Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Spiritual Jew]

Keras, those who attempt to refute the pre-Trib rapture always cite inapplicable verses.

That's an interesting thing for someone to say who tries to say that Revelation 4:1 is a description of the rapture even tough it only mentions John alone there. That's quite a stretch to relate that verse to a pre-trib rapture. Do you not have any clear, straightforward scripture to support your doctrine? It doesn't look like it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The reason you can't refute the pre-Trib rapture is because Rev 4:1 is factually a future event. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation, because it was shown to him by one angel who was sent to John, while John was on Patmos.

We don't even know if it's talking about John being caught up bodily there. It's likely just speaking figuratively of him being given a vision of heaven and not talking about him literally going to heaven. Look at what Paul wrote here:

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth), such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth). 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

You can see here that being caught up to heaven does not have to mean someone is caught up there bodily, so there is no basis for associating Revelation 4:1 with the rapture. That verse involves John alone, not the entire church.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We who refute the rapture to heaven, can show how wrong the pre-trib believers are until doomsday, but they will never understand, because they can't. they are locked into their delusion, as verses like Isaiah 29:9-12, Jeremiah 4:22, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, confirm.

Those passages refer to unsaved people. I'm not going to join you in condemning believers to hell just because they hold to the wrong end times doctrine.

 

[keras]

Those passages refer to unsaved people. I'm not going to join you in condemning believers to hell just because they hold to the wrong end times doctrine.

Are you as bad as J.B. who sees words that are not there?
I never condemned anyone to hell.
Rapture believers are Jesus believers, so their Eternal life is assured. John 3:16

But all who have false beliefs, the rapture, preterist, AMill, or just the careless attitude of 'I don't care about the Prophetic Word', may be shocked and lose their faith when disaster strikes.
However, I thank you for your posts 100, 101, 102, above. I have battled the false rapture to heaven doctrine, for years with little if any support.

The reality is that the best we can do for people who have been trapped into believing they will be raptured, is to show what God actually does plan for His faithful peoples. Ezekiel 34:11-16 tells it the best. Romans 9:24-26 confirms it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you as bad as J.B. who sees words that are not there?
I never condemned anyone to hell.
Rapture believers are Jesus believers, so their Eternal life is assured. John 3:16

Why do I have to spell this out to you? Did you actually read the passages you referenced? Take this one, for example...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You applied this passage to pre-tribs and this talks about those who are damned for not believing the truth. Do you think those who are "damned" are not condemned to hell? If you believe they are, then why would you relate this passage directly to someone who believes in a pre-trib rapture?

But all who have false beliefs, the rapture, preterist, AMill, or just the careless attitude of 'I don't care about the Prophetic Word', may be shocked and lose their faith when disaster strikes.

Amill isn't false, Premill is. Anyway, those who have false beliefs may or may not have that kind of attitude. You should not associate a passage like 2 Thessalonians 2 to them as it gives the impression that you're saying anyone who believes in pre-trib or any other false doctrine is damned. You can warn them about not being like those described in that passage, but you should not just associate them with that passage with no explanation behind it.

However, I thank you for your posts 100, 101, 102, above. I have battled the false rapture to heaven doctrine, for years with little if any support.

I, and a number of others, have refuted that doctrine for many years on forums like this one, so I guess you somehow missed that.

The reality is that the best we can do for people who have been trapped into believing they will be raptured, is to show what God actually does plan for His faithful peoples. Ezekiel 34:11-16 tells it the best. Romans 9:24-26 confirms it.

The concern about someone believing in that is that they can start to think that they won't experience any persecution or trouble of any kind because God will take them off of the earth first. But, Christians have experienced persecution and trouble for almost 2,000 years now. Why would that ever change? Some of them say it's pre-trib more in the sense of pre-wrath because we're not appointed to God's wrath, as it says in 1 Thess 5:9, but that verse relates directly to the wrath upon unbelievers on the day Jesus returns (1 Thess 5:2-3). But, they think the rapture occurs 7 years (or maybe 3.5 years) before He returns and that is clearly not taught anywhere in scripture. And, of course, it's not a rapture to heaven regardless of when it happens.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What 7 year Trib? You can't convince me of what you believe when you reference something that isn't taught in scripture. You cannot use Revelation 3:10 to support pre-trib. You can never convince me of that no matter what you do.


