Where is the hope in atheism?

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Let's say I was an atheist and for some reason I wanted to kill myself. I told you that I hated my life and wanted to end it. Being an atheist, I know that there is no afterlife and I will simply cease to exist. I also know that the second law of thermodynamics proves that the universe is dying and when that time happens, all humanity will die too. So because all humanity will one day die and cease to exist, the universe will ultimately be no different than if humanity never existed at all. So who cares if my death hurts other people, they will eventually die and all memory of hurt will cease to exist. So atheist, talk me out of suicide. Why should I not kill myself? Explain why life and existence isn't futile? Good luck.

 

[bhsmte]

Let's say I was an atheist and for some reason I wanted to kill myself. I told you that I hated my life and wanted to end it. Being an atheist, I know that there is no afterlife and I will simply cease to exist. I also know that the second law of thermodynamics proves that the universe is dying and when that time happens, all humanity will die too. So because all humanity will one day die and cease to exist, the universe will ultimately be no different than if humanity never existed at all. So who cares if my death hurts other people, they will eventually die and all memory of hurt will cease to exist. So atheist, talk me out of suicide. Why should I not kill myself? Explain why life and existence isn't futile? Good luck.

You back at this again?

One does not have to believe in your religion, to have purpose in life. I know you can't fathom how, but you don't define how others determine purpose in their lives.

 

[bhsmte]

Let's say I was an atheist and for some reason I wanted to kill myself. I told you that I hated my life and wanted to end it. Being an atheist, I know that there is no afterlife and I will simply cease to exist. I also know that the second law of thermodynamics proves that the universe is dying and when that time happens, all humanity will die too. So because all humanity will one day die and cease to exist, the universe will ultimately be no different than if humanity never existed at all. So who cares if my death hurts other people, they will eventually die and all memory of hurt will cease to exist. So atheist, talk me out of suicide. Why should I not kill myself? Explain why life and existence isn't futile? Good luck.

You back at this again?

One does not have to believe in your religion, to have purpose in life. I know you can't fathom how, but you don't define how others determine purpose in their lives.

 

[Silmarien]

You back at this again?

One does not have to believe in your religion, to have purpose in life. I know you can't fathom how, but you don't define how others determine purpose in their lives.

Eh, it's not a bad question. I was a non-theist most of my life and the existential angst really did eat me up alive. Finally converting to theism has gone a long way towards undoing that, and if I were genuinely Christian, it would be even better for me psychologically. (I have a hard time overcoming enough of my naturalistic programming for that, unfortunately.)

Every so often you do see someone drop by and say that they're a materialist who wants to be proven wrong since the worldview is so pointless. What can you say to someone who's glanced at the nihilistic heart of atheism and can't look away again? I don't know. The only way out of that is the leap to faith.

It disturbs me how much hostility there is towards religion in some corners of the atheistic community (not you), because there really is limited recognition that atheism is genuinely harmful to certain personality types. Some of us really are born mystics.

 

[bhsmte]

Eh, it's not a bad question. I was a non-theist most of my life and the existential angst really did eat me up alive. Finally converting to theism has gone a long way towards undoing that, and if I were genuinely Christian, it would be even better for me psychologically. (I have a hard time overcoming enough of my naturalistic programming for that, unfortunately.)

Every so often you do see someone drop by and say that they're a materialist who wants to be proven wrong since the worldview is so pointless. What can you say to someone who's glanced at the nihilistic heart of atheism and can't look away again? I don't know. The only way out of that is the leap to faith.

It disturbs me how much hostility there is towards religion in some corners of the atheistic community (not you), because there really is limited recognition that atheism is genuinely harmful to certain personality types. Some of us really are born mystics.

Some people have hostility towards religion and some people who are religious, have hostility towards non believers.

If adopting theism helped you in your life, that is the right thing for you personally. For those who need to convince themselves non believers live an empty life and can have no purpose in their lives, is bunk. There is quite a bit of that we see on this site and it tells me the person needing to claim those who disagree with them lack meaning in their life, have a certain motivation, causing them to judge others in this fashion.

