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Where is the hope in atheism?

gaara4158

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Hmm. I'd honestly rather put the concept of truth in a privileged position well outside of human reach than redefine it to mean less than it does. If things are true because they're useful, then truth and falsehood become pretty subjective. All religions (or lack thereof) are as true as they're useful to their practitioners.
The trouble with placing the concept of truth outside of human reach is that it then becomes meaningless to label things as "true" or "false." I could say it's "true" that I'm using the internet right now, but that would make my statement completely beyond anyone's reach to judge. I wouldn't even be qualified to make it myself. It's hard to say in what context we would even be able to honestly apply the word "true" to anything, even a priori. That's why I prefer to use "truth" to describe a priori facts, empirical observations, and reliably predictive models. Maybe there's another word you had in mind for that, though. It's a little more nuanced than the mere "useful" I gave you earlier, but I was pretty exhausted at the time =P You could call my truth-assignment system a sort of "rationalist empiricist pragmatism," but that's pretty much what "science" is.
 
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gaara4158

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True enough. But what I'm getting at here, since this is the Christian Apologetics forum and not the "let's just talk about the truth or error of just any ol' general metaphysics or epistemology" forum, I'm attempting to explain how the epistemic indices within the Bible, such as this one single example in the gospel of John, indicate how a person is to proceed IF he/she wants to have any opportunity at all to possibly realize the manifestation of "Christian truth."
Yeah, I see that, it's just not an epistemology that would give me any confidence in the results it produced. It seems to require me to believe in the thing I'm testing in the first place. It's not a strong apologetic approach.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yeah, I see that, it's just not an epistemology that would give me any confidence in the results it produced. It seems to require me to believe in the thing I'm testing in the first place. It's not a strong apologetic approach.

Yep. That's the "Jewish" flavor of it coming through. (No, really. It is Jewish in flavor.) In the biblical sense, wisdom is given by God to those who, without initial wisdom, ask for it and then proceed to do their best to "do" God's Will. Then, God begins to impart waves or pieces or other fragments of wisdom by which a person can grow in the faith (since it is a process after all, and not some once-and-for-all empirical recognition about "reality"). ;)
 
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Silmarien

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The trouble with placing the concept of truth outside of human reach is that it then becomes meaningless to label things as "true" or "false." I could say it's "true" that I'm using the internet right now, but that would make my statement completely beyond anyone's reach to judge. I wouldn't even be qualified to make it myself. It's hard to say in what context we would even be able to honestly apply the word "true" to anything, even a priori. That's why I prefer to use "truth" to describe a priori facts, empirical observations, and reliably predictive models. Maybe there's another word you had in mind for that, though. It's a little more nuanced than the mere "useful" I gave you earlier, but I was pretty exhausted at the time =P You could call my truth-assignment system a sort of "rationalist empiricist pragmatism," but that's pretty much what "science" is.

Wellll, now you're going to need to deal with @2PhiloVoid's Jewish epistemology and my Platonism at the same time. Sorry, can't be helped. ^_^

Truth exists independently of the human mind. Truth is reality as it ultimately is, apart from all our attempts to conceptualize it. All of our theorizing about it is objectively truer or falser depending on how close we come to a correct understanding of reality, but could we ever come to possess full knowledge of the truth? No, I don't see how we possibly could. It's the finite grasping at the infinite.

I don't like cheapening the value of the word "truth," because as soon as you do that, you end up at a radical postmodernism where truth becomes nothing more than a language game--something is true depending on how consistent it is within a framework of statements made about the world. But it seems to me that we're genuinely grasping for something far different than conceptually coherency. It doesn't mean anything that the statement "grass is green" is true within a particular framework if it ultimately turns out that there's no such thing as grass.

If there's going to be any possibility of progress in knowledge, in our understanding of truth, then there has to be something that we are progressing towards. We can label things as truer or falser based on our imperfect knowledge, understanding the limits thereof, but if there is no independent concept of truth apart from ourselves, then there's nothing to progress towards. No reason to use the word "truth" at all.

I guess you could call this an Absurdist Platonism--there's a paradox inherent in us trying to reach for the unattainable (i.e., Truth), and what falls out from that are things which we imperfectly label truth and falsehood, even though we're epistemically precluded from ever knowing if our theories actually match up to what is ultimately true about reality. But it's in that quest for impossible knowledge that we can even come to possess whatever flawed approximation of it that is available to us, so I wouldn't redefine "truth" to mean anything less.
 
