• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..?

reddogs

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2006
9,273
520
✟570,090.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I never thought about the harm caused to those who sold the 'spirits' as well as those that imbibed, the wrecks at sea where the Captain was 'under the influence' or the lawmakers who have to pass laws to control the damage after the deaths occur from what they allowed. Here are some counsels from Ellen White that seems years ahead of her time...

"...In every phase of the liquor-selling business, there is dishonesty and violence. The houses of liquor-dealers are built with the wages of unrighteousness, and upheld by violence and oppression. Those who deal in liquor, and those who sustain the traffic, are working in co-partnership with Satan. Through this business they are doing a greater work to perpetuate human woe than are men through any other business in the world. Christians cannot use intoxicating liquors, nor connect themselves in the least degree with any business that leads to the degradation and downfall of humanity. {PH132 1.2}


The rum-seller takes the same position as did Cain, and says, "Am I my brother's keeper?" And God says to him, as He said to Cain, "The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto Me from the ground." Gen. 4:9, 10. Liquor-dealers will be held accountable for the wretchedness and misery brought into the homes of those who are weak in moral power, and who fall through temptation to drink. They will be charged with the misery, the suffering, the hopelessness brought into the world through the liquor traffic. They will have to answer for the want and woe of the mothers and children who have suffered for food, and clothing, and shelter, who have buried all hope and joy. He who has a care for the sparrow, and notes its fall to the ground, who "clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven," will not pass by those who have been formed in his own image, purchased with his own blood, and pay no heed to their suffering cries. God marks this wickedness that perpetuates misery and crime. He charges it all up to those whose influence helps to open the door of temptation to the soul. {PH132 2.1}


There are men who have accepted high positions of trust, who have placed themselves under solemn vows to work for the good of the people, but who are untrue to these vows, who are not acting the part of their brother's keeper. They are violating the principles of God's law, and failing to love their neighbour as themselves. Law-makers are permitting breweries to be
planted all over the land, thus defiling the earth, and supplying to public houses that which they know to be a deadly evil. Drinking houses are scattered all over the cities and towns, inviting the traveller to stop and water his horses at the troughs, which are so convenient, and also to come in, and spend his money for a glass of some intoxicating drink. The water in the trough is a blessing to the thirsty horses, but what a curse is the liquor to the man who enters and drinks. The traveller enters the public house with his reason, with ability to walk upright; but look at him as he leaves. The lustre is gone from his eye. The power to walk upright is gone; he reels to and fro like a ship at sea. His reasoning power is paralysed; the image of God is destroyed. The poisonous, maddening draught has left a brand upon him so evil that nature rebels, and refuses to own him. He is the slave of depraved appetite, and instead of coming to his help, to break every yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, his brethren bind him the tighter in his chains. They rob his wife and children of his money, and take away from them a kind and sensible husband and father, by dealing out to him a potion that makes him a madman. He is in slavery, body and soul, and he cannot distinguish between right and wrong. The liquor-dealer has put the bottle to his neighbour's lips, and under its influence he is full of cruelty and murder, and in his madness actually commits murder. {PH132 2.2}


He is brought before an earthly tribunal, and those who legalized the traffic are forced to deal with the results of their own work. They authorised by law the giving to this man of a draught that would turn him
from a sane man into a madman, and now it is necessary for them to send him to prison and to the gallows for his crime. His wife and children are left in destitution and poverty, to become the charge of the community in which they live. Soul and body the man is lost, cut off from earth, and with no title to heaven. {PH132 3.1}


But there is a higher tribunal than that of earth, and in that tribunal the effect is traced to the cause, and the man who put the bottle to his neighbour's lips is charged with the sins of him who committed murder through the influence of the draught that robbed him of his reason. {PH132 4.1}


And are not the rulers of the land largely responsible for the aggravated crimes, the current of deadly evil, that is the result of this liquor traffic? Is it not their duty and in their power to remove this evil?--Yes, it is; and unless they do it, the blood of souls will be found upon their garments. {PH132 4.2}


When a ship is wrecked in sight of the shore, and the people look on, powerless to save, they are shocked and pained beyond measure. They talk of every possible means whereby to save those who are perishing; and even after the ship has gone down, and the lives of all are lost, they still try to think of some means that might have been successful in saving the perishing. But there is a deadly evil in our very land, which is sanctioned by law. Day after day, month after month, year after year, Satan's death-traps are set in our communities, at our doors, at the street corners, everywhere that it is possible to catch souls, that their moral power may be destroyed, and the image of God obliterated, and that they may be sunken in degradation far below the level of the brute. Souls are imperilled and perishing, and where is the active energy, the determined effort on the part of Christians to raise a warning signal, to enlighten their fellow-men, to save their perishing brothers? We are not talking of methods to save those who are dead and lost, but we desire to move upon those who are not yet beyond the reach of sympathy and help. We would present to these souls, who are guilty and polluted, the truth that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin. {PH132 4.3}