 

[bhsmte]

Eh, it's not a bad question. I was a non-theist most of my life and the existential angst really did eat me up alive. Finally converting to theism has gone a long way towards undoing that, and if I were genuinely Christian, it would be even better for me psychologically. (I have a hard time overcoming enough of my naturalistic programming for that, unfortunately.)

Every so often you do see someone drop by and say that they're a materialist who wants to be proven wrong since the worldview is so pointless. What can you say to someone who's glanced at the nihilistic heart of atheism and can't look away again? I don't know. The only way out of that is the leap to faith.

It disturbs me how much hostility there is towards religion in some corners of the atheistic community (not you), because there really is limited recognition that atheism is genuinely harmful to certain personality types. Some of us really are born mystics.

Some people have hostility towards religion and some people who are religious, have hostility towards non believers.

If adopting theism helped you in your life, that is the right thing for you personally. For those who need to convince themselves non believers live an empty life and can have no purpose in their lives, is bunk. There is quite a bit of that we see on this site and it tells me the person needing to claim those who disagree with them lack meaning in their life, have a certain motivation, causing them to judge others in this fashion.

 

[bhsmte]

Eh, it's not a bad question. I was a non-theist most of my life and the existential angst really did eat me up alive. Finally converting to theism has gone a long way towards undoing that, and if I were genuinely Christian, it would be even better for me psychologically. (I have a hard time overcoming enough of my naturalistic programming for that, unfortunately.)

Every so often you do see someone drop by and say that they're a materialist who wants to be proven wrong since the worldview is so pointless. What can you say to someone who's glanced at the nihilistic heart of atheism and can't look away again? I don't know. The only way out of that is the leap to faith.

It disturbs me how much hostility there is towards religion in some corners of the atheistic community (not you), because there really is limited recognition that atheism is genuinely harmful to certain personality types. Some of us really are born mystics.

Some people have hostility towards religion and some people who are religious, have hostility towards non believers.

If adopting theism helped you in your life, that is the right thing for you personally. For those who need to convince themselves non believers live an empty life and can have no purpose in their lives, is bunk. There is quite a bit of that we see on this site and it tells me the person needing to claim those who disagree with them lack meaning in their life, have a certain motivation, causing them to judge others in this fashion.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Eh, it's not a bad question. I was a non-theist most of my life and the existential angst really did eat me up alive. Finally converting to theism has gone a long way towards undoing that, and if I were genuinely Christian, it would be even better for me psychologically. (I have a hard time overcoming enough of my naturalistic programming for that, unfortunately.)

Every so often you do see someone drop by and say that they're a materialist who wants to be proven wrong since the worldview is so pointless. What can you say to someone who's glanced at the nihilistic heart of atheism and can't look away again? I don't know. The only way out of that is the leap to faith.

It disturbs me how much hostility there is towards religion in some corners of the atheistic community (not you), because there really is limited recognition that atheism is genuinely harmful to certain personality types. Some of us really are born mystics.

Atheism and nihilism, are two different things.

That you find comfort in a story, doesn't mean the story is true.
And on the flip side, if you find discomfort in reality, that doesn't mean that reality isn't real.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Atheism and nihilism, are two different things.

That you find comfort in a story, doesn't mean the story is true.
And on the flip side, if you find discomfort in reality, that doesn't mean that reality isn't real.

You are correct that atheism is different from nihilism. However, if atheism is true nihilism is the logical product. Unless you believe there is an afterlife apart from gods (supernatural energies and spirit orbs ect..) You are also correct that wanting to believe something to be true does not make it true. The reality is that if there is no afterlife, the reality is that this existence if futile.

But if all we have to look forward to in this life is non-existence, why should I care about anything but myself. After all, this life is the only thing I will ever enjoy so I better make the most of it. However, in my situation, I have decided that I no longer wish to exist. Why shouldn't I end it?