Revelation 3:10 is not referring to God's wrath, as I've already shown. It's "the hour of temptation". Temptation is not God's wrath.


You need to learn to look at surrounding verses for context. None of what you're saying fits the theme of what Jesus says in Revelation 2 and 3.

Look at the verses following Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

If we were just going to be taken off of the earth before the hour of temptation/trial occurred, then what is the point of Jesus saying to "hold that fast which thou hast" and what is the point of Him talking about overcoming? Verses 11 and 12 do not support your understanding of verse 10 at all, but instead shows that believers need to stay strong in the faith in order to endure and overcome during the hour of temptation.


You just repeat the exact words you've already said. I've already addressed all of this, so if you have nothing new then there's nothing more I can say than what I've already said. Revelation 4:1 is absolutely NOT a reference to a pre-trib rapture. It relates to John only being given visions and not just of the distant future. The church is referenced multiple times after Revelation 4:1 as can be seen in passages like Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 14:12-13.

The Bible versions that use "temptation" in Rev 3:10 are incorrect. The versions that use "hour of trial" are correct.

The 7-year Trib is "a week" in Daniel 9 that is about the Tribulation Period that is seven years long. Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

In those seven years, God's 21 judgements of wrath, known as the seven seals (Rev 6, Rev 8:1), the seven trumpets (Rev 8:6 through Rev 9 and Rev 11:15), and the seven bowls (Rev 16), are the 21 judgments of God's wrath. That is the "trial" Jesus referred to in Rev 3:10.

The Trib is not about temptations. It's about 21 judgments of God's wrath, and the references cited prove it.

That's an interesting thing for someone to say who tries to say that Revelation 4:1 is a description of the rapture even tough it only mentions John alone there. That's quite a stretch to relate that verse to a pre-trib rapture. Do you not have any clear, straightforward scripture to support your doctrine? It doesn't look like it.

John only wrote about Rev 4:1, just like he did for all of Revelation. The proof is is Rev 1:1 (the sending of the angel to him while he was on Patmos), and Rev 22:8 (where John confirms that everything he heard and saw to write Revelation was shown to him by one angel).

John never left Patmos while receiving his vision of Revelation. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What 7 year Trib? You can't convince me of what you believe when you reference something that isn't taught in scripture. You cannot use Revelation 3:10 to support pre-trib. You can never convince me of that no matter what you do.


Revelation 3:10 is not referring to God's wrath, as I've already shown. It's "the hour of temptation". Temptation is not God's wrath.


You need to learn to look at surrounding verses for context. None of what you're saying fits the theme of what Jesus says in Revelation 2 and 3.

Look at the verses following Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

If we were just going to be taken off of the earth before the hour of temptation/trial occurred, then what is the point of Jesus saying to "hold that fast which thou hast" and what is the point of Him talking about overcoming? Verses 11 and 12 do not support your understanding of verse 10 at all, but instead shows that believers need to stay strong in the faith in order to endure and overcome during the hour of temptation.


You just repeat the exact words you've already said. I've already addressed all of this, so if you have nothing new then there's nothing more I can say than what I've already said. Revelation 4:1 is absolutely NOT a reference to a pre-trib rapture. It relates to John only being given visions and not just of the distant future. The church is referenced multiple times after Revelation 4:1 as can be seen in passages like Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 14:12-13.

The Bible versions that say "temptation" in Rev 3:10 are incorrect. The versions that say "hour of trial" are correct.

