watermelon tastes good" can also be a moral statement. There is no content whatsoever to your notion of subjective morality.

Well now you're just being silly. One's opinion about one thing isn't necessarily interchangable with another. Your opinion about a sunny day isn't the same as your favorite color isn't the same as the goodness of a behavior or action.


It may be my subjective opinion that this necessarily entails nihilism, but you have done nothing to demonstrate that this in any way incorrect.

Why would I lol? It's an opinion. I can no more disprove an opinion than you can prove your morals are objective lol.


You've only further demonstrated it. If all subjective opinions are equally valid, then we should all simply accept that a good portion of the American people would like to see Creationism taught in schools, and that this is a completely valid subjective opinion.

Well, that's different. It doesn't lie entirely in the subjective realm does it? It relates to a set of facts which have evidence.



There is no reason not to oppose them, because our own ideals do not extend past ourselves. Either that or we're into Will to Power, and morality is to be determined by whoever is the strongest. Either way, nihilism.

See above.


It's also odd to me that someone who is so focused on the nature of subjectivity would declare any position but his own to be a matter of "philosophical hot air," but I guess that's what we've come to.

Ok. Demonstrate/prove/or in any way show the objectivity of meaning or morality. I'm open to any method you consider possible.
 
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Silmarien

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Why would I lol? It's an opinion. I can no more disprove an opinion than you can prove your morals are objective lol.

How on earth does that follow? It's the opinion of plenty of people on this forum that evolution is false. Are you going to say, "Oh well, that's your opinion so I have no way of showing where you've gone wrong"?

Well, that's different. It doesn't lie entirely in the subjective realm does it? It relates to a set of facts which have evidence.

There is no evidence that there's anything wrong with teaching Creationism, unless you can demonstrate that there is any content behind the notion that things can be right and wrong. What weight does your subjective opinion that schools ought to teach correct information really have behind it? Apparently none.

You really do want to have your cake and eat it too when it comes to this notion of subjective values. Once values come into the picture, by your own admission, everything does lie entirely in the subjective realm.

Ok. Demonstrate/prove/or in any way show the objectivity of meaning or morality. I'm open to any method you consider possible.

I honestly doubt that. Look up Neo-Aristotelian ethics if you really want a taste of how I would conceive of objective morality, but I'm not interested in going off on a tangent here.
 
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Ana the Ist

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How on earth does that follow? It's the opinion of plenty of people on this forum that evolution is false. Are you going to say, "Oh well, that's your opinion so I have no way of showing where you've gone wrong"?

I already explained this. Evolution doesn't lie entirely within the subjective realm. One can disagree with the facts, but they are facts regardless.

When one disagrees on a moral opinion, the disagreement isn't on the facts. If a person kills another and you call it good, and I call it bad, the disagreement has nothing to do with the facts. We both know one person killed another. The disagreement is on our respective value judgements about that fact. Morality is nothing more than those value judgments, and without us they don't exist. They are entirely subjective and cannot be proven either way, so they cannot be wrong or right. They are not in themselves facts.

Frankly, it's hard to believe you're struggling with this. You're pulling my leg, right?


There is no evidence that there's anything wrong with teaching Creationism, unless you can demonstrate that there is any content behind the notion that things can be right and wrong. What weight does your subjective opinion that schools ought to teach correct information really have behind it? Apparently none.

Well that's an argument about the utility of information. Do you wanna have that argument? Because I'll be arguing that knowing facts is more useful than opinions.


You really do want to have your cake and eat it too when it comes to this notion of subjective values. Once values come into the picture, by your own admission, everything does lie entirely in the subjective realm.

Again, this is a different conversation. If you and I were to agree on what an "inch" is, arguably it's objective to us...even if no one else agrees.

There's no way to do that with morality though. There's no way to even describe such a measurement to my knowledge. You and I could agree an action is bad...but we could probably never consistently agree on how bad it is.

That's another big clue that it's entirely subjective.

I honestly doubt that. Look up Neo-Aristotelian ethics if you really want a taste of how I would conceive of objective morality, but I'm not interested in going off on a tangent here.

Conception isn't the problem. You can pretend it's objective all you want, but it isn't.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Then you shouldn’t have a problem expecting science to fill the gaps in our understanding of observed phenomena as it always has in the past. Religious myth isn’t always dogma fabricated out of whole cloth; often it is based on observations that x happens when we do y. Even if these observations aren’t made under rigorous conditions, the element of recognizing correlations between x and y is a practice of science, not religion. The religious element is in the mythical explanation; without knowledge of germ theory, the religious might conclude that washing your hands before eating is a way to stave off a curse from God. They’re not wrong that it works, they’re wrong about how it works. Germ theory corrects them. Science has always been the way to determine how things work the way they do. That’s why in matters not yet apprehended by science, it is not unreasonable to expect that we might one day find a scientific explanation. It is unreasonable to expect to find a religious explanation, because religion doesn’t have a separate method of investigation. Anything we actually find, we find through science.

The only gaps we can’t reasonably expect science to fill are the ones fundamentally uninvestigable to it, and the only advantage religion has there is a lack of rules and accountability. It can be adjusted to fit any paradigm or it can be held dogmatically in the face of alternatives. The problem with this is that once you accept a religious explanation for a mystery of the universe, you risk importing all kinds of religious baggage along with it that has a real influence on your decision making. I don’t think I have to name any examples to impress on you how catastrophic this can be. If your religious explanation does not carry any baggage with it, on the other hand, what does it matter? It’s just a conversation stopper, same as calling it a brute fact.
There is no functional difference in such issues as you describe. A curse alleviated by washing hands, or an antiseptic procedure to stave off illness, is practically the same.
A secular ritual of hand washing prohibits a secular curse of infection, while in a religious context, a ritual stops a curse that manifests as infection. In fact, this can be argued to be in support of the religious belief, confirming it in this hypothetical, as some Jewish scholars have argued that the increase of Taenia Solium in pork and mercury and allergy in shellfish, confirms Kosher laws.