 

[DogmaHunter]

You are correct that atheism is different from nihilism.

If you understand that, then why are you talking about atheists as if they are nihilists by default, in your OP?

However, if atheism is true nihilism is the logical product.

Why would that be?
Several atheists have posted in this thread now and not one agrees to that. What does that tell you?

Unless you believe there is an afterlife apart from gods (supernatural energies and spirit orbs ect..)

Smells like a false dichotomy of "either there is an afterlife, OR nihilism".

You are also correct that wanting to believe something to be true does not make it true. The reality is that if there is no afterlife, the reality is that this existence if futile.

I'm an atheist, and I disagree.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Smells like a false dichotomy of "either there is an afterlife, OR nihilism".

Then prove me wrong. If no afterlife, what other option is there than nihilism? This is a binary question. Either there is an afterlife of there isn't. If there isn't, why not nihilism?

 

[bhsmte]

You are correct that atheism is different from nihilism. However, if atheism is true nihilism is the logical product. Unless you believe there is an afterlife apart from gods (supernatural energies and spirit orbs ect..) You are also correct that wanting to believe something to be true does not make it true. The reality is that if there is no afterlife, the reality is that this existence if futile.

Why does one need to believe there is an afterlife, to find meaning and purpose, to this life?

 

[Silmarien]

Atheism and nihilism, are two different things.

That you find comfort in a story, doesn't mean the story is true.
And on the flip side, if you find discomfort in reality, that doesn't mean that reality isn't real.

This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that atheists need to actually deal with the fact that atheism is harmful to some people. I don't have any militant atheists in my social circle, but I worry for people who do. It can look disturbingly like leaving fundamentalism.

You respond with "atheism and nihilist, are two different things," which is irrelevant to anyone for whom atheism necessarily entails nihilism. Then we move on to crude assumptions about why people might find theism a more appealing framework. I have no idea what story you think I'm finding comfort in, since I mentioned above that I wasn't really Christian. And if I were, it wouldn't be because it's comfortable, but hey, let's caricaturize people we disagree with while complaining about other people caricaturizing us.

And seriously, you've just assumed the burden of proof by equating atheism with reality. Demonstrate for me that there's no transcendent dimension to reality that gives the universe meaning.

 

[keith99]

Let's say I was an atheist and for some reason I wanted to kill myself. I told you that I hated my life and wanted to end it. Being an atheist, I know that there is no afterlife and I will simply cease to exist. I also know that the second law of thermodynamics proves that the universe is dying and when that time happens, all humanity will die too. So because all humanity will one day die and cease to exist, the universe will ultimately be no different than if humanity never existed at all. So who cares if my death hurts other people, they will eventually die and all memory of hurt will cease to exist. So atheist, talk me out of suicide. Why should I not kill myself? Explain why life and existence isn't futile? Good luck.

Why should I as an atheist start with a conclusion that is a perversion of Christianity. It seems that it is not your God you worship but instead the human life force.

I have no need for any of my works to be forever. If I make a child laugh the fact I did so is what matters, not how long it is remembered. I am free to see and rejoice in beauty or goodness anywhere I see it. And to try to improve things when I so desire.

I would not go into a situation where someone wants to die assuming their judgement is wrong. I have found that at times I have a way of asking the right questions and very likely I would soon figure out if their situation is a temporary issue or an ongoing torture. If the later I would not continue to try to bully them into allowing the torture to continue but instead try to aid them in escaping the clutches of those like the OP.

And since I consider the feelings of teh person involved far more important than any dogma, Christian or otherwise I am the one who is far more apt to notice something that might cause a suicidal person to really change their mind as opposed to bullying them into a short delay.

Why is it that some Christians seem to find this life futile without God? And then once the find God it seems they still have a need to look down on others to find meaning in their lives? Could it be that the lack is a lack within those people?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Why should I as an atheist start with a conclusion that is a perversion of Christianity. It seems that it is not your God you worship but instead the human life force.

