Where is the hope in atheism?

[bhsmte]

I think it's a personality thing. If we're going by Myers-Briggs, NFs in particular (especially the introverted ones) lean towards mysticism, and there's really not much of a place for us in modern secular society. Even our atheists tend towards non-naturalism and a pseudo-religious understanding of the world, but that's not an approach that's well represented these days.

I do not like the implication that anyone who does not fit in with the popular atheistic model of what a meaningful life should look like is in some way lacking, though. That's pretty dystopic and totalitarian. (I don't think you're quite saying that, but other people do.)



Well, I would disagree for the reason I pointed out to Keith. Lack of religion can be harmful to anyone of a mystical inclination, because secular society just doesn't have the resources to deal with that sort of need. You're better off within the refuge of a religious tradition than off in the wilds of Spirituality Without Religion where mental health issues lurk.

There are some manifestations of religion that are absolutely harmful, I would agree, but it's hard to see how something like Unitarian Universalism could cause anyone problems, unless perhaps you've got scrupulosity. (Even there, UU would be a weird one to set that off.)

I don't really care if people aren't religious, though. What bothers me is the idea that the world would be a better place if religion were wiped out, and everyone who doesn't think that way is an indoctrinated fundamentalist who simply doesn't see how beautiful a world without God really is. Which doesn't apply to you but certainly is the case for some others around here.

Anyone who claims religion should be wiped out and or everyone should believe, for the world to be a better place, is ignorant to how people have unique needs.

People can be good as a believer and they can be good as a non believer. Both groups, can also have subsets, that are harmful to themselves and those around them.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I actually don't know what a god and an afterlife would add to this.

If there is no afterlife, the best we have to hope for is to live our lives as best we can before we fade off into non-existence. Since mankind is destined to die, why should we care about anything if eventually humanity will cease to exist?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I actually don't know what a god and an afterlife would add to this.

If there is no afterlife, the best we have to hope for is to live our lives as best we can before we fade off into non-existence

 

[bhsmte]

If there is no afterlife, the best we have to hope for is to live our lives as best we can before we fade off into non-existence. Since mankind is destined to die, why should we care about anything if eventually humanity will cease to exist?

This has been explained and answered. The fact you cant grasp how someone could be different than you, is where the issue is.

 

[gaara4158]

If there is no afterlife, the best we have to hope for is to live our lives as best we can before we fade off into non-existence. Since mankind is destined to die, why should we care about anything if eventually humanity will cease to exist?

I don't understand this reasoning. Life's not eternal, therefore it doesn't matter? The very fact that life is finite is what makes your choices so important and the consequences so significant. You only get one shot! If anything, an afterlife takes away from that.

 

[bhsmte]

If there is no afterlife, the best we have to hope for is to live our lives as best we can before we fade off into non-existence. Since mankind is destined to die, why should we care about anything if eventually humanity will cease to exist?

This has been explained and answered. The fact you cant grasp how someone could be different than you, is where the issue is.

 

[bhsmte]

I don't understand this reasoning. Life's not eternal, therefore it doesn't matter? The very fact that life is finite is what makes your choices so important and the consequences so significant. You only get one shot! If anything, an afterlife takes away from that.

Doesnt seem that difficult to comprehend, does it. I think what have here, is someone who really needs to convince themselves, non believers can have no value to their life, which artificially creates comfort for him, since he is a believer.

 

[gaara4158]

Doesnt seem that difficult to comprehend, does it. I think what have here, is someone who really needs to convince themselves, non believers can have no value to their life, which artificially creates comfort for him, since he is a believer.

Yeah, there's a wealth of ancient and modern literature exploring the pros and cons of immortality (Gilgamesh and Full Metal Alchemist spring to mind), and it turns out immortality has some very serious downsides as well. It's hard to fathom why he would argue so sharply for a meaningless existence under atheism if a) he's secure in his faith and b) he knows what he's talking about. I doubt either of those is the case.

 

[bhsmte]

Yeah, there's a wealth of ancient and modern literature exploring the pros and cons of immortality (Gilgamesh and Full Metal Alchemist spring to mind), and it turns out immortality has some very serious downsides as well. It's hard to fathom why he would argue so sharply for a meaningless existence under atheism if a) he's secure in his faith and b) he knows what he's talking about. I doubt either of those is the case.