So really, this is not a particularly good example, and only argues for the method of understanding of ritual. Either way, ritual would be paramount, whether done in accord with a secular belief structure or a religious paradigm. It actually doesn't address the religious claim that a divinity is ultimately responsible for the working of the world, who would preside as it were, over the pathogens, and told his followers how to overcome them. Germ theory corrected nothing, but previous theories of how illness was spread here. It did not invalidate any curse in your hypothetical. If we can show that the tides are moved by gravitational pull, that doesn't mean that the set-up of existence was not done in that way by a divine hand.

This is still trying to force animal husbandry and mathematics together. They are about different things, as I tried to explain with pagan sacrifices. Roman Catholics believe in transubstantiation of the Host into the actual body and blood of Christ, but scientific investigation would still just show bread and wine. Does this matter? Not really, for that is not the point. Religion is about understanding and acting within, a metaphysical framework of reality - Science simply trying to understand a practical, material one. Religious-based claims that are just folklore or superstitition, most would accept a scientific 'debunking', but religion is not about describing our world, but interacting with it on a higher plane, as it were. So ritual or mythopoeic usage, need not reflect 'brute facts', nor would they matter there. As I explained with the Egyptians, there can be multiple explanation for phenomena within one religion or even within one thought, but as they don't invalidate each other, neither would a materialist one do so. The only reason someone would decide it does, is if they start with a axiomatic acceptance of materialist explanations as paramount for some reason, and therefore diminish other ones. That is merely a question of one's philosophy, not 'facts' as it were. What are facts? How are they determined? Why does one set of determinations predominate another?
This is not a problem religion has ever had, as it is not about describing our material world, I reiterate. This is why the Bible has two creation narratives in Genesis, or two separate genealogies for Jesus, etc. Do you think the scholars who pored over those texts, and redacted them sometimes, didn't notice?

They are very different intellectual endeavours, which is why appeals to empiricism or 'lack of evidence' are such silly things. You have to preach to the choir for such things to be effective.
Either way you have to assume a worldview, and work from within it. Religion answers question from within a religious paradigm, which is not arbitrary, but stepwise, in spite of atheist ideas to the contrary. A Trinitarian cannot deny the Incarnation, nor a Muslim Mohammed. Great Intelectual systems were created by Religions, by very intelligent men, and these aren't just rationalisations of inconvenient facts or ideas, in spite of the vain modern attempts to write them off as such. This is alongside Scientific Method usually, as seldom, if ever, do they contradict. They only do so, if the Metaphysical imported beliefs somehow gives precedence to certain interpretations, be it religious or scientific. Neither by nature MUST be true, nor need even be contradictory, except by your own assumed axiomatic values. It is merely another Metaphysical System, an assumed Materialism, placed against another system that recognises things beyond that as well. It is essentially Plato's Cave all over again.
This is where Materialism cannot confirm materialism by its own rules. Any such attempt is a Petitio Principii, for any appeal to material reality assumes the primacy thereof. This means the relativity of the value structure is laid bare, and this is why Materialism tends to Nihilism. Nothing can be established if Materialism cannot establish itself. A line in the sand needs to be drawn somewhere for meaning to exist, something acknowledged as fundamentally true. The Atheist has to do so arbitrarily, knowingly arbitrary.
The religious usually anchor their beliefs on a Divinity, usually a Ground of Being, that needs to be taken on faith. This gives bedrock though. It is how value can be ascribed. This is seen as fundamental Reality, as opposed to merely a human 'line' or assertion.

So the religious can use Scientific Method to answer any and all questions an Atheist can. But he can place more trust philosophically, perhaps, in them, than an Atheist would be able to. Further, he can investigate the teleological questions that lie beyond Scientific Method. So it is not that religion cannot answer certain questions - it certainly can, utilising Scientific Method if need be, for they are not about the same things. It is the non-religious that has a more limited armamentarium to investigate and interact with his world.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
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I think we are saying two different things.

There is no question, that those who are engaged in religious beliefs, are influenced by it, I agree. What I am saying is; science doesn't change it's methods of acquiring knowledge, based on religion and science does not alter how they interpret data and the evidence, based on religious beliefs.
Science based its methods of acquiring knowledge on Religious beliefs - the belief of an ordered, systematic, intellible world. It is not coincidence that Science arose in Christendom and somewhat in Islam, on the back of Aristotleanism. It didn't do so in India, or amongst Buddhists, with their Sunyata or the less perceptible nature of reality. A religious assumption lies at Science's core.

Further, it does alter how it interprets data and evidence based on societal beliefs, of which religion is a major part. I gave many examples above, such as Mind/Body Dualism. Read any medical study and you'll find many different interpretations based on the background or discipline of the reader. This is why Bias is such a problem, confirmational or otherwise, and why EBM has tried to get around this. My religious background or lack thereof, will fundamentally alter my understanding of scientific facts. Look at all these debates around gender identity, for a clear example, where both sides claim Science is on their side. There is no reason to suppose one interpretation of Scientific data more valid than another's, which is why Science tries to minimise such bias via stressing falsification and not 'proving' anything.

This is a very rose-tinted view of human ability. For Science is deeply fallible, as it is constructed by the foibbles and squabbles and biases of centuries of humans.
 
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