The 7-year Trib is "a week" in Daniel 9:27, and that "week" is about the Tribulation Period that is seven years long. Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

In those seven years, God's 21 judgements of wrath, known as the seven seals (Rev 6, Rev 8:1), the seven trumpets (Rev 8:6 through Rev 9 and Rev 11:15), and the seven bowls (Rev 16), are God's wrath that is the "trial" Jesus referred to in Rev 3:10.

The Trib is not about temptations. It's about 21 judgments of God's wrath, and the references cited above prove it. Jesus says in Rev 3:10 that "those who dwell on the earth" will be tried by the hour of trial. The hour of trial is for unbelievers, only. We will kept from the Trib, which means we will not enter it.

You are also missing the context Rev 3:11-12. Verse 11 is about what takes place after the pre-Trib rapture. The crown mentioned is the same crown spoken of in 2 Tim 4:8. Therein, Paul confirms that the Judgment Seat of Christ occurs "on that day," being the day of the pre-Trib rapture. We are in Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ. Verse 12 gives every indication of being about the NHNE (New Heaven and New Earth). Verses 11 & 12 are about what occurs after the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[keras]

We are in Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So; the Church gets to heaven before any Judgment?
That belief borders on insanity. It simply isn't Biblical and cannot happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So; the Church gets to heaven before any Judgment?
That belief borders on insanity. It simply isn't Biblical and cannot happen.

So, when does the Judgment Seat of Christ occur, Mr. Keras? Show me the verse that states when it occurs.

 

[keras]

So, when does the Judgment Seat of Christ occur, Mr. Keras? Show me the verse that states when it occurs.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes....... AFTER Jesus Returns, He will sit on His Throne and Judge the nations.

Why do you even ask such obvious questions? Your foolish and not in the bible: rapture to heaven', is impossible and will never happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So; the Church gets to heaven before any Judgment?
That belief borders on insanity. It simply isn't Biblical and cannot happen.

Karas, judgment of the sort you are claiming for believers, is not part of our future. Judgment of the sort you are claiming carries with it the possibility of condemnation (being sent to the lake of fire). Every future judgment of the sort you are claiming carries with it the possibility of condemnation.

The Judgment Seat of Christ is not a judgment that carries that possibility. It is only for those who are pre-Trib raptured, to assign rewards for our lifetime of behavior on Earth. This judgement takes place on the day of the pre-Trib rapture per 2 Tim 4:8. Apostle Paul wrote the first verse about the pre-Trib rapture in 1 Th 1:10. That is proven to mean a pre-Trib rapture along with Ezekiel 14:21, Rev 6:4, Rev 4:1 and the correct translation of "delivers us" for the context in which it is found in 1 Th 1:10. This is why we are not headed for a potentially condemning judgment. In fact, it's guaranteed that we won't be headed for such a judgment in Romans 8:1 (ESV): There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

[keras]

Karas, judgment of the sort you are claiming for believers, is not part of our future.

But it is: Matthew 25:46 Which does not take place until the Millennium is over, Revelation 20:11-15

Apostle Paul wrote the first verse about the pre-Trib rapture in 1 Th 1:10. That is proven to mean a pre-Trib rapture along with Ezekiel 14:21, Rev 6:4,

Absolute rubbish, none of those scriptures even hint a pre-trib rapture. You are deceived and deluded.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes....... AFTER Jesus Returns, He will sit on His Throne and Judge the nations.

Why do you even ask such obvious questions? Your foolish and not in the bible: rapture to heaven', is impossible and will never happen.

Keras, you challenged me in the past to show you a verse that proves a pre-Trib rapture of the Church to Heaven. That is Rev 4:1. It is proven that Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event because apostle John never left the island of Patmos while receiving his vision of Revelation. It is provable that one angel showed John everything he heard and saw in his vision of Revelation. That is proven true in:

Rev 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

You say that I am foolish. I forgive you.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But it is: Matthew 25:46 Which does not take place until the Millennium is over, Revelation 20:11-15

Absolute rubbish, none of those scriptures even hint a pre-trib rapture. You are deceived and deluded.