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gaara4158

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Predictive power is not necessary for something to be useful, nor are outcomes always determinable. You do not seem to grasp what I mean, as you see everything, understandably, via your own philosophy. I point you again to the Host being the Blood and Body of Christ in Catholicism when blessed. Does this produce predictable outcomes or does it stay the same? Is its value diminished or enhanced by the idea to observants, who see it as metaphysical reality? Can you determine any change via Empiricism? Fundamentally, it is seen as Transubstantised reality, but that 'outcome' is hardly a verifiable one, nor need be. This says nothing as to the utility of the concept though.
That's a bad example, since I find the ritual of communion to be tedious, pointless, and a little creepy. Clearly the value of this concept is subjective, and its utility unclear. You need to come up with an example of a concept that makes no predictions but is demonstrably useful if you're going to argue that the utility of a proposition lies somewhere other than its ability to form a predictive model.

If you define Subjectivity as Objective, sure. It is not though. Neurologically speaking, you have no way to know if the space was created or not, when that button was pressed. This opinion essentially invalidates Intersubjectivity as a real thing, so the fevered musings of a schizophrenic are objective to him, and therefore what he must be pragmatic about? It only makes sense by smuggling in external metaphysics, or it is either solipsistic or incoherent. This is just new wine in old wineskins.
I'm not defining subjectivity as objective, I'm naming the only objective facts I, as a subjective, non-omniscient being, am capable of apprehending, and those facts happen to be about my own subjective experience. Whatever my subjective experience is, even if it's inconsistent from moment to moment, is objectively what I am experiencing. How on earth does that invalidate intersubjectivity? At worst it lacks a way to confirm intersubjectivity, but please explain how it dismisses that concept a priori.
As for schizophrenics, guess what? They can't "philosophy" their way out of their disorder any better than we can "philosophy" our way out of solipsism. They are stuck in their delusional reality just as we are stuck in ours. Seriously, if you have a solution to hard solipsism that isn't just an axiomatic assumption, please write the Nobel Prize Committee. If actions based on delusions turn up results that match expectations, how is that delusion not useful? That's no different than a mythology that has demons in everything that can harm you and angels in everything that helps you.

This seems to me to be merely a bunch of statements that you seem to consider axiomatic itself. For instance, why can't a religiously axiomatic belief, such as a Ground of Being or an Unmoved Mover, not connect to a mind-external reality? However, your pragmatic approach presupposes a mind-external reality, without any way of acknowledging the thing. So people who live in glass houses should perhaps not throw stones?
I don't presuppose anything about a mind-external reality, in fact my axioms are all pertaining to my personal, internal reality. I do think I can make strong arguments for its existence, but I don't think that's necessary as no one seriously disputes this. Again, you can take any beliefs you want as axiomatic, but if it pertains at all to a presupposed external reality, ie what it's made of or what exists in it, you're putting the cart before the horse. I can presuppose that I personally am the Ground of Being, axiomatically, and we'd be on equal philosophical footing. Clearly, something's wrong here.

Here is the rub. You would only see the different results when the score sheets are tallied and the game wound up. It doesn't mean it isn't real though as much as it doesn't mean it is. If God exists, then this life is merely an chapter of something else entirely, and my actions would be drastically different if only this exists, or it is a preliminary. I would accept martyrdom if God exists, but would be a fool to do so if He did not.
One wonders, then, how anyone who hasn't died is even aware of this difference that is only apparent to the individual after one's death.

Fair enough. But that renders your reality a solipsistic one only. So therefore your determinations are utterly irrelevant to me, as mine are to yours, if what you say is true. We are therefore both the Fox and Monkey walking through the graveyard in Aesop's fable.
Everyone's reality is a solipsistic one, whether they admit it or not. Your determinations are only irrelevant to me if they fail to demonstrate any predictive utility. If your epistemology doesn't work in this way, I have no idea how you determine what's relevant and I don't care.

Because you don't accept the proposition upon which I base my further propositions, does not mean I am just accepting them as you are, "with a God on top". If we both hold 1 + 1 = 2, but I support Russell's attempted proof thereof, then I am no longer assuming it, as you are, but assuming the validity of the proof. Just because you reject the proof, does not mean I am therefore also assuming 1 and 1 to be 2 in addition. This is fallacious reasoning.
This is a false analogy. Your a priori assumption of the existence of God constitutes an assertion about a mind-external reality which this God must occupy, also called a synthetic proposition. I've already explained why that's problematic. Russel's attempted proof is not an assumption, but a logical proof based on mathematical axioms, which are just a set of rules governing the formal use of language. Taking mathematical axioms to their logical conclusion is not the same as taking a synthetic proposition as axiomatic. It's the exact opposite.
 