Shall souls always have to struggle for the victory, with the dens of temptation open before their very faces? Shall Satan always find agents to tempt those who are weak in moral power? Drawn into these dens of evil, shall he who has resolved to quit drink, be led to seize the glass again, and in the first sip of the intoxicant, put to his lips by the liquor-dealer, find every good resolution overpowered and gone? One taste of the maddening draught, and all thought of the suffering, heart-crushed wife has vanished. The debauched father cares no more that his children are hungry and naked. The law, by legalizing the liquor traffic, gives its sanction to the downfall of the soul, and refuses to stop the traffic that floods the land with evil. Let law-makers consider whether or not all this imperilling of human life, of physical power and mental vigour, is unavoidable. {PH132 5.1}


How many frightful accidents occur through the influence of drink. Some one at an important post fails to give the right signal, or sends an incorrect message, and on come the trains. There is a collision, and hundreds of lives are lost. When the matter is investigated, it is found that the man at the post was drunk.

A steamer at sea meets with disaster, and when the matter is traced to its source, it is found that the engineer was drunk, or that the captain had taken too much liquor at supper. What is the portion of this terrible intoxicant that any man in responsible position can afford to take, and be safe with the lives of human beings? He can be safe only as he totally abstains from drink. He should not have his mind confused with drink. No intoxicant should pass the lips; then if disaster comes, men in responsible places can do their best, and meet their record with satisfaction, whatever may be the issue. {PH132 5.2}
 

SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
9,244
3,050
Kenmore, WA
✟303,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Is the liquor seller really responsible for the harm that results from his customers drinking too much? Is the grocer responsible for the damage to his customers' health from eating too much? Is the auto dealer responsible for the mayhem on the roads that results from his customers driving too fast?
 
Upvote 0

NightEternal

Evangelical SDA
Apr 18, 2007
5,639
127
Toronto, Ontario
✟6,559.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Yeah right.

Damned to Hell be him who partakes of that glass of wine while unborn children are being murdered in some of our our Adventist hospitals. Talk about misplaced outrage.

We got our priorities reeeeeeal straight, don't we?



 
Upvote 0

reddogs

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2006
9,273
520
✟570,090.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

The thread was more on the "harm caused to those who sold the 'spirits' ", not on those who choose to stir not shake their martini's.....
 
Upvote 0

Jimlarmore

Senior Veteran
Oct 25, 2006
2,572
51
75
✟25,490.00
Faith
SDA

Alcohol is a drug, plain and simple. It fits all of the criteria of a drug. So you need to ask this question. Is the drug dealer responsible for the ruined lives of those he sells his drugs too?

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
Upvote 0

Jimlarmore

Senior Veteran
Oct 25, 2006
2,572
51
75
✟25,490.00
Faith
SDA
Yeah right.

Damned to Hell be him who partakes of that glass of wine while unborn children are being murdered in some of our our Adventist hospitals. Talk about misplaced outrage.

We got our priorities reeeeeeal straight, don't we?




I cannot nor will I ever condone why abortions are allowed to go on in our hospitals. This is a insanity in my opinion. However, that does not make the stand the church has taken against alcohol wrong. Priorities misplaced? Absolutely, wrong message on alcohol? Absoutely not!!!

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
Upvote 0

SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
9,244
3,050
Kenmore, WA
✟303,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Jimlarmore said:
Alcohol is a drug, plain and simple.

It can certainly be used as one. A butcher knife can easily be used as weapon, but it is not a weapon in itself. It is the way that it is used that makes it that way.

"The dipsomaniac and the abstainer are not only both mistaken, but they both make the same mistake. They both regard wine as a drug and not as a drink."
G.K. Chesterton
 
Upvote 0

djconklin

Moderate SDA
Sep 8, 2003
4,019
26
75
Visit site
✟26,806.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
The prinicple was answered back in 1873 by a non-SDA:

Dr. Robert Boyd, The World's Hope, or Rock of Ages (1873, 1880 printing): 674

"Whenever I hear professing Christians beginning to inquire what harm there can be in the social dance, or what harm there can be in the theatre, or in games of chance, I always know that it is a sign that the love of Christ is declining in their hearts, if indeed it ever existed at all. It is an attempt to get something to satisfy conscience, and is virtually declaring that the bread of life with which Christ feeds the soul does not sat-

675

isfy, and that therefore they are anxious to find some excuse forgetting back to the service of Satan. And, instead of arguing the rightness or the wrongness of those things of which no truly spiritual mind has any doubt, I would say, Take heed, my brother, to your own heart. Your Lord has warned you, not only against going back, but against even looking back; and you are instructed not to seem to come short. You are to shun the very appearance of evil, and the very fact that you are beginning to glance with approval at the abounding iniquity of the world, shows that your love to the Redeemer is "waxing cold." Take that cold heart again to Jesus; and rest not satisfied till it is brimming over with his love, "who was holy, harmless, and separated from sinners."

When Christ was on the cross suffering unimaginable agony that certainly would have been the time to take a drink--and yet He set an example for us by refusing.
 