IMO, you nailed it with the security question.

 

[keith99]

So your answer is "determine if the suffering is short or long term and if it's long term tell him to pull the trigger?"

"Why do some Christians think life is Futile without God?" Well...if there is no afterlife tell me why life isn't futile. Explain.

I had 2 dogs. Both have passed. Their lives were far from futile and Christianity does NOT teach that they will be reborn.

If lasting forever is the measure than no physical improvements in this world matter. Yet I prefer waking in a comfortable bed and when I rise to relieve myself not having to go outside and being able to clean up afterwards with no bother.

IF there is a God in the CHristian sense and everything is going to work out how He always has wanted it to work out than everything man does is futile!

And for that matter who cares is life in a world where there is no God is futile or not? The issue with God is NOT if life is futile otherwise it is if He exists. One who harps of a futility otherwise is clearly one who has doubts as to the existence of God.

 

[Silmarien]

I don't understand this reasoning. Life's not eternal, therefore it doesn't matter? The very fact that life is finite is what makes your choices so important and the consequences so significant. You only get one shot! If anything, an afterlife takes away from that.

Is this really true, though? I personally find Christian immortality both hard to conceptualize and genuinely intimidating--in line with my Eastern leanings, I have a much easier time with the idea that individual identity doesn't survive death and all that's left is the world-soul, in a manner of speaking.

But even as someone who doesn't necessarily believe in a traditional afterlife, I have to ask... we have one shot to do what, precisely? Buy into the illusion that any of our choices matter when everything will get wiped away sooner or later anyway? Even from my preferred panentheistic perspective, I have to wonder what the point of the whole thing is. The finite nature of life makes all of our choices and their consequences utterly insignificant, as far as I can tell.

To me, it's the possibility of immortality in some shape or form that changes things. If you're going to be stuck with yourself eternally, then you had better make sure that you're a person you can stand to be around. Immortality is as much a threat as a promise. From a Nietzschean perspective, are you so in love with life that you would be willing to live it over and over again eternally? If not, then you're doing something wrong.

Yeah, there's a wealth of ancient and modern literature exploring the pros and cons of immortality (Gilgamesh and Full Metal Alchemist spring to mind), and it turns out immortality has some very serious downsides as well. It's hard to fathom why he would argue so sharply for a meaningless existence under atheism if a) he's secure in his faith and b) he knows what he's talking about. I doubt either of those is the case.

I need to finish FMA one of these days. But I think it's worth pointing out that those downsides really apply to to immortality within the context of an imperfect world. A transhuman dystopia where everyone lives forever is nightmare feul for me too, but traditional Christian theology involves a transfiguration both of the world and the physical body, so the rulebook is our the window. We're not dealing with reality as we know it.

Which makes it impossible to really conceptualize, but that's beside the point.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Is this really true, though? I personally find Christian immortality both hard to conceptualize and genuinely intimidating--in line with my Eastern leanings, I have a much easier time with the idea that individual identity doesn't survive death and all that's left is the world-soul, in a manner of speaking.

But even as someone who doesn't necessarily believe in a traditional afterlife, I have to ask... we have one shot to do what, precisely? Buy into the illusion that any of our choices matter when everything will get wiped away sooner or later anyway? Even from my preferred panentheistic perspective, I have to wonder what the point of the whole thing is. The finite nature of life makes all of our choices and their consequences utterly insignificant, as far as I can tell.

To me, it's the possibility of immortality in some shape or form that changes things. If you're going to be stuck with yourself eternally, then you had better make sure that you're a person you can stand to be around. Immortality is as much a threat as a promise. From a Nietzschean perspective, are you so in love with life that you would be willing to live it over and over again eternally? If not, then you're doing something wrong.

It's really terrible that I had to take that Virtue Ethics and Film class. Cuz' now, every time someone mentions Nietzsche's idea of the Eternal Return, I can't get Bill Murray's movie, "Groundhog Day" out of my mind ... Oh NO! There it goes again! ...thanks a lot, Sil!