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gaara4158

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Yep. That's the "Jewish" flavor of it coming through. (No, really. It is Jewish in flavor.) In the biblical sense, wisdom is given by God to those who, without initial wisdom, ask for it and then proceed to do their best to "do" God's Will. Then, God begins to impart waves or pieces or other fragments of wisdom by which a person can grow in the faith (since it is a process after all, and not some once-and-for-all empirical recognition about "reality"). ;)
Welp. I don't really know where we can go from here, honestly. Now we're talking about wisdom and not so much an epistemology anymore. I don't wholly disagree with the wisdom-gaining process you describe, if you take the God out of it. People who seek wisdom and then proceed to do what they think is right will inevitably gain experience, and with experience comes wisdom.
 
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Silmarien

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Your a priori assumption of the existence of God constitutes an assertion about a mind-external reality which this God must occupy, also called a synthetic proposition.

I can't speak for Quid (though he'll probably agree with me), but this is not necessarily true. It's common to conceptualize God as being an entity that exists out there somewhere, making his home beyond the universe, but this is alien to any number of traditions, including classical and medieval Christian theology. A theist does not need to believe in a mind-external reality at all, and there are religions out there that in some sense actually reject it. In Advaita Vedanta Hinduism, for example, reality is inherently monistic--there is only one thing, and it is consciousness. The light of awareness shining on all of our thoughts and sensations and making them known to us is itself God, and therefore our ultimate goal is to realize our own nature as God. There's no assertion about a mind-external reality there (though it technically isn't denied). And most forms of idealism I'm familiar with really are at best theism-lite, if not the fullblown thing.

Christianity will require additional commitments to the existence of the external world, given the Incarnational aspect of its theology, but you do not need to make that assumption to be a theist. Though as someone predisposed towards the sort of heady theistic reasoning that starts with consciousness and ignores the external world, I think this is actually feature rather than a flaw in Christianity. Spend too much time on the fully otherworldly side of theism and goodbye, reality, so immediately precluding solipsism is a good thing. ##why i am not a hindu
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Welp. I don't really know where we can go from here, honestly. Now we're talking about wisdom and not so much an epistemology anymore. I don't wholly disagree with the wisdom-gaining process you describe, if you take the God out of it. People who seek wisdom and then proceed to do what they think is right will inevitably gain experience, and with experience comes wisdom.

You may be missing some of what I'm trying to say here, gaara. (Or maybe you aren't, we'll see). My point is that in relation to Christian belief and faith, we need to recognize that God has His hand upon one of the handle bars of the epistemic bicycle of belief. Those of us who are Christian each have our hand on the other handlebar, so to speak. Somewhere in there, we learn to balance the bike of faith as we go.

Now, realize that this bicycle doesn't replace the overall epistemology that one might want to use for some other utility in dealing with the rest of the world (hence, I'm saying this as one who is a proponent of BioLogos and the old idea that we have the Bible for one thing and then we have the world for another thing). One epistemic route is not the other, and one or the other can be optional for any one person. Some people choose faith but only do so at the expense of science. Other persons choose one of a myriad of other epistemological and/or metaphysical understandings of the world; some even choose a mode of science as their only epistemic game for which they are willing to play. And some choose the way of faith, on the one side, and one of several other selected frameworks for other practical applications, on the other side.

At the end of the day, if a person wants to find and have faith in Christ, then she will have to want to learn to ride God's bicycle in addition to any other separate epistemological (or pragmatic scientific) project she chooses to implement for herself and follow in her life. A person can work in one epistemic framework and build space-shuttles and perform other technological feats, and if so desired, she can also choose to follow Christ and thereby live a life with a particular kind of social implication that, for the most part, will not necessarily intersect with one's other epistemic choice.

So, be a pragmatist if you want. Just realize that no merely human mode of self-propelled, do-it-yourself epistemology is going to get you to God or get God to do things 'our' way.
 
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apogee

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Your arrogance, is counter productive to the discussion.

I've told you the problem with your point.

I'm guessing @Silmarien has more than adequately cleared up any confusion you might have had about this side point, but let me know if you have any unresolved issues with it. Just as a further clarification the 'Grow Up' wasn't directed at you personally, but more at the reliance on word games and sleight of hand, that this example really seems to typify.

You are entitled to your opinions, you just not entitled to deny that they are opinions - that's kinda silly.
 