Upvote 0

Windmill

Legend
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2004
13,686
486
35
New Zealand
Visit site
✟83,797.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
In Relationship
Liqour, while I don't think is technically a sin, is something I think everyone should try and abstain from.

Its is a poison, but not only this, a mind altering one. Having alcohol in a society leads to people getting drunk, it is only inevitable, and that leads to crimes, abuse, deaths, injuries, fornification and fights.

Its just not good news. Abstain from it and lead a good example to others!
 
Upvote 0

JonMiller

Senior Veteran
Jun 6, 2007
7,165
195
✟30,831.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

I could agree with this, although I currently do drink occasionally.

JM
 
Upvote 0

reddogs

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2006
9,273
520
✟570,090.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Like marijuanna, some people claim it does them good and others they know it harms them yet they continue smoking......

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
 
Upvote 0

ricker

Regular Member
Feb 25, 2007
2,430
71
65
Minnesota
✟27,344.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Alcohol is a drug, plain and simple. It fits all of the criteria of a drug. So you need to ask this question. Is the drug dealer responsible for the ruined lives of those he sells his drugs too?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

One of my teenage sons just got back less than two weeks ago from being "locked up" for over a year in drug and alcohol treatment centers, etc. Friday night he got drunk and rolled his car, totaling it, and got a DWI. I don't condemn those selling or using alcohol occasionally, But for goodness sake, think twice about starting drinking if you don't now. You're playing with fire.
God bless! Ricker
 
Upvote 0

thecountrydoc

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2006
2,745
58
85
San Marcos, CA
✟70,664.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hello to all who have posted to, or read, this thread.

I was ask on another site if drinking was a sin. The following is my response to that question.
_________________________________________________________________
IS DRINKING A SIN?

I will first make two comments concerning the question; First, everytime someone consumed alcohol in the Bible there were most unfortunate problems that followed. Second, If God used a different standard for different people then Satan's accusations that God is unfair would be true.
_________________________________________________________________
BOY, O' BOY, O' BOY,

This thread has covered quite a spread of ideas, opinions, statements, medical advice, bibical text and thier interpititations, indications of studying bibical history and even bibical language translation! It has even been suggested that what may be wrong for some may be OK for others! WOW!!!

At the risk of offending anyone who has posted here I must say that "there is somthing wrong with this picture"!!

Before addressing the topic at hand let me say that I do not intend to address each thought, belife, interpitation or pratice mentioned nor will I give additional bibical text. Rather I'm going to share some ways that each can evaluate there own position and arrive at thier own conclusions.

Too often, when there seems to be instruction on any topic that is not spelled out step by step, Christians forget the statment given, "study to show thyself approved". To study for ourselves means not only to read the Word but to use a very important God given ability to help us apply the instruction given. It is the ability to use logic. When study of the Word is used with logic, reason, and some current facts, each should be able to draw correct conclusions about any subject not just the topic of this thread.

In understanding the instruction given on this topic, drinking, we first need to use some current facts followed by some bibical "facts". With said facts in hand we can use logic about God's fairness, truthfulness, and the principals that should be used when applying all of the instructions given on any subject or topic. I might also suggest that the further study of bibical history as well as secular history may prove to be of futher help in understang actual practices and langueges as well as the total concepts and meanings of each text given previously.

Current secular/medical facts:

Alcohol impairs brain function. Alcohol impairs our ability to use logic and reason. According to current studies the consumption of even a single alcoholic beverage is enough to produce measureable brain impairment. More people are killed on our highways due to alcohol related accidents than all other traffic accidents combined. The number of homicides commited while under the influence are more than double those commited when there is no alcohol involved. The vast majority of all child abuse and spouseal abuse involves alcohol. "No", not one, single addiction can be started without a "first time" action.(ie. taking a first drink) A book could be written about the social, moral, and medical reasons for not using alcoholic beverages of any kind therefore I will stop here.

Bibical and Christian facts and principals:

God gave man a brain. There are two main functions intended for the use of that brain. The first use of our brain, the mind, is to communicate with our creator. ANY impairment of our brain power impairs our ability to comunicate with our Creator.

With our brain man was given the the power of choice. To make "good" choices we need to use logic and reason which is what puts..." man above the animals" and why God gave man dominion over all of His creation. God has never given anything that of itself is addicting to His children. He has never blessed anything that is self addictive. In todays Christian world any addiction is considered a sin. Anything {action} that may produce sinful behavior is not of God but is of Satan. God does not cause or condone sin. Any addictive behavior will produce sin. By studying the true charector and nature of God we, as Christians, can establish that God is fair and does not use different standards for different people. He is truthful. Close study does not find contardiction in all the Bible. What God gives He never takes away. His Word is truth.

The knowledge of the above "facts" and principals, coupled with a complete faith/dependancy in/on God the Father, gave Jesus Christ the ability to live a perfect life while here on earth. His every thought, action, statement or question was based in logic and reason.

So I now ask each poster to this thread as Christians to follow the example of Jesus Christ and draw your own conclusions and answers to the question. IS DRINKING A SIN?
_________________________________________________________________

Respectfuly, your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
Upvote 0