I have no need for any of my works to be forever. If I make a child laugh the fact I did so is what matters, not how long it is remembered. I am free to see and rejoice in beauty or goodness anywhere I see it. And to try to improve things when I so desire.

I would not go into a situation where someone wants to die assuming their judgement is wrong. I have found that at times I have a way of asking the right questions and very likely I would soon figure out if their situation is a temporary issue or an ongoing torture. If the later I would not continue to try to bully them into allowing the torture to continue but instead try to aid them in escaping the clutches of those like the OP.

And since I consider the feelings of teh person involved far more important than any dogma, Christian or otherwise I am the one who is far more apt to notice something that might cause a suicidal person to really change their mind as opposed to bullying them into a short delay.

Why is it that some Christians seem to find this life futile without God? And then once the find God it seems they still have a need to look down on others to find meaning in their lives? Could it be that the lack is a lack within those people?

So your answer is "determine if the suffering is short or long term and if it's long term tell him to pull the trigger?"

"Why do some Christians think life is Futile without God?" Well...if there is no afterlife tell me why life isn't futile. Explain.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Taking this further, if no god or afterlife, why value the lives of others? Perhaps the rise of mass shootings is a result of an ever rising Godless society.

 

[bhsmte]

This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that atheists need to actually deal with the fact that atheism is harmful to some people. I don't have any militant atheists in my social circle, but I worry for people who do. It can look disturbingly like leaving fundamentalism.

You respond with "atheism and nihilist, are two different things," which is irrelevant to anyone for whom atheism necessarily entails nihilism. Then we move on to crude assumptions about why people might find theism a more appealing framework. I have no idea what story you think I'm finding comfort in, since I mentioned above that I wasn't really Christian. And if I were, it wouldn't be because it's comfortable, but hey, let's caricaturize people we disagree with while complaining about other people caricaturizing us.

And seriously, you've just assumed the burden of proof by equating atheism with reality. Demonstrate for me that there's no transcendent dimension to reality that gives the universe meaning.

I could say, religion is harmful to some people as well.

I happen to have the opinion though, that it isnt the actual religion or lack of religion that is harmful to people, it is the internal motivation one has to use religion, or lack of religion as a weapon. The specific beliefs, or lack of beliefs are the symptom, of a deeper issue which causes harm to some and or those the person abuses.

 

[bhsmte]

This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that atheists need to actually deal with the fact that atheism is harmful to some people. I don't have any militant atheists in my social circle, but I worry for people who do. It can look disturbingly like leaving fundamentalism.

You respond with "atheism and nihilist, are two different things," which is irrelevant to anyone for whom atheism necessarily entails nihilism. Then we move on to crude assumptions about why people might find theism a more appealing framework. I have no idea what story you think I'm finding comfort in, since I mentioned above that I wasn't really Christian. And if I were, it wouldn't be because it's comfortable, but hey, let's caricaturize people we disagree with while complaining about other people caricaturizing us.

And seriously, you've just assumed the burden of proof by equating atheism with reality. Demonstrate for me that there's no transcendent dimension to reality that gives the universe meaning.

I could say, religion is harmful to some people as well.

I happen to have the opinion though, that it isnt the actual religion or lack of religion that is harmful to people, it is the internal motivation one has to use religion, or lack of religion as a weapon. The specific beliefs, or lack of beliefs are the symptom, of a deeper issue which causes harm to some and or those the person abuses.

So your answer is "determine if the suffering is short or long term and if it's long term tell him to pull the trigger?"

"Why do some Christians think life is Futile without God?" Well...if there is no afterlife tell me why life isn't futile. Explain.

To me at least, if this life is all we have, living it in a way i will be proud, becomes even more important.

 

[Silmarien]

Why is it that some Christians seem to find this life futile without God? And then once the find God it seems they still have a need to look down on others to find meaning in their lives? Could it be that the lack is a lack within those people?