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apogee

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Platitudes like this don't do much to inspire me to believe there's anything of substance to discuss on this side-topic.
It's called sarcasm, but I'm damned if I'm going to try and explain that. (hmmm, maybe I should create a new thread)
 
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DogmaHunter

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@apogee very specifically said that the claim "a god exists" would be strong theism, not strong atheism.

haaa, you're right I see. Totally misread that.
My apologies.

The point is that most theists would not be making claims like this either. "I believe that God exists" would be a more appropriate claim

I agree that most theists would say that.
Most theists aren't fundamentalists. My beef is not with them either. My beef is with science deniers who feel like their faith based beliefs trump actual evidence.

it doesn't make sense to say that atheism is the rejection of a theistic claim.

No, that is not correct.
Theism is still a claim. It is still a claim about the existance of supernatural things. Theists, believe said claims. Atheists, do not.

The problem is that you do not want theists to tell you what you believe, and then you turn around and not only tell them what they're believing, but define your own position as a response to this potentially imaginary claim.

It is not "potentially imaginary".

The difference between an atheist and a theist, is that the theist DOES believe the claims of theism while atheists don't.
 
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Moral Orel

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Let's say I was an atheist and for some reason I wanted to kill myself. I told you that I hated my life and wanted to end it. Being an atheist, I know that there is no afterlife and I will simply cease to exist. I also know that the second law of thermodynamics proves that the universe is dying and when that time happens, all humanity will die too. So because all humanity will one day die and cease to exist, the universe will ultimately be no different than if humanity never existed at all. So who cares if my death hurts other people, they will eventually die and all memory of hurt will cease to exist. So atheist, talk me out of suicide. Why should I not kill myself? Explain why life and existence isn't futile? Good luck.
I've been lurking in this thread since it started, and I haven't posted anything of any substance for a while, so I thought I'd post here.

I want to point out a hidden premise you have there that way too many people take for granted. I haven't seen any atheists deny your claim that all humanity will die out eventually, and I think that's because you aren't really going to find an atheist who is concerned about the end of the universe. I've never met one. But just in case you do, let's examine your claim that it is proven the universe will die, and all of humanity with it.

The hidden premise that people take for granted in your post here is that humanity knows all it's ever going to know about the universe. We have a pretty good track record of learning new things and if we can keep ourselves from killing ourselves before the end of the universe who can say what we'll know 5 billion years from now? Maybe we can prevent the heat death of the universe, maybe we can create a new universe, maybe we can travel back in time to when the universe was a mere babe and do that infinitely, maybe there are other universes to travel to and we can just up and move. And how can you argue against my wild speculations? By saying that our current understanding of science and physics says these things are impossible? How unimaginative.

So if there is an atheist who's concerned about humanity ceasing to exist, I'd say do what you can to keep that from happening. If humanity existing for eternity is what you need to value to get yourself out of bed in the morning, start with getting us to continue to exist for the next 100 years and we'll see where we can go from there.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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That's a bad example, since I find the ritual of communion to be tedious, pointless, and a little creepy. Clearly the value of this concept is subjective, and its utility unclear. You need to come up with an example of a concept that makes no predictions but is demonstrably useful if you're going to argue that the utility of a proposition lies somewhere other than its ability to form a predictive model.
You have explicitly defined utility as what has predictive value. As long as that is how you define it, I cannot show utility outside a framework so construed.
What I have said, is that something will not survive, nor be propogated, if it does not have use of some form. Something or someone is getting something out of it. To me, that is utility of the concept. We are therefore at a semantic impasse, I am afraid.
I'm not defining subjectivity as objective, I'm naming the only objective facts I, as a subjective, non-omniscient being, am capable of apprehending, and those facts happen to be about my own subjective experience. Whatever my subjective experience is, even if it's inconsistent from moment to moment, is objectively what I am experiencing. How on earth does that invalidate intersubjectivity? At worst it lacks a way to confirm intersubjectivity, but please explain how it dismisses that concept a priori.
As for schizophrenics, guess what? They can't "philosophy" their way out of their disorder any better than we can "philosophy" our way out of solipsism. They are stuck in their delusional reality just as we are stuck in ours. Seriously, if you have a solution to hard solipsism that isn't just an axiomatic assumption, please write the Nobel Prize Committee. If actions based on delusions turn up results that match expectations, how is that delusion not useful? That's no different than a mythology that has demons in everything that can harm you and angels in everything that helps you.