 

[Silmarien]

It's really terrible that I had to take that Virtue Ethics and Film class. Cuz' now, every time someone mentions Nietzsche's idea of the Eternal Return, I can't get Bill Murray's movie, "Groundhog Day" out of my mind ... Oh NO! There it goes again! ...thanks a lot, Sil!

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

That's what we watched for my old Nietzsche class, if I recall correctly.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

That's what we watched for my old Nietzsche class, if I recall correctly.

I actually haven't seen that one yet. But now that you've mentioned it, I guess I'll have to rent it just to imbibe the philosophy in it.

 

[Silmarien]

And for that matter who cares is life in a world where there is no God is futile or not? The issue with God is NOT if life is futile otherwise it is if He exists. One who harps of a futility otherwise is clearly one who has doubts as to the existence of God.

Eh, I have no desire to live in a world where existence is futile. So either I arbitrarily operate under the assumption that it is and choose not to live, or I side with those who say that there's more to reality than mindless material forces, and operate under that assumption instead. Only one of these two options doesn't end in flames.

If the question is in any sense unknowable, and all questions about reality ultimately are, then there's much more that matters than whether or not we can demonstrate that God exists.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I had 2 dogs. Both have passed. Their lives were far from futile and Christianity does NOT teach that they will be reborn.

If there is no afterlife, when you die all of your memories of your dogs cease to exist. So, why then are your dogs lives not futile?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The very fact that life is finite is what makes your choices so important and the consequences so significant. You only get one shot! If anything, an afterlife takes away from that.

Significant for who? Significant for what? We get one shot to do what exactly?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Yeah, there's a wealth of ancient and modern literature exploring the pros and cons of immortality (Gilgamesh and Full Metal Alchemist spring to mind), and it turns out immortality has some very serious downsides as well. It's hard to fathom why he would argue so sharply for a meaningless existence under atheism if a) he's secure in his faith and b) he knows what he's talking about. I doubt either of those is the case.

Well...then prove me wrong. If there is no afterlife and we cease to exist after death, why then is life not futile?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

But even as someone who doesn't necessarily believe in a traditional afterlife, I have to ask... we have one shot to do what, precisely? Buy into the illusion that any of our choices matter when everything will get wiped away sooner or later anyway? Even from my preferred panentheistic perspective, I have to wonder what the point of the whole thing is. The finite nature of life makes all of our choices and their consequences utterly insignificant, as far as I can tell.

Finally, someone who gets it!

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Let's say I was an atheist and for some reason I wanted to kill myself. I told you that I hated my life and wanted to end it. Being an atheist, I know that there is no afterlife and I will simply cease to exist. I also know that the second law of thermodynamics proves that the universe is dying and when that time happens, all humanity will die too. So because all humanity will one day die and cease to exist, the universe will ultimately be no different than if humanity never existed at all. So who cares if my death hurts other people, they will eventually die and all memory of hurt will cease to exist. So atheist, talk me out of suicide. Why should I not kill myself? Explain why life and existence isn't futile? Good luck.

You are thoroughly confused.

Firstly, atheism isn't a worldview, religion or a philosophy. One can be atheist and have any number of views on life and meaning. That's a basic category error.

Secondly, you, not me, are the one who purports to derive their life's meaning from a 'god'. Therefor it is you, not me, whose life is without meaning if this 'god' doesn't exist. That's your problem, not mine.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

If there is no afterlife, the best we have to hope for is to live our lives as best we can before we fade off into non-existence. Since mankind is destined to die, why should we care about anything if eventually humanity will cease to exist?

Again, your questions presuppose that everyone else subscribes to your bizarre brand of theistic nihilism - in which everything is worthless unless it lasts an indestructible eternity. Your existential horror at the concept of temporality is your own problem.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Then prove me wrong.

I'm an atheist, don't believe in an afterlife and not a nihilist.

If no afterlife, what other option is there than nihilism?

Nihilism isn't about afterlives or the lack thereof.

This is a binary question

It's an invalid question.

Either there is an afterlife of there isn't. If there isn't, why not nihilism?

if there isn't, why would nihilism be the only possible outcome?
It's your claim....