I think it's a personality thing. If we're going by Myers-Briggs, NFs in particular (especially the introverted ones) lean towards mysticism, and there's really not much of a place for us in modern secular society. Even our atheists tend towards non-naturalism and a pseudo-religious understanding of the world, but that's not an approach that's well represented these days.

I do not like the implication that anyone who does not fit in with the popular atheistic model of what a meaningful life should look like is in some way lacking, though. That's pretty dystopic and totalitarian. (I don't think you're quite saying that, but other people do.)

I could say, religion is harmful to some people as well.

I happen to have the opinion though, that it isnt the actual religion or lack of religion that is harmful to people, it is the internal motivation one has to use religion, or lack of religion as a weapon. The specific beliefs, or lack of beliefs are the symptom, of a deeper issue which causes harm to some and or those the person abuses.

Well, I would disagree for the reason I pointed out to Keith. Lack of religion can be harmful to anyone of a mystical inclination, because secular society just doesn't have the resources to deal with that sort of need. You're better off within the refuge of a religious tradition than off in the wilds of Spirituality Without Religion where mental health issues lurk.

There are some manifestations of religion that are absolutely harmful, I would agree, but it's hard to see how something like Unitarian Universalism could cause anyone problems, unless perhaps you've got scrupulosity. (Even there, UU would be a weird one to set that off.)

I don't really care if people aren't religious, though. What bothers me is the idea that the world would be a better place if religion were wiped out, and everyone who doesn't think that way is an indoctrinated fundamentalist who simply doesn't see how beautiful a world without God really is. Which doesn't apply to you but certainly is the case for some others around here.

 

[gaara4158]

Taking this further, if no god or afterlife, why value the lives of others? Perhaps the rise of mass shootings is a result of an ever rising Godless society.

Putting aside our natural, empathy-based reasons to value the lives of others, there are very compelling pragmatic reasons to value one another in the absence of a god or afterlife. Humans are a socially co-dependent species, meaning most people cannot survive without help from others to meet their basic needs. Even those who manage to live alone do so using knowledge and skills they likely learned from someone else. To put it simply, people are resources. If you go around killing people, you'll almost certainly be stopped and prosecuted. If somehow you're not stopped, you're only depriving yourself of whatever resources they may have had to offer. There are very real social and psychological consequences to killing other people. I actually don't know what a god and an afterlife would add to this.

 

[bhsmte]

I think it's a personality thing. If we're going by Myers-Briggs, NFs in particular (especially the introverted ones) lean towards mysticism, and there's really not much of a place for us in modern secular society. Even our atheists tend towards non-naturalism and a pseudo-religious understanding of the world, but that's not an approach that's well represented these days.

I do not like the implication that anyone who does not fit in with the popular atheistic model of what a meaningful life should look like is in some way lacking, though. That's pretty dystopic and totalitarian. (I don't think you're quite saying that, but other people do.)



Well, I would disagree for the reason I pointed out to Keith. Lack of religion can be harmful to anyone of a mystical inclination, because secular society just doesn't have the resources to deal with that sort of need. You're better off within the refuge of a religious tradition than off in the wilds of Spirituality Without Religion where mental health issues lurk.

There are some manifestations of religion that are absolutely harmful, I would agree, but it's hard to see how something like Unitarian Universalism could cause anyone problems, unless perhaps you've got scrupulosity. (Even there, UU would be a weird one to set that off.)

I don't really care if people aren't religious, though. What bothers me is the idea that the world would be a better place if religion were wiped out, and everyone who doesn't think that way is an indoctrinated fundamentalist who simply doesn't see how beautiful a world without God really is. Which doesn't apply to you but certainly is the case for some others around here.

Anyone who claims religion should be wiped out and or everyone should believe, for the world to be a better place, is ignorant to how people have unique needs.

People can be good as a believer and they can be good as a non believer. Both groups, can also have subsets, that are harmful to themselves and those around them.