I don't presuppose anything about a mind-external reality, in fact my axioms are all pertaining to my personal, internal reality. I do think I can make strong arguments for its existence, but I don't think that's necessary as no one seriously disputes this. Again, you can take any beliefs you want as axiomatic, but if it pertains at all to a presupposed external reality, ie what it's made of or what exists in it, you're putting the cart before the horse. I can presuppose that I personally am the Ground of Being, axiomatically, and we'd be on equal philosophical footing. Clearly, something's wrong here.
You say your only objective facts are your subjective experience and then deny you are calling subjectivity the Objective? Ok, then.

Yes, as I said, you either have to be solipsistic, incoherent or presuming metaphysics. Clearly you have opted for solipsism. That's fine. It does mean though, that as you can only perceive intersubjectivity via your own subjectivity, that it is merely an aspect of the latter. Thus your experience is your own, and my experience merely your perception of my experience, and so forth: not real intersubjective relations. For anything that might be a real meeting of minds, of different individuals, a framework from within which they both operate, has to be construed, so that my admittedly subjective data, becomes but a shade of an objective relation which it can tend toward, more or less closely. Intersubjectivity means we perceive another's subjective experience, after all. As you said, you cannot confirm Intersubjectivity, but if our data cannot be anything other than solipsistic personal experience, then in actual fact no perception of another's subjective experience takes place. We have merely our own shadows cast, our own simulation of what we think another is experiencing, and denying that this might in some way be a real reflection, therefore, as 'real' reflections are only our subjective experience itself. It is a bit of a snake biting its own tail, which was why I tried to make a thread specifically to discuss this before (I placed a link earlier), as such may be mired in much involved conversation. To presuppose that your own personal reality is so absolute, has quite a whiff of hubris to me, though.

One wonders, then, how anyone who hasn't died is even aware of this difference that is only apparent to the individual after one's death.
It is apparent now. You just need to be experiencing it. People are just playing the game by different sets of rules, and may only realise this when it is done. As I said, martyrdom makes sense if God is real, but otherwise not, and thus real world application of the metaphysics abound. I used to be an Atheist, before converting. I experienced both sides of the coin, as it were. The difference is stark. As you said, we can only intrinsically know what we are ourselves experiencing, in some sense. You asked what real effects are different by the truth of God, and everything is in fact, different. It might not appear so to someone who does not perceive it though, as a colour-blind person might see two different colours as the same one.

To quote Lewis: "I believe in Christianity as I believe the Sun has risen; not only because I see it, but by it I see everything else."
Everyone's reality is a solipsistic one, whether they admit it or not. Your determinations are only irrelevant to me if they fail to demonstrate any predictive utility. If your epistemology doesn't work in this way, I have no idea how you determine what's relevant and I don't care.
Exactly. You have defined what is useful to you, how you see utility, what is relevant, and all else you dismiss. Everything is determined by the framework from within which you are working.
This was my point on why Science for instance, is not busy with the same things as religion. The latter has a broader perspective that may encompass the former, but if you limit yourself to Science's view of Methodological Naturalism, the rest seems an incomprehensible Other. This does entail an Ontological Naturalistic assumption then.
Without stepping outside the narrow grooves we have rutted our thought into, this becomes harder and harder to realise, and our own determinations are given undeserved paramouncy. A human error, and the reason why CS Lewis suggested you always read two old books for every new one, so that you don't become mired in our own present idiocies, but can have the fresh wind of history expose its strengths and flaws. It is hard to spot error while you are busy making it.

This is a false analogy. Your a priori assumption of the existence of God constitutes an assertion about a mind-external reality which this God must occupy, also called a synthetic proposition. I've already explained why that's problematic. Russel's attempted proof is not an assumption, but a logical proof based on mathematical axioms, which are just a set of rules governing the formal use of language. Taking mathematical axioms to their logical conclusion is not the same as taking a synthetic proposition as axiomatic. It's the exact opposite.
@Silmarien has already nicely adressed this.

I don't believe in a fishbowl universe, with God looking down from another 'space' as it were. I think this hopelessly anthropomorphic and is really not how classically a lot of ideas were framed. Plato's world of the Forms was not, for instance, a 'separate space' in that sense.

Anyway, it was not meant to be an exact analogy, but to give the idea I was talking about. If I base ideas off one concept, it doesn't mean that I am assuming that concept as well as others derived from it, if someone else accepts the latter, but not the former. A set of derivations is not itself an assumption in toto as well, if someone does not accept the original proposition. If I deny the central tenets of Buddhism, it doesn't mean that I think all derived Buddhist theology are thus each individual assumptions. This is utterly silly. A syllogism based on a false premise might be invalid, but its individual consequent terms do not therefore each become premises on their own within it.
 