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse apostle Paul wrote about the pre-Trib rapture. In the following paragraphs, that verse is proven to be about the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

In the Trib, God's wrath starts no later than the 2nd seal. Wars in the Trib are a certified form of God's wrath per Ezekiel 14:21. The wars in Rev 6:4 will envelop the whole world. That is the "wrath to come" that will have us snatched away before the Trib, per 1 Th 1:10.

"Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 relates to the second usage of "deliverance" in the Bible. That second usage translates to "snatch away." We will be snatched away in 1 Th 1:10. All raptures go straight to Heaven, per the two verses below:

2 Kings 2:11 (ESV): And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Also, Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

 

[keras]

You say that I am foolish. I forgive you.

Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.

This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?

You are missing the most important details of 1 Th 1:10 ESV: ... Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The "wrath to come" is referring to the earliest wrath in the Trib. That is the wrath of simultaneous wars occurring all over this planet, from the 2nd seal. So says Rev 6:4, and Ezekiel 14:21 in the words of God Almighty.

Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. ----- "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

Therefore, 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture. In Rev 3:10, Jesus promised, “I will keep you from the hour of trial …” This is about the simultaneous fulfillment of 1 Th 1:10, Rev 3:10, 1 Th 4:16-17 and Rev 4:1. Before the start of the Trib, we are snatched away and taken straight to Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.

This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?

Anyone who promotes theories and fables which do not have Bible support; are fools.

This verse says nothing about a rapture to heaven, as you falsely believe. Revelation 12:14 tells us how the Lord will deliver His people from the wrath to come. Kept safe in a distant location on earth. Why can't you believe that plainly stated scripture?

1 Th 1:10's "wrath to come" refers to the earliest wrath in the Trib. That is found in the 2nd seal. "Delivers us" is the rapture. We are snatched away from Earth. Rev 4:1 gets us to Heaven.

Rev 12:14 aligns with the midpoint in the Trib. All that at the midpoint pertains to Israel. "The woman" in Rev 12:14 is Israel. The corresponding verse is Matt 24:16.

Rev 12:17 is more new converts being martyred.

We believers do not enter the Trib. Jesus proves that in Rev 3:10, and the simultaneous fulfillment of 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 4:16-17 and Rev 4:1 prove it.

 

[keras]

We believers do not enter the Trib

A statement that is totally and completely refuted by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where it is plainly stated that Gods people are present at the beginning of the Tribulation.
Why must you keep on making a bigger fool of yourself? By now, your wrong interpretations of scripture and all the corrections given by me and others here, have likely made many pre-trib believers, reconsider their beliefs.

That you remain stuck fast in your delusions, is your disgrace.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

A statement that is totally and completely refuted by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where it is plainly stated that Gods people are present at the beginning of the Tribulation.
Why must you keep on making a bigger fool of yourself? By now, your wrong interpretations of scripture and all the corrections given by me and others here, have likely made many pre-trib believers, reconsider their beliefs.

That you remain stuck fast in your delusions, is your disgrace.

You have not refuted the truth: 1 Th 1:10's "wrath to come" refers to the earliest wrath in the Trib. That is found in the 2nd seal. Therefore, that wrath is "the wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. "Delivers us" is the rapture. We are snatched away from Earth. Rev 4:1 gets us to Heaven.

Rev 6:4 and Rev 6:15-17 prove no believers enter the Trib. We are pre-Trib raptured, as above.

Rev 13:7 is about the new converts in the GT that end up in Rev 20:4.

Dan 7:25 is about those same new converts in the GT.

 

[keras]

You have not refuted the truth: 1 Th 1:10's "wrath to come"

The truth in 1 Thess 1:10; is:
We wait for Jesus to Return and we thank Him for protecting us during His wrath against the ungodly peoples.

The rest of your verses have nothing to do with a rapture to heaven. In fact; they count against such an idea.