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Tayla

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One does not have to believe in your religion, to have purpose in life. I know you can't fathom how, but you don't define how others determine purpose in their lives.
Yes, I agree. It is small-minded to think that only Christians have moral sensibility, as if becoming born-again makes you into a super-human having new attributes.
 
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gaara4158

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So, be a pragmatist if you want. Just realize that no merely human mode of self-propelled, do-it-yourself epistemology is going to get you to God or get God to do things 'our' way.
Well, I’m glad we agree on this. I do understand what you mean with the whole separate epistemology for finding faith in God, I just wholly reject the idea of using a different epistemic standard for one specific type of claim. The problem specifically with your Jewish epistemology is that it seems identical to self-deceit. Studies in cognitive dissonance show that when there is a conflict between your beliefs and your behavior, you’re more likely to change your beliefs to justify your behavior rather than the other way around. We really don’t like to admit when we’re acting in what Sartre would call “bad faith.” I hate to say that about something so many generations have taken very seriously and held sacred, but I call it like I see it.
 
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KCfromNC

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I asked if you know if Hilary Putnam is indeed wrong because you don't seem to have given Hilary Putnam much of a reading, if any.

Thanks for sharing.

So, have you read any Peirce or Dewey lately?

I'm still waiting for these questions to go somewhere.
 
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KCfromNC

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Yeah, from the brevity and superficiality of most of your responses here on CF, I suppose a full-blown, bilateral discussion with you is out of the question. And the true reason as to why you're even here, other than to troll Christians, remains beyond me. I've noticed that you're one of the few here with whom I can never have a real discussion.

Good job complaining that I don't post enough content for your standards rather than addressing what I do post. Any wonder why I don't bother writing more?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, I’m glad we agree on this. I do understand what you mean with the whole separate epistemology for finding faith in God, I just wholly reject the idea of using a different epistemic standard for one specific type of claim. The problem specifically with your Jewish epistemology is that it seems identical to self-deceit. Studies in cognitive dissonance show that when there is a conflict between your beliefs and your behavior, you’re more likely to change your beliefs to justify your behavior rather than the other way around. We really don’t like to admit when we’re acting in what Sartre would call “bad faith.” I hate to say that about something so many generations have taken very seriously and held sacred, but I call it like I see it.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be the one to say that religiously oriented Jewish people have always acted ... in Sartrean "bad faith." In fact, to say so is basically a 'crock of bull' AND an implicature that diminishes (and otherwise completely and utterly ignores) both the epistemic and the social indicia within the biblical texts.

Sure, we might say that the Israelites in the O.T. had periodic episodes of acting in "bad faith," but this wouldn't comport to the Sartrean notion in the least. Rather, the prophetic institution within the biblical corpus supplies and implies a completely different complex to explain the Israelites mental "situation," one that is quite different in nature than the one you are construing with casuistry ... from the 'outside' of the Bible.

I guess how one sees the nature of the faith depends on whether your are an 'innie' or an 'outie.' Personally, I try to see things from multiple perspectives, not just one.

Moreover, I for one am not going to accept ANY insipid insinuations that I, myself, only have Christian faith because I have ... Sartrean "bad faith." Yeah, as I said above, I think that kind of evaluation is a crock of bull and if anything, I've studied way too much to be taken in by a bunch of atheistic amateurs who want to take crackshots at my faith.

Notice, too, or maybe you haven't, that my epistemological understanding of things actually makes room and explains at least some of the reasons why people can be atheists, and it doesn't imply that atheists are all at fault for being where they are cognitively with the whole 'god question.' But, apparently, atheists (or agnostics, or skeptics, doubters, or whatever label you want to use) such as yourself are in such a rush to discount everything biblical that some of you guys want to insist that all this Christian belief stuff can just be pawned off to cognitive dissonance and "bad faith." How convenient for you.

 
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KCfromNC

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My interest is in the history and philosophy of science, and yeah, I do know a thing or two about that.

So you say, and yet you also think that modern physics is simply mathematical models rather than based on observation. Something's not adding up.

If you don't want to give the impression that you came out of the 19th century, perhaps you ought to put more consideration into the way you present yourself.

Stop, you'll hurt my feelings.

Jump on someone for pointing out how far modern physics is from a common sense perception of reality

Astute readers will remember I said nothing of the sort